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Seems like fandom is starting to turn on itself.
A friend of mine recently posted an entry in their LJ that I think everyone needs to be told about.
http://dejana.livejournal.com/152580.ht
http://dejana.livejournal.com/152580.ht
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I started searching for all the names that I have ever posted fic under, and an automated page was created by a bot from my FF.net details.
There may be no personal info on me there, but this is still unsettling - I have not voluntarily contributed my info to this database.
I looked for my newer names but thankfully I'm enough of a non-entity to not be noticed without the help of bots.
I take privacy in fandom super-seriously and I have a lot of problems with Fan History. But I think the issue is more complicated than the way it's being portrayed.
The problem here is that Laura has no qualms about using the wiki to foster her agendas. She sets herself up as an objective historian but has a long history of double-standards. If she does not like you or a certain fandom, there is a good chance she will make it known in the wiki and use every tiny crumb she can find to use against you.
There is no objectivity at all. And if people object and attempt to edit pages, they get banned.
In the case of Astolat (and you know, I almost just typed her real name -- most folks I know use them interchangeably), I do feel as if some personal responsibility does need to come into play. Maybe she's just at the far end of a fannish continuum vis-a-vis fannish privacy issues, but given that she is so incredibly open about her RL identity in fandom and that she borrows from the authority of fannish experience in RL and vice-versa... it just seems kind of, well, sloppy and arrogant to expect that everyone is going to protect her privacy for her. Not that we shouldn't do it anyway -- the principle of the thing is what is important -- but it still kind of rubs me the wrong way.
Um, yes. I never made a distinction between the two. *scratches head*
I'm not defending Laura by any means ... I just think that the best way for people not to connect your RL and fandom name is not to make that information publicly available. And given the extent to which the activities of Astolat and the activities of [NAME REDACTED] coincide or intersect, it gets to the point where it almost requires outright dishonesty on the part of people who are trying to protect her. Which obviously everyone (myself included) is willing to do ... but it still seems as if, as I said before, she's trying to have her cake and eat it, too: benefit simultaneously from her RL and fannish credibility while preserving plausible deniability between the two. :/
I mean, all the discussions about starting Fan Archive are still public in Astolat's LJ, aren't they?
Don't need to; I generally only try to sort out the real names of (1)people I meet in person and (2)people who are interchangeably referred to by either name. I'm sure I could find out if I wanted to (I mean, was sure I could before the F_H wiki blowups); we share several friends in common and I assumed that, if I had any need to contact her IRL, I could find out something. She didn't strike me as someone working hard to keep fandom & RL utterly separated. (I think I can name about six of those on my f'lists.)
But... there's a drastic difference between "this info is available to those who go looking for it" and "I will thrust it upon the world for all to Google."
And it's not a matter of "law" or even, really, "ethics"--ethics are bigger than this. This is a matter of basic social politeness. The stuff that exists across ethical differences; the protocols that prevent free-speech advocates from ripping the veils off women wearing chadors.
Knowing how incoherent fandom's response is... that no shunning effort is going to be greatly effective--I can only hope that OTW's wiki is quickly established as *the* fannish info source, and fandomhistory collapses under the strain of edit & block attempts.
*considers* I don't really think I can agree that it's more complicated. Or, let me correct that, I think that the desire to have a specific site respect a direct request to not publicize the identity connection is always valid and justified, whether or not the identities are scrupulously separated elsewhere. If there are claims being made beyond that, I haven't run across them yet, and they may indeed be exaggerated; such is fandom after all.
But, frex, while I started out using my legal name in fandom, I quickly realized what a bad idea that was (round about job interviews time) and went to all the archives my fic was on to ask the maintainers to please change my name to my new handle. My legal name is still out there, anyone sufficiently interested or determined can still find it. I don't mind that, actually. But I wanted to not have my FMA porn come up on the first page of google hits. If any of the archives had refused my request, I'd have been royally effing pissed and probably have contacted that site's ISP and charged them with violation of the user agreement (supposing it was such, which it usually is). And I'd have considered that entirely justified.
Yes, absolutely. And I completely agree with everything you're saying. The only thing I would add is that unfortunately there is always a chance that a malicious fan with a grudge against you already knows your RL name and at some point may try to link it to your fannish identity. And that's a terrible thing for them to do and it's not something you should take the blame for ... but on the other hand, if you had never revealed your RL identity, it would never have been a risk in the first place.
Do you see what I'm saying? I do want to make clear that by no means do I think a person who has been "outed" is to blame for the crappy behavior of others. I mean, that person is ALWAYS going to be in the wrong, but unfortunately you're the one who is going to have to suffer. And unfortunately I do see in fandom that a lot of folks depend on the goodwill of strangers, which troubles me because as we've seen, there is always the chance of some wacko out there who wants to cause you harm. :/
So a better way to express your analogy might be: If you consider the street your playground, even if there are cars going 60 mph in both directions, there is a significant chance that you're going to get hit. As I already said above, it's not your fault if you get hit, insofar as it is the responsibility of the driver not to run over pedestrians, but I still don't think setting up a lawn chair in the middle of the highway was the brightest idea.
(And now, if you don't mind, I'd like to retire that analogy, as I find it highly distasteful. I have in fact lost people in car accidents, and I would never compare an INTERNET DRAMA to the death of a loved one.)
Anyway, none of this is a defense of Laura. What she did was wrong, and as I said earlier in this thread, I confronted her about this and tried to get her to remove such information months before it became the wank du jour. So, you know, I've got old school cred when it comes to complaining about her and issues of fandom privacy. lol
Nonetheless, I still think it's dumb for fans to think that every single random person on the internet, in fandom or not, is going to respect our community norms about privacy. If folks want to protect their RL information, the best way to do this is not to publish it on the internet in the first place. It amazes me that my position would even be controversial, but such is fandom! :D
Hah, no, I don't think linking me to the Google will be helpful at this point. And I suspect you had to hunt a bit, considering the Google search pages I went through that did not connect their names.
Nonetheless, I still think it's dumb for fans to think that every single random person on the internet, in fandom or not, is going to respect our community norms about privacy. If folks want to protect their RL information, the best way to do this is not to publish it on the internet in the first place. It amazes me that my position would even be controversial, but such is fandom! :D
Well, for me it's like 'you should lock your doors/use a deadbolt/have a security system.' Different people use different systems-- I lock my doors, not all of my neighbors do. But no one deserves to have their front door opened and their TV removed because their feeling about security doesn't match with others'.
Um, no. :/ And, actually, any LJ fan of Astolat's series of novels who goes looking for a journal or community under that name can find that information, so I consider it HIGHLY visible.
But no one deserves to have their front door opened and their TV removed because their feeling about security doesn't match with others'.
Where did I say that they deserved it? Haven't I been meticulous in saying that other people are not at fault for the crappy behavior of others? It's frustrating when people ascribe arguments to me that I didn't make.
Her real name is pretty widely known, though obviously not universally, but she has always asked fans not to put it in writing or post it, and she has never done so herself; she doesn't mind fans knowing who she is in RL, but she'd rather that people who only know her through her pro novels not be able to Google her and find her fan identity. She is, however, completely public in RL about being a fan and writing fanfic; she just doesn't tell nonfans the name under which she does it.
Not that who she is really matters, of course, Someone who has been in fandom for five minutes and written one comment in someone's journal has as much right to privacy, to having the distinctions between their fannish and RL identity respected, as someone who has been in fandom for thirty-five years and done umpteen zillion famous things.
And looking at her fandoms (HP, dS, X-Men, Highlander) I've been around those fandoms a while. And... still never heard of her. So, the big thing I'm having trouble with? The blanket statement: "I don't know anyone in fandom who doesn't know what Astolat's real name is."
I was just raising my hand and pointing out that there are probably a lot of people who don't.
Hmmm, this discussion is interesting because IIRC one of the arguments OTW made in order to defend not making clear the fannish identities of its board members was that everybody in fandom who might need to know this information already knows it. And that's certainly true in my own circumscribed fannish universe, but clearly, not in many others. So it kind of defeats their own claim at a sort of ad hoc transparency.
Anyway.
And again; I've never even heard the name "Astolat" or "shallott".
Hope this clears that up.
After all we make friends in fandom and send each other mail, of course real names will come out as well as addresses. I don't think it's unduly burdensome to not connect someone's fannish identity to their real identity when it's a matter of omitting information.
I know a couple of individuals who'd prefer that their names not be linked with certain gay/Pride Week activities because they dont' want to have to come out at work, or they're not out to their parents. That doesn't seem to be a burden to me, as much as this is part of how the community works.
This means I've missed out on a lot of fannish experience (no mail, no meetups, no cons, no phone calls, etc.), but while there are community standards, there are always going to be people who break them. I mean, I’ve seen RL information, photos, embarrassing personal info, etc. get passed around fandom all the time, unfortunately. :( And that's just idle gossip and curiosity ... in any community there are also going to be malicious grudgy people who will stop at nothing to make you miserable, because that's just human nature. Maybe I just have a pretty negative view of fandom (and people) in general, but there seems to be a prevailing idea that everyone lives up to these ideals about our community, and in my experience that's just not true.
From the moment I set up my first ff.net account, I knew that for every person I met in fandom, there were many more lurkers, and even with the people I think I know, I don't *really* know who they are. The internet is much bigger than either fandom and its community mores ... and I know that even within fandom, not everyone is nice, sensible, or emotionally stable. :/ In the case of Astolat, I do think that some folks want the benefits of publicity without having to deal with the dangers, and as understandable as that might be, I just don't know how realistic it is.
There is also a separate argument to be made that in Astolat's case, it's not merely a matter of omitting information, because thanks to her involvement in various organizations (*tries to be obscure*), her RL and fannish identities intersect to the point where it actually distorts history (and present-day reality) to pretend that they are 2 different people. So that it becomes not a question of just expecting other folks not to make the connection, but requiring them to outright lie in misrepresenting the actual history of the organization, etc. As I've said elsewhere, I think this is an important and valid point, but the principle of not outing fellow fans is so paramount that it still doesn't mean that information should be made "official" in a wiki that seeks to be the official historical archive of fandom.
"Eh, no, it's okay, but I'd appreciate it if you didn't spread it around" can be code for "Oh my GOD, I wish nobody knew that, but if so-and-so knew how much this freaked me out, things would get even worse."
There's an absolute psychotic who managed to get her hands on my real name, many years ago, and I've just been very very relieved that she's never considered that something to use against me. At the time, I thought she was one of my best friends.
That’s not a defense of anything Laura has done. Just because someone is dumb enough to do something that is not in their own self-interest, it doesn't make it ok to exploit their mistake. But I still do think, however, that if a person puts RL information about themselves publicly on the internet, it is ... misguided of them to think that any random person who runs across that info will follow the principles of the community to which she belongs.
Now, I admit, my nickname "Cat" is my handle online as well as in RL, but it's a nickname and not even closely related to my real name.
Do I think it's right to post people's personal details where anyone can Google them? No. I don't.
Do I think that people should take appropriate steps so that it can't happen? Yes. I do. If people want my address/cell phone number it goes through email not on any board. Not even onto my IJ.
And I have to know them for a very long time before that goes out there.
So; there's bad on both sides. Asto-whosit for not keeping her big fingers shut and protecting her information, and F_H for just blurting things out there without any thought to people wanting/not wanting to be included.
(And yeah, that was an exaggeration, but I really don't think 'well, she was asking for it' is an excuse for this level of bullshit.)
I never said she was 'asking for it'. I pointed out that she was foolish to expect others to protect her privacy. It is her job to protect herself, and to not take unreasonable risks.
Rape is in a completely different category and as a rape survivor I find that deeply insulting.
Short skirts =/= putting personal details on the internet, where, apparently, most people can find them easily.
I do not think that what was done was right. Quite the opposite. I think it was a horrid invasion of privacy and should be retracted and apologised for post-haste.
The thing that keeps tripping up the argument, though, is that several people here have stated that the information, if one travels in the 'correct circles' as it were, is easily found. IF that is true, and IF the wronged party was the one to put it out there, then she is, partially, to blame.
Because all this debate got me curious, I hit Google. Even with
(And no, I don't have a dog in this fight, except for maybe the fact that I've always been fanatical about fandom privacy and frustrated with people who are lackadaisical about it and then blame others for their own lack of discretion. As far as personal connections go, one of the people Laura outed is a friend of mine and while I was on friendly terms with Laura up to this point -- partially in the hope of getting her to change some of her policies on these issues -- I am not anymore.)
Anyway, I could link you to a public post (that I found using Google) where Astolat makes the connection to her real name explicit. But obviously emotions in fandom are running so high right now that this probably wouldn't be a good idea.
Thanks again.
In addition to the LJ entry linked in the original post, see http://ithiliana.livejournal.com/92
Thank you very much for letting us know about this. This is valuable information.