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starwolf_oakley ([info]starwolf_oakley) wrote in [info]scans_daily,
@ 2009-08-05 17:37:00

Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Entry tags:char: batgirl/oracle/barbara gordon, char: black canary/dinah lance, char: huntress/helena bertinelli, creator: gail simone, creator: joe bennett, title: birds of prey

BOP #68: A canary or a "mock"ing bird? or The Sexual History of Helena Bertinelli
The first page of Cry For Justice #2 has caused some controversy on this board and elsewhere. But it's not like that kind of "behavior" is unheard of in Huntress' history.



First, Babs and the girls talk about Savant, who kidnapped Black Canary and chained her to a fridge bed.

Birds of Prey #68 - Page 5

Uh-oh. Anyone know the exact issues?

Birds of Prey #68 - Page 6

This was revealed in OUTSIDERS #12, but not the circumstances. Nightwing must have told Oracle. Because that's not weird at all.

Ah, so Roy is "quick to let fly." No wonder Cheshire got pregnant!

Birds of Prey #68 - Page 7

Well, give she's now about Roy's age due to that Lazarus Pit dip, it's less "mother and son" these days.

How does that date go?

Birds of Prey #68 - Page 22

Sheesh, I thought they only kept the masks on in ULTIMATE or ALL-STAR stories. Supposedly Gail Simone wrote this so Helene could find realize she deserved better in the romance department. Is a threesome with Hal Jordan and Lady Blackhawk really better? Well, I doubt they'd keep their masks on.


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[info]parsimonia
2009-08-06 12:16 am UTC (link)
I have to say I'm growing really weary of hearing about how Huntress and Tarantula are Devin Grayson's Mary Sues.

Frankly, I don't think I'd enjoy the work of a writer who did not either put a bit of themselves into a character or spent a lot of time imagining what it would be like in that character's shoes.

Why is it that Huntress is a Mary Sue for Devin Grayson? Does that mean Dinah Lance is a Mary Sue for Gail Simone? Does that mean Batman is a Mary Sue for every single writer he's ever had? No Batman male Batman writer has ever had him sleep with a hot woman and think to himself "that'd be pretty sweet, gee, I wish I was him"? And even if all those examples are cases of Mary Sues, so what? Superheroes (and to an extent, their villains) are Sue-ish by their very nature.

If a story or its characters are ridiculous, boring, unbelievable, or so saccharine you have to visit the dentist to get a cavity filled afterwards, then that is the problem, not the relationship the writer has with the character he or she writes. (Besides, none of those above examples have ever reached Twilight-levels of Sueishness.)

Despite the fun of joking around it, I really don't like the idea of sexualizing the relationship between Dick and Bruce in actual canon. But last time I read the Nightwing/Huntress story, I was not left with the impression that that was the only reason Dick slept with Helena. Dick likes people. He likes women, he likes making people feel better, and Helena's tough, smart, and attractive. There's a lot that could attract Dick to Helena (and vice versa) that has nothing to do with Bruce.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)


[info]jaybee3
2009-08-06 12:41 am UTC (link)
You make a good point. I actually liked the idea of Huntress/Dick at the time because of the stories that could have come from it. But it was short-circuited pretty quickly. I don't think it Devin Greyson's fault. Editorial paired him with Babs pretty quickly afterward. But Dick does like women and he's pretty faithful to whomever he's currently involved with. Another reason why he's such a likable character.

But as for Mary Sues, IMO most writers have their own Mary Sues in their works. No matter how big they are. And it need not be a negative thing, just a character whom the author created and serves as an avatar for (that's how I view it at least, others use the term differently). Damien Wayne is Grant Morrison's current Mary Sue/Gary Stu. For obvious personal reasons Stargirl has served as a Mary Sue for Geoff Johns. Each writer who has written Batman seems to feel the need to have their own personal "girlfriend" for Bruce that they created. Denny O'Neil/Talia, Engleheart/Silver St. Cloud, Rucka/Sasha Boudeaux, Morrison/Jezebel Jet. They are as much Mary Sues to me than Tarantula is to Devin Greyson. But I do think the term gets thrown around too much, I certainly do it. I shouldn't have done it in this case. I like Huntress too much.

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[info]scottyquick
2009-08-06 02:32 am UTC (link)
Tarantula wasn't meant to be a girlfriend, she was very much meant to be a negative, abusive, destructive force in Dick's life.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)


[info]batcookies
2009-08-06 02:40 am UTC (link)
Indeed. She's a bad person that was trying to be a good guy, but in the end she didn't have the right stuff. In the end she cowardly tried to kill Nightwing, howling obscenities all the while, rather than go to jail. And he beat her, with ease, while on crutches. I'll never understand people that claim Tarantula was a "self insert". If that's what Devin Grayson honestly sees herself as, then she needs help. But I think it's more likely that people are just seeing something that's not there.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)


[info]starwolf_oakley
2009-08-06 03:31 am UTC (link)
Tarantula may have been a former FBI agent, a skilled fighter and ranted about "class warfare issues" regarding crime, but I don't think that made her Devin Grayson's "Mary Sue." To me, Mary Sue means "irritatingly perfect."

I don't mind the "Born Again 2: Electric Boogaloo" Nightwing story as much as other fans, but I am curious where the story was supposed to go before INFINITE CRISIS. Batman telling Nightwing "You lost sight of the value of Roland Desmond's life; don't lose sight of the value of your own" is letting Dick off the hook (for Batman).

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)


[info]runespoor7
2009-08-06 07:08 pm UTC (link)
IIRC, Nightwing was supposed to infiltrate the Society of Super-Villains. Thus the Renegade arc. But instead Devin Grayson received orders to have Dick back in the Bat-fold and Deathstroke destroy Bludhaven.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


(Anonymous)
2009-08-07 03:53 am UTC (link)
My (potentially controversial, so apologies) theory goes like this:

Devin's self-insert/'Mary Sue' was Nightwing.

Evidence:

1)Devin Grayson was not born Devin Grayson, she changed her name to denote her deep identification with the character.

2)A lot of the meta and fanfic she's written re: Nightwing's sexuality overlap with much of what she's written about herself in those areas.

3)Reading the Nightwing/Tarantula debacle felt like listening in on somebody's therapy session.

This isn't to say that all of her stories were awful. I liked quite a few of them. I even used to regularly defend her Nightwing and Titans work on an old Titans mailing list I used to belong to. She did a lot interesting, character driven stories that stood out from what the rest of the Bat-writers of that era were doing, and (usually) in a good way.

But she sometimes objectified and fetishized the character to a weird degree, and some of those weirder story beats, IMHO, read as if she regularly vacillated between wanting to do Nightwing or be Nightwing -- sometimes within the same issue.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)


[info]runespoor7
2009-08-07 02:39 pm UTC (link)
I don't see the contradiction/weirdness in both wanting to be like someone and being in love with someone (or, like you put it, wanting to do someone and wanting to be someone); after all, don't a lot of us fall in love with people we admire? There's a fine line between hero worship and crush, etc etc.

About Nightwing being Devin Grayson's Mary Sue, I think you're right on the money. In one interview where she was questioned about Tarantula being her Mary Sue, she answered that she thought it'd be much truer to say that Dick was her Mary Sue. Incidentally, I'm not sure if she really understood what the term 'Mary Sue' meant/means/is used as, in part because like batcookies said, it's used any way nowadays. As far as self-inserts go, however, I'd say her most probable self-insert was Babs. Her Babs says a lot of things, particularly about people's psychologies, that seem to reflect how Devin Grayson intended the portrayal to go. Sometimes it reminds me a little of how Hermione was depicted in Harry Potter.

...And as for objectifying Nightwing's character... she's not the first nor the last writer to have had characters remark on him being beautiful.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2009-08-07 08:31 pm UTC

[info]sistermagpie
2009-08-06 01:26 am UTC (link)
I have to say, that was always my impression of Nightwing/Huntress too. I really never thought he was sleeping with her at all because she reminded him of Bruce (hell, if there's somebody he's slept with who's Bruce-like I think Babs fits that bill far more than Huntress, who doesn't remind me of Bruce at all). Iirc, didn't she basically just offer it? I seem to remember her basically saying "Don't you ever get..." And Nightwing said "Lonely?" Seemed more like two single people wanted to have sex that night and there wasn't much reason they shouldn't. (I thought it got stupid with Barbara calling and identifying that he was there--this and that Nightwing annual seem to be where the manwhore stuff comes from and he just isn't.)

Anyway, also with Tarantula I've never gotten the Mary Sue thing because she always seemed so completely wrong, but I guess what people mean is that Dick for some reason sticks with her in spite of that. Like she's given way too much power over him for who she actually is and all that.

Was it Babs who actually put it in terms of Helena being like Bruce? Because that could just be some massive projecting. She's got a lot of opinions on Bruce/Dick (none of them sexual!) that have a lot to do with her own frustrations with Bruce, I think. And it would be IC for her to feel that when she's angry at Helena for the incident too.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)


[info]mysteryfan
2009-08-06 02:55 am UTC (link)
Was it Babs who actually put it in terms of Helena being like Bruce?

Yes, in a way that seemed odd to me, IIRC. Out of the blue, unless there's more I don't know about. Because that could just be some massive projecting. She's got a lot of opinions on Bruce/Dick (none of them sexual!) that have a lot to do with her own frustrations with Bruce, I think. Maybe on the frustrations with Bruce, Heh on the none of it sexuall! (Totally agreed:)

Also, much agreed that I see a lot more in common with Bruce and Babs than Bruce and Helena.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)


[info]rorge
2009-08-06 02:42 pm UTC (link)
Babs actually said "I get that she reminds you of... I get that she feels familiar," but she doesn't specifically say it's Bruce that she thinks Helena reminds Dick of.

I guess if you're looking for it, it seems obvious, but it could easily be Barbara implying that Helena reminds Dick of Barbara herself. That was my read of it.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]jaybee3
2009-08-06 03:07 am UTC (link)
I think the insinuation in Nightwing/Huntress was that Helena slept with Dick to get closer to Batman, but I don't have the exact verbage in front of me. Or it could have been after the fact that someone came up with that. I'm not entirely sure since the Dick/Helena fling has been portrayed by different writers in different ways (she wanted more/he wanted more/both that it was a mistake). It happened only once but it seems to get brought up a lot (in-comic) since then.

I know Tarantula was evil (thinking she was good) but I seem to recall the big debate at the time was because she very clearly seemed to have raped Dick when he was in no position to consent, yet Devin Grayson and DC (forget who edited NW at the time) started equivocating on whether it actually constituted "rape". And the fact that Tarantula basically controlled (for lack of a better term) an out-of-it NW for months didn't help either. It was a big debate at the time IIRC.

And I have resolved never to use the words "M*** S**" again. Everyone's right they have lost all meaning these days. Apologies all around.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)


[info]sistermagpie
2009-08-06 03:28 am UTC (link)
Now that people say it, I remember that now. She did want to get close to the Bat family. But the way I remember it it wasn't straight-out manipulation. More like she wanted to get close to Nightwing but did genuinely want to sleep with him since, why not? But in the end she told him that because once she got to know him she liked the relationship (such as it was) for itself.

But I totally remember the whole Mary Sue debate. I use the term myself, but usually only to refer to very specific things that I don't like in the canon. Like, there are characters that I wouldn't label a Mary Sue but I might point to a moment and say I didn't like it because it made them one in that scene by warping things in their favor. I was always a bit confused by it when referring to Tarantula. But then, I always considered it straight-up rape as well and thought any backpeddling was just creepy.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]aaron_bourque
2009-08-06 02:53 pm UTC (link)
I think the insinuation in Nightwing/Huntress was that Helena slept with Dick to get closer to Batman,

Wow. That's not the impression I got. Her whole seductress thing, and the way she always talked about Batman at the time, I got the impression that she was wrongheadedly trying to drive a wedge between Bruce and Dick, like she could somehow have an ally in Dick if his dick was in her. It didn't help that she was shotgunning her bile about Batman in almost every appearance she made at the time.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]parsimonia
2009-08-06 03:00 pm UTC (link)
I think there are some things that *Huntress* has in common with Batman, but as Bruce and Helena they are pretty different, if that makes sense. And yeah, Babs is far more like Bruce in personality. In fact, with him calling Babs right afterwards, I would think Babs would be more likely to be someone's avatar. (And yes, I believe it was Babs who said something like "honey, I know she may seem familiar to you, but...", but he also had a dream where Batman found out about him and Helena and got pissed off.)

this and that Nightwing annual seem to be where the manwhore stuff comes from and he just isn't.

Yes. Uhg, the idea that he would sleep with Babs when she's so vulnerable and while he's engaged to Kory just doesn't fly.

Dick for some reason sticks with her in spite of that. Like she's given way too much power over him for who she actually is and all that.

Part of that I can get because it was such a fucked-up abusive relationship, and the victim in such situation often feels misplaced guilt or that they can "fix" the other person etc (and given their vigilantism and their differing styles/methods at that, Dick is very focused on reforming her). Additionally, whether it was good or bad editorially speaking, every bat-book at that time was leading up to War Games. And War Games was an extreme exercise in Murphy's Law, where everything that could possibly go wrong went wrong, and everyone was having problems and at each other's throats.

I get the feeling that all of that was somehow meant to be cathartic, and after repeatedly hitting rock-bottom, he was supposed to be happy and flying high again. Unfortunately, we had to wait all the way until Tomasi's run, and lovely though that was, it was sad.

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[info]runespoor7
2009-08-06 07:14 pm UTC (link)
In fact, with him calling Babs right afterwards, I would think Babs would be more likely to be someone's avatar.

I agree with that. In fact, if I had to pick one female character who I think might be the closest to being Devin Grayson's self-insert/Mary Sue, I'd say Babs hands down.

after repeatedly hitting rock-bottom, he was supposed to be happy and flying high again. Unfortunately, we had to wait all the way until Tomasi's run

To be fair to that annual, it ended on the idea that Dick needed to find who he was so he'd be happy with himself, so Andreyko didn't get everything wrong.

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(Anonymous)
2009-08-06 04:09 am UTC (link)
Not following the title, not entirely up to speed on the character. But this is what I've managed to piece together as far as what constitutes Tarantula's rap as a Mary Sue:

First, not just the fact that a female character had sex with Nightwing. The fact that author Devin Grayson herself seems to show herself as having a constant fixation on the character. One sees an example of this in the novelization of "Rise of Sin Tzu" which she worked on, and the character of an FBI profiler who is so thoroughly enamored of 'wing that you'd have to have him a) openly drooling and b) openly declaring himself out of the closet to make it any more obvious.

There's also the idea of Tarantula herself somehow managing to one-up most of the Bat family, including somehow getting Batman's consent to operate within Gotham City (I recall her being there at some point, though I am aware Nightwing is a Bludhaven title. I forget where exactly, possible during the War Games arc) despite the fact that he's far less permissive with far more established, possibly more capable characters like Spoiler and Huntress. Anything that disqualifies them for his approval could equally be applied to Tarantula since she was literally gunning for Blockbuster's life.

Again, aware that I may be missing facts and viewpoints here, this is my view from outside the window looking in

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[info]parsimonia
2009-08-06 02:38 pm UTC (link)
Not having read Rise of Sin Tzu I can only speculate, but part of Devin Grayson's characterization of Dick tends to be that a) it doesn't take much for him to sleep with someone and b) the dude is HOT and very few people don't notice that. I don't fully agree with that interpretation of the character, but that's her view and he probably is her favourite character. *shrug*

Tarantula, IIRC, followed Nightwing to Gotham City during War Games, and Batman accepted her help because Nightwing said he'd take responsibility for her. Bruce trusts Dick, and they were in a position at that point where the bat-team needed all the help they could get. By that point she *had* killed Blockbuster, but I don't think Bruce really found out the details until after War Games ended.

I just find it very disturbing and rather unfair that people call Tarantula Devin Grayson's Mary Sue, given what Tarantula did to Dick.

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(Anonymous)
2009-08-06 02:55 pm UTC (link)
Ah okay, viewpoints are a little clearer now.

I think mostly the view of Tarantula as a Mary Sue stems from the fact that Devin -does- find Nightwing hot and constantly works that in. Only instead of finding a way to work that out instead of established canon, she creates her own original, strong female character who gains immediate (or speedy perhaps, if not immediate) acceptance in the in-character communities and immediate placement in the ongoing storylines. So instead of doing something like say, rekindling the relationship with Babs, or expanding and making more significant the relationship with Huntress, Tarantula comes across less like fandom and more like self-gratifying wish fulfillment.

"Mary Sue" may have been originally intended to imply an impossibly-perfect, possibly canon-breaking character, but its secondary meaning seems to have become a character that its creator lives vicariously through, instead of merely personifying. Which seems to by why Tarantula comes across as such, for the reasons I've perceived here.

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[info]parsimonia
2009-08-06 03:10 pm UTC (link)
she creates her own original, strong female character who gains immediate (or speedy perhaps, if not immediate) acceptance in the in-character communities and immediate placement in the ongoing storylines.

Well, there's another element in there, and that's that (as I understand it) when someone creates an original character, they get royalties when it's used again. But the point of Tarantula was to utterly fuck up Dick's life, (which tied into the everyone's-life-sucks-right-now setting of War Games), and I don't see how that would be flattering or ego-boosting if that were the writer's avatar.

It's definitely debatable whether or not it was a good idea to make Dick fall into that long downward spiral, but given that was the story it would not make sense for Dick to be patching things up with Babs or leaning on Helena for support at that point. The trajectory of Tarantula from the get-go seemed to be disaster, IMO, and I don't see how that would be wish-fulfilling.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]sistermagpie, 2009-08-06 03:16 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]starwolf_oakley, 2009-08-06 03:55 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sistermagpie, 2009-08-06 04:07 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]parsimonia, 2009-08-06 05:24 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2009-08-06 05:46 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]runespoor7, 2009-08-06 06:35 pm UTC
The term Mary Sue really needs to die. - [info]batcookies, 2009-08-07 12:59 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sistermagpie, 2009-08-06 05:46 pm UTC

[info]aaron_bourque
2009-08-06 03:03 pm UTC (link)
I have to say I'm growing really weary of hearing about how Huntress and Tarantula are Devin Grayson's Mary Sues.

Tarantula gets called a Mary Sue because she took over the plot of Nightwing for little bit, oh and also: she raped Dick Grayson and was never punished for it. She briefly went to prison, but that was for her other crimes. It didn't help that, reading barely between the lines, Ms. Devin Grayson was projecting her own issues with sexuality and sexual trauma and crushing hard on a fictional character onto a character for no reason than to work out her own issues.

Huntress gets called a Mary Sue because she almost always seemed to win her arguments with Batman about how far masked heroes were supposed to go, or at least Batman would rarely respond in a meaningful way. Every. Single. One. Of her appearances for a while in the early 90s seemed to be about how much she hated Batman's efficacy, and how if she weren't following his insipid rules she would be a more effective anti-crime force.

And Batman just sort of stood there.

. . .

Bear in mind that these occurrences were before the definition of Mary Sue was stretched near the point of breaking (being in the early 00s in the midst of the Harry Potter-Mary Sue insanity in the former case, and in the latter, in the 90s before Mary Sue even became a mainstream Nerd/Geek term).

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)


[info]parsimonia
2009-08-06 03:31 pm UTC (link)
she raped Dick Grayson and was never punished for it. She briefly went to prison, but that was for her other crimes. It didn't help that, reading barely between the lines, Ms. Devin Grayson was projecting her own issues with sexuality and sexual trauma and crushing hard on a fictional character onto a character for no reason than to work out her own issues.

Okay, I have to say that I think you have to make a lot of assumptions about Grayson's life and personal history to make such a claim, and IMO the accusation borders on (if not crosses the line to) personally attacking her.

I agree that there should have been something more in canon confronting the rape as rape, but unfortunately it would have been impossible for her to be arrested for raping Dick without revealing his secret identity (not to mention it might have implicated Dick as an accessory to murder). She did go to prison, and as we saw in Secret Six a little while ago, it was one of the bigger/high security prisons and she was in there for life. And now she's dead.

Huntress gets called a Mary Sue because she almost always seemed to win her arguments with Batman about how far masked heroes were supposed to go, or at least Batman would rarely respond in a meaningful way. Every. Single. One.

I gotta disagree. Huntress's thing used to be that it's okay to kill people or be more brutal when the original crime was heinous. Batman's has always been that killing was wrong, and frequently espouses the idea that excessive brutality isn't usually effective or moral. Huntress eventually came around to Batman's side of things, but by way of Babs and the Birds of Prey's influence. In my mind those old 90s confrontations with Batman never seem to go anywhere, and neither one of them ever really "won" the argument.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)


[info]aaron_bourque
2009-08-06 05:50 pm UTC (link)
"Okay, I have to say that I think you have to make a lot of assumptions about Grayson's life and personal history to make such a claim, and IMO the accusation borders on (if not crosses the line to) personally attacking her."

She's on record as being both a victim of sexual assault and a bisexual.

"Huntress's thing used to be that it's okay to kill people or be more brutal when the original crime was heinous."

Yes. Used to be. Years later she softened a little bit. But at the time, whenever she'd go off on that tangent, Batman was rarely shown to reply in any meaningful way. It's one of the reasons it took a long time for me to like the character.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)


[info]angelophile
2009-08-06 07:46 pm UTC (link)
Her being on record as being both a victim of sexual assault and a bisexual doesn't justify making assumptions about her "issues" with sexuality or her motivations for writing the story as she did, unless she has raised that directly. You may see a connection, but I have to agree that making assumptions about how those experiences affected her and projecting how she dealt with them in your view makes me very uncomfortable.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]aaron_bourque, 2009-08-06 10:41 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]angelophile, 2009-08-07 12:10 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]aaron_bourque, 2009-08-07 02:58 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]angelophile, 2009-08-07 09:29 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]aaron_bourque, 2009-08-07 04:20 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]starwolf_oakley, 2009-08-07 06:20 pm UTC

[info]parsimonia
2009-08-12 03:11 am UTC (link)
Sorry, I'm just catching up with this thread now.

I supposed this may be something we'll have to agree to disagree on, but even considering your points here, I still feel uncomfortable with the implications made by such an assessment.

But at the time, whenever she'd go off on that tangent, Batman was rarely shown to reply in any meaningful way. It's one of the reasons it took a long time for me to like the character.

Well, perhaps there is room for a bit of the pseudo father/daughter relationship that is sometimes implied between them to explain that: Huntress rants about how Batman doesn't know what he's doing and that she knows better than him, etc, which does come off a bit as a rebellious teenager kind of thing (albeit with subject matter not usually common to parents and teenagers). IDK, I really haven't read enough of the earlier interactions between the two characters to have that firm a grasp of Batman's reactions to her. I just have the impression that he was usually pretty down on her and her methods.

(reposted comment for unfinished sentence)

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