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Tweak says, "Where are Sam and Dean?!"

starwolf_oakley (starwolf_oakley) wrote in scans_daily,
@ 2009-08-05 17:37:00

Entry tags:

char: batgirl/oracle/barbara gordon, char: black canary/dinah lance, char: huntress/helena bertinelli, creator: gail simone, creator: joe bennett, title: birds of prey

BOP #68: A canary or a "mock"ing bird? or The Sexual History of Helena Bertinelli
The first page of Cry For Justice #2 has caused some controversy on this board and elsewhere. But it's not like that kind of "behavior" is unheard of in Huntress' history.

First, Babs and the girls talk about Savant, who kidnapped Black Canary and chained her to a ~~fridge~~ bed.

Uh-oh. Anyone know the exact issues?

This was revealed in OUTSIDERS #12, but not the circumstances. Nightwing must have told Oracle. Because that's not weird at all.

Ah, so Roy is "quick to let fly." No wonder Cheshire got pregnant!

Well, give she's now about Roy's age due to that Lazarus Pit dip, it's less "mother and son" these days.

How does that date go?

Sheesh, I thought they only kept the masks on in ULTIMATE or ALL-STAR stories. Supposedly Gail Simone wrote this so Helene could find realize she deserved better in the romance department. Is a threesome with Hal Jordan and Lady Blackhawk really better? Well, I doubt they'd keep their masks on.

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sistermagpie
2009-08-06 01:26 am UTC (link)

I have to say, that was always my impression of Nightwing/Huntress too. I really never thought he was sleeping with her at all because she reminded him of Bruce (hell, if there's somebody he's slept with who's Bruce-like I think Babs fits that bill far more than Huntress, who doesn't remind me of Bruce at all). Iirc, didn't she basically just offer it? I seem to remember her basically saying "Don't you ever get..." And Nightwing said "Lonely?" Seemed more like two single people wanted to have sex that night and there wasn't much reason they shouldn't. (I thought it got stupid with Barbara calling and identifying that he was there--this and that Nightwing annual seem to be where the manwhore stuff comes from and he just isn't.)

Anyway, also with Tarantula I've never gotten the Mary Sue thing because she always seemed so completely wrong, but I guess what people mean is that Dick for some reason sticks with her in spite of that. Like she's given way too much power over him for who she actually is and all that.

Was it Babs who actually put it in terms of Helena being like Bruce? Because that could just be some massive projecting. She's got a lot of opinions on Bruce/Dick (none of them sexual!) that have a lot to do with her own frustrations with Bruce, I think. And it would be IC for her to feel that when she's angry at Helena for the incident too.

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mysteryfan
2009-08-06 02:55 am UTC (link)

Was it Babs who actually put it in terms of Helena being like Bruce?

Yes, in a way that seemed odd to me, IIRC. Out of the blue, unless there's more I don't know about. Because that could just be some massive projecting. She's got a lot of opinions on Bruce/Dick (none of them sexual!) that have a lot to do with her own frustrations with Bruce, I think. Maybe on the frustrations with Bruce, Heh on the none of it sexuall! (Totally agreed:)

Also, much agreed that I see a lot more in common with Bruce and Babs than Bruce and Helena.

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	rorge 2009-08-06 02:42 pm UTC (link)
	Babs actually said "I get that she reminds you of... I get that she feels familiar," but she doesn't specifically say it's Bruce that she thinks Helena reminds Dick of. I guess if you're looking for it, it seems obvious, but it could easily be Barbara implying that Helena reminds Dick of Barbara herself. That was my read of it. (Reply to this) (Parent)

jaybee3
2009-08-06 03:07 am UTC (link)

I think the insinuation in Nightwing/Huntress was that Helena slept with Dick to get closer to Batman, but I don't have the exact verbage in front of me. Or it could have been after the fact that someone came up with that. I'm not entirely sure since the Dick/Helena fling has been portrayed by different writers in different ways (she wanted more/he wanted more/both that it was a mistake). It happened only once but it seems to get brought up a lot (in-comic) since then.

I know Tarantula was evil (thinking she was good) but I seem to recall the big debate at the time was because she very clearly seemed to have raped Dick when he was in no position to consent, yet Devin Grayson and DC (forget who edited NW at the time) started equivocating on whether it actually constituted "rape". And the fact that Tarantula basically controlled (for lack of a better term) an out-of-it NW for months didn't help either. It was a big debate at the time IIRC.

And I have resolved never to use the words "M*** S**" again. Everyone's right they have lost all meaning these days. Apologies all around.

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sistermagpie
2009-08-06 03:28 am UTC (link)

Now that people say it, I remember that now. She did want to get close to the Bat family. But the way I remember it it wasn't straight-out manipulation. More like she wanted to get close to Nightwing but did genuinely want to sleep with him since, why not? But in the end she told him that because once she got to know him she liked the relationship (such as it was) for itself.

But I totally remember the whole Mary Sue debate. I use the term myself, but usually only to refer to very specific things that I don't like in the canon. Like, there are characters that I wouldn't label a Mary Sue but I might point to a moment and say I didn't like it because it made them one in that scene by warping things in their favor. I was always a bit confused by it when referring to Tarantula. But then, I always considered it straight-up rape as well and thought any backpeddling was just creepy.

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aaron_bourque
2009-08-06 02:53 pm UTC (link)

I think the insinuation in Nightwing/Huntress was that Helena slept with Dick to get closer to Batman,

Wow. That's not the impression I got. Her whole seductress thing, and the way she always talked about Batman at the time, I got the impression that she was wrongheadedly trying to drive a wedge between Bruce and Dick, like she could somehow have an ally in Dick if his dick was in her. It didn't help that she was shotgunning her bile about Batman in almost every appearance she made at the time.

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parsimonia
2009-08-06 03:00 pm UTC (link)

I think there are some things that *Huntress* has in common with Batman, but as Bruce and Helena they are pretty different, if that makes sense. And yeah, Babs is far more like Bruce in personality. In fact, with him calling Babs right afterwards, I would think Babs would be more likely to be someone's avatar. (And yes, I believe it was Babs who said something like "honey, I know she may seem familiar to you, but...", but he also had a dream where Batman found out about him and Helena and got pissed off.)

this and that Nightwing annual seem to be where the manwhore stuff comes from and he just isn't.

Yes. Uhg, the idea that he would sleep with Babs when she's so vulnerable and while he's engaged to Kory just doesn't fly.

Dick for some reason sticks with her in spite of that. Like she's given way too much power over him for who she actually is and all that.

Part of that I can get because it was such a fucked-up abusive relationship, and the victim in such situation often feels misplaced guilt or that they can "fix" the other person etc (and given their vigilantism and their differing styles/methods at that, Dick is very focused on reforming her). Additionally, whether it was good or bad editorially speaking, every bat-book at that time was leading up to War Games. And War Games was an extreme exercise in Murphy's Law, where everything that could possibly go wrong went wrong, and everyone was having problems and at each other's throats.

I get the feeling that all of that was somehow meant to be cathartic, and after repeatedly hitting rock-bottom, he was supposed to be happy and flying high again. Unfortunately, we had to wait all the way until Tomasi's run, and lovely though that was, it was sad.

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runespoor7
2009-08-06 07:14 pm UTC (link)

In fact, with him calling Babs right afterwards, I would think Babs would be more likely to be someone's avatar.

I agree with that. In fact, if I had to pick one female character who I think might be the closest to being Devin Grayson's self-insert/Mary Sue, I'd say Babs hands down.

after repeatedly hitting rock-bottom, he was supposed to be happy and flying high again. Unfortunately, we had to wait all the way until Tomasi's run

To be fair to that annual, it ended on the idea that Dick needed to find who he was so he'd be happy with himself, so Andreyko didn't get everything wrong.

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