InsaneJournal

Tweak says, "KONICHIWA, BITCHES"

starwolf_oakley (starwolf_oakley) wrote in scans_daily,
@ 2009-08-05 17:37:00

Entry tags:

char: batgirl/oracle/barbara gordon, char: black canary/dinah lance, char: huntress/helena bertinelli, creator: gail simone, creator: joe bennett, title: birds of prey

BOP #68: A canary or a "mock"ing bird? or The Sexual History of Helena Bertinelli
The first page of Cry For Justice #2 has caused some controversy on this board and elsewhere. But it's not like that kind of "behavior" is unheard of in Huntress' history.

First, Babs and the girls talk about Savant, who kidnapped Black Canary and chained her to a ~~fridge~~ bed.

Uh-oh. Anyone know the exact issues?

This was revealed in OUTSIDERS #12, but not the circumstances. Nightwing must have told Oracle. Because that's not weird at all.

Ah, so Roy is "quick to let fly." No wonder Cheshire got pregnant!

Well, give she's now about Roy's age due to that Lazarus Pit dip, it's less "mother and son" these days.

How does that date go?

Sheesh, I thought they only kept the masks on in ULTIMATE or ALL-STAR stories. Supposedly Gail Simone wrote this so Helene could find realize she deserved better in the romance department. Is a threesome with Hal Jordan and Lady Blackhawk really better? Well, I doubt they'd keep their masks on.

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(Anonymous)
2009-08-06 04:09 am UTC (link)

Not following the title, not entirely up to speed on the character. But this is what I've managed to piece together as far as what constitutes Tarantula's rap as a Mary Sue:

First, not just the fact that a female character had sex with Nightwing. The fact that author Devin Grayson herself seems to show herself as having a constant fixation on the character. One sees an example of this in the novelization of "Rise of Sin Tzu" which she worked on, and the character of an FBI profiler who is so thoroughly enamored of 'wing that you'd have to have him a) openly drooling and b) openly declaring himself out of the closet to make it any more obvious.

There's also the idea of Tarantula herself somehow managing to one-up most of the Bat family, including somehow getting Batman's consent to operate within Gotham City (I recall her being there at some point, though I am aware Nightwing is a Bludhaven title. I forget where exactly, possible during the War Games arc) despite the fact that he's far less permissive with far more established, possibly more capable characters like Spoiler and Huntress. Anything that disqualifies them for his approval could equally be applied to Tarantula since she was literally gunning for Blockbuster's life.

Again, aware that I may be missing facts and viewpoints here, this is my view from outside the window looking in

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parsimonia
2009-08-06 02:38 pm UTC (link)

Not having read Rise of Sin Tzu I can only speculate, but part of Devin Grayson's characterization of Dick tends to be that a) it doesn't take much for him to sleep with someone and b) the dude is HOT and very few people don't notice that. I don't fully agree with that interpretation of the character, but that's her view and he probably is her favourite character. *shrug*

Tarantula, IIRC, followed Nightwing to Gotham City during War Games, and Batman accepted her help because Nightwing said he'd take responsibility for her. Bruce trusts Dick, and they were in a position at that point where the bat-team needed all the help they could get. By that point she *had* killed Blockbuster, but I don't think Bruce really found out the details until after War Games ended.

I just find it very disturbing and rather unfair that people call Tarantula Devin Grayson's Mary Sue, given what Tarantula did to Dick.

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(Anonymous)
2009-08-06 02:55 pm UTC (link)

Ah okay, viewpoints are a little clearer now.

I think mostly the view of Tarantula as a Mary Sue stems from the fact that Devin -does- find Nightwing hot and constantly works that in. Only instead of finding a way to work that out instead of established canon, she creates her own original, strong female character who gains immediate (or speedy perhaps, if not immediate) acceptance in the in-character communities and immediate placement in the ongoing storylines. So instead of doing something like say, rekindling the relationship with Babs, or expanding and making more significant the relationship with Huntress, Tarantula comes across less like fandom and more like self-gratifying wish fulfillment.

"Mary Sue" may have been originally intended to imply an impossibly-perfect, possibly canon-breaking character, but its secondary meaning seems to have become a character that its creator lives vicariously through, instead of merely personifying. Which seems to by why Tarantula comes across as such, for the reasons I've perceived here.

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parsimonia
2009-08-06 03:10 pm UTC (link)

she creates her own original, strong female character who gains immediate (or speedy perhaps, if not immediate) acceptance in the in-character communities and immediate placement in the ongoing storylines.

Well, there's another element in there, and that's that (as I understand it) when someone creates an original character, they get royalties when it's used again. But the point of Tarantula was to utterly fuck up Dick's life, (which tied into the everyone's-life-sucks-right-now setting of War Games), and I don't see how that would be flattering or ego-boosting if that were the writer's avatar.

It's definitely debatable whether or not it was a good idea to make Dick fall into that long downward spiral, but given that was the story it would not make sense for Dick to be patching things up with Babs or leaning on Helena for support at that point. The trajectory of Tarantula from the get-go seemed to be disaster, IMO, and I don't see how that would be wish-fulfilling.

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sistermagpie
2009-08-06 03:16 pm UTC (link)

Probably a better description would be something like "plot device." She was there to fuck up his life, so whenever there was a situation where you'd think either Dick or Batman or Babs or Huntress or whoever would neutralize her easily, instead she kept on, eventually literally riding Dick against his will while he's having a breakdown. I wouldn't consider it wish-fulfilling, but having the editorial power behind her.

I am interested in the way she's possibly playing out certain attitudes about sexual abuse and sex, though, because the aftermath of the rape will never not be weird. Having the victim re-tell the story to blame himself/pretend it didn't happen and never revisiting it again does seem really weird. Especially since part of it is people wanting it not to have happened, yet being unable to forget it happened. And another part are people who really do believe that Dick, as a man, could not be raped so his after-the-fact retcon is accurate to them.

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starwolf_oakley
2009-08-06 03:55 pm UTC (link)

I didn't intend us to start talking about Tarantula and Devin Grayson when I posted these pages, but...

Regarding Devin Grayson's "Born Again 2: Electric Boogaloo" story in NIGHTWING, *Blockbuster* was there to fuck up Dick's life. He had found out Nightwing's secret ID, had killed some of Dick's friends and was threatening to kill strangers that Dick passed in the street. Then Tarantula shoots Blockbuster and Nightwing lets her.

Tarantula wanting to "ride" Nigthwing on a rainy rooftop about a still-cooling corpse is pretty "out there." But it made me wonder more about what Tarantula was thinking instead of Devin Grayson.

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sistermagpie
2009-08-06 04:07 pm UTC (link)

But it made me wonder more about what Tarantula was thinking instead of Devin Grayson.

Oh, me too. I didn't mean to imply that I read that scene wondering what DG was getting out of it. I just meant that taking a step back when the whole story is over I think the scene raises huge questions in terms of what a lot of people were thinking. DG's might be interesting too--it was a very unusual choice to include the scene, which basically take Dick at his lowest point and then has him go even lower by having him get sexually assaulted when he was vulnerable.

It's true that Blockbuster was the one literally fucking up his life, but I feel like Tarantula was there to support him in doing it in a meta sense. I mean, Dick being targetted by Blockbuster would have been bad enough but it seems like having Tarantula there did make it worse. When it's all over his main problem seems to be Blockbuster's death. At the end Tarantula got rid of Blockbuster and inserted herself-literally-as the person violating him.

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parsimonia
2009-08-06 05:24 pm UTC (link)

Plot device, yes.

Having the victim re-tell the story to blame himself/pretend it didn't happen and never revisiting it again does seem really weird.

Does he ever specifically mention him and Tarantula on the roof after Blockbuster was shot, though? I know we did get Bruce chastising Dick for losing sight of the value of his life, but you would think if Bruce knew what Tarantula did to him, he'd react a bit differently. Like emphasize to Dick that he shouldn't be feeling guilty, and then go and personally see to it that Tarantula is arrested for anything and everything he can get proof on, you know?

Especially since part of it is people wanting it not to have happened, yet being unable to forget it happened. And another part are people who really do believe that Dick, as a man, could not be raped so his after-the-fact retcon is accurate to them.

Yes, this. Not dealing with it afterwards either leads to downplaying rape and sexual assault (with the added false implication that men can't be rape/sexual assault victims at the hands of women), or not acknowledging something that happened to the character.

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(Anonymous)
2009-08-06 05:46 pm UTC (link)

One last point to contribute here is that there -are- occasions where writers will use self-insertion characters in order -to- mess with a character's life. Either with the pseudo-romantic idea of becoming this character's healing influence and support, or by virtue of empowerment in that they have a character who -is- capable of so thoroughly derailing this strong central figure. The nonconsentual sex reinforces this idea, with her showing dominance.

Not to imply that this -is- what Devin does with Tarantula necessarily, just that it -is- a possibility and the fact that Tarantula has been a hassle to Dick does not immediately negate the possibility of this being a Mary Sue-as-fulfillment character.

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runespoor7
2009-08-06 06:35 pm UTC (link)

by virtue of empowerment in that they have a character who -is- capable of so thoroughly derailing this strong central figure

That's an interesting idea. But it implies that the author would be for their own character rather than for the hero, if I'm reading you right, or that it'd be more about their own character than about the other. In the case of Tarantula and Nightwing, I has the impression it was about Nightwing, and specifically his reacting to another new crime-fighter in 'his' (not really) city. Like others have said, Tarantula was only pretty much a footnote in the long lists of things gone wrong with Dick's life, most of which were orchestrated by Blockbuster. She only became so important after she killed Blockbuster and Dick felt twice as responsible for everything she did.

Honestly, Tarantula sucks at what she does. I'd think that if she were a wish-fulfillement character, she'd be a little more competent a crime-fighter at least once. Instead, she's a murderer, and the first murder she committed is the reason why Dick and she can't bring Blockbuster to justice the way Dick had convinced her to try. At one point she works for Blockbuster. She's got other skills - she's good at psychology and playing with people's emotions, she fights well and she raises fair points about crime - but she sucks at long or even mid-term planning.

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The term Mary Sue really needs to die.

batcookies
2009-08-07 12:59 am UTC (link)

As I said elsewhere, Tarantula's story ends with her acting like a selfish cowardly bitch, trying to kill Nightwing herself, ultimately defeated by a Nightwing who, after resolving to the right thing, absolutely demolishes her with laughable ease.

She didn't "one-up most of the Bat family", she was a rookie that managed to keep up with them and occasionally surprise them (particularly in public venues where they couldn't respond to the fullest of their abilities). When push came to shove, Nightwing was able to defeat her while in crutches.

And she proved that, while she may have gone after people that were even worse than herself, she was a rotten person too, quite willing to kill a good man that she claimed to have feelings for, in order to avoid jail.

This is a wish-fulfillment character?

Maybe for someone that needs psychiatric help. But I don't buy it.

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sistermagpie
2009-08-06 05:46 pm UTC (link)

Does he ever specifically mention him and Tarantula on the roof after Blockbuster was shot, though?

I seem to remember him saying to Tarantula that he had decided to have sex with the most inappropriate person ever due to his state of mind afterwards, but I don't remember anything else. Nobody else knows about it. Not that it can't be realistic for someone to do this--I've seen people do that in real life. But by saying that to Tarantula it's like he's apologizing to his own rapist and assuring her she did nothing wrong.

And it just always feels unfinished to me to leave it that way--maybe especially because so much in comics people are always having flashbacks or thinking about bad moments in their lives. If Dick's just repressed it it seems like it should come out again, even if it's in some subtle way. Otherwise it seems like a validation of the attitude that of course he couldn't have been raped/it was no big deal/nothing happened to the character.

Meanwhile it honestly seems like for the audience it's anything but forgotten. It's the first thing that comes up when Tarantula's name gets mentioned. Meanwhile there's the context of Dick being a character that really does get treated like a sex object the way female characters usually are, with a lot of the same conclusions about him.

And the thing is, it's not like Dick has to have a big breakdown. But he is somebody who's experienced sexual assault. Stephanie Brown can say that about herself (regarding an attempted assualt) but it seems like Dick can't, even though he's usually somebody who's pretty honest with himself.

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