Tweak

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Tweak says, "This is our final December."

starwolf_oakley (starwolf_oakley) wrote in scans_daily,
@ 2009-08-05 17:37:00

Entry tags:

char: batgirl/oracle/barbara gordon, char: black canary/dinah lance, char: huntress/helena bertinelli, creator: gail simone, creator: joe bennett, title: birds of prey

BOP #68: A canary or a "mock"ing bird? or The Sexual History of Helena Bertinelli
The first page of Cry For Justice #2 has caused some controversy on this board and elsewhere. But it's not like that kind of "behavior" is unheard of in Huntress' history.

First, Babs and the girls talk about Savant, who kidnapped Black Canary and chained her to a ~~fridge~~ bed.

Uh-oh. Anyone know the exact issues?

This was revealed in OUTSIDERS #12, but not the circumstances. Nightwing must have told Oracle. Because that's not weird at all.

Ah, so Roy is "quick to let fly." No wonder Cheshire got pregnant!

Well, give she's now about Roy's age due to that Lazarus Pit dip, it's less "mother and son" these days.

How does that date go?

Sheesh, I thought they only kept the masks on in ULTIMATE or ALL-STAR stories. Supposedly Gail Simone wrote this so Helene could find realize she deserved better in the romance department. Is a threesome with Hal Jordan and Lady Blackhawk really better? Well, I doubt they'd keep their masks on.

(Post a new comment)

	icon_uk 2009-08-05 10:12 pm UTC (link)
	Uh-oh. Anyone know the exact issues? The 1998 four issue Nightwing/Huntress miniseries (Reply to this) (Thread)

	aaron_bourque 2009-08-05 10:22 pm UTC (link)
	. . . was it actually called that? With the literal slash? (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

icon_uk, 2009-08-05 10:32 pm UTC

colonel_green, 2009-08-05 10:32 pm UTC

jaybee3, 2009-08-05 11:06 pm UTC

parsimonia, 2009-08-06 12:16 am UTC

jaybee3, 2009-08-06 12:41 am UTC

scottyquick, 2009-08-06 02:32 am UTC

batcookies, 2009-08-06 02:40 am UTC

starwolf_oakley, 2009-08-06 03:31 am UTC

runespoor7, 2009-08-06 07:08 pm UTC

(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2009-08-07 03:53 am UTC

runespoor7, 2009-08-07 02:39 pm UTC

(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2009-08-07 08:31 pm UTC

sistermagpie, 2009-08-06 01:26 am UTC

mysteryfan, 2009-08-06 02:55 am UTC

rorge, 2009-08-06 02:42 pm UTC

jaybee3, 2009-08-06 03:07 am UTC

sistermagpie, 2009-08-06 03:28 am UTC

aaron_bourque, 2009-08-06 02:53 pm UTC

parsimonia, 2009-08-06 03:00 pm UTC

runespoor7, 2009-08-06 07:14 pm UTC

(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2009-08-06 04:09 am UTC

parsimonia, 2009-08-06 02:38 pm UTC

(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2009-08-06 02:55 pm UTC

parsimonia, 2009-08-06 03:10 pm UTC

sistermagpie, 2009-08-06 03:16 pm UTC

starwolf_oakley, 2009-08-06 03:55 pm UTC

sistermagpie, 2009-08-06 04:07 pm UTC

parsimonia, 2009-08-06 05:24 pm UTC

(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2009-08-06 05:46 pm UTC

runespoor7, 2009-08-06 06:35 pm UTC

The term Mary Sue really needs to die. -

batcookies, 2009-08-07 12:59 am UTC

sistermagpie, 2009-08-06 05:46 pm UTC

aaron_bourque, 2009-08-06 03:03 pm UTC

parsimonia, 2009-08-06 03:31 pm UTC

aaron_bourque, 2009-08-06 05:50 pm UTC

angelophile, 2009-08-06 07:46 pm UTC

aaron_bourque, 2009-08-06 10:41 pm UTC

angelophile, 2009-08-07 12:10 am UTC

aaron_bourque, 2009-08-07 02:58 am UTC

angelophile, 2009-08-07 09:29 am UTC

aaron_bourque, 2009-08-07 04:20 pm UTC

starwolf_oakley, 2009-08-07 06:20 pm UTC

parsimonia, 2009-08-12 03:11 am UTC

batcookies, 2009-08-06 02:36 am UTC

freddylloyd, 2009-08-06 02:50 am UTC

aaron_bourque, 2009-08-06 03:04 pm UTC

freddylloyd, 2009-08-06 02:57 am UTC

runespoor7, 2009-08-06 05:56 am UTC

aaron_bourque, 2009-08-06 03:05 pm UTC

runespoor7, 2009-08-06 06:40 pm UTC

aaron_bourque, 2009-08-06 10:39 pm UTC

runespoor7, 2009-08-06 10:49 pm UTC

scottyquick, 2009-08-06 09:05 pm UTC

	mullon 2009-08-05 10:33 pm UTC (link)
	At this point it would just be easier to assume that everyone has had sex with everyone and move on with our lives. (Reply to this)

(Anonymous)
2009-08-05 10:51 pm UTC (link)

Yes, a three some with Hal Jordan and lady Blackhawk is beneath both of them. For one very importan reason. As Gail mentioned earlier, Lady Blackhawk and Huntress are both friends, having a threesome with one of your friends changes the dynamic of said friendship.

another reason I see is that again, that is throwing Huntress back to her use as nothing but a glorified blow up doll. Yes Gail wrote this story, but if you are going to post this, post the all the pages that are in context with this story so that people know that this moment changes Huntress. It is in this moment that Huntress sees that she hit the bottom.

She doesn't even really know the guy,the guy is basically a pig at this point, calling her honey and stuff like that. So she is not going to take her mask off. She slept with him because she was finally connecting with other people on a real level, the first people she has know that actually had the potential of being friends with her, and she messed up. She accidently offended Dinah, and Dinah intentionally offended her.

Would Lady Blackhawk have slept with Hal while drunk? maybe, they are both pilots, and heroes. they might struck up a conversation and then gone from there.

Helena and Hal? no. Helena, Hal AND Lady Blackhawk, hell no.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	drsevarius 2009-08-05 11:17 pm UTC (link)
	Gail commented on the threeway? (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

parsimonia, 2009-08-05 11:34 pm UTC

mysteryfan, 2009-08-06 02:58 am UTC

randyripoff
2009-08-06 01:22 am UTC (link)

She doesn't even really know the guy,the guy is basically a pig at this point, calling her honey and stuff like that.

Eh, I dunno. Josh, for all his sliminess seemed to be a decent guy who really liked Helena and at the very least stuck around after she slept with him (in fact, I was kinda disappointed that Gail didn't do more with him).

Of course, now she's with Catman, and I really can't say that's an upgrade.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

ashtoreth, 2009-08-06 05:09 am UTC

unknownscribler, 2009-08-06 05:35 am UTC

parsimonia, 2009-08-06 02:41 pm UTC

scottyquick, 2009-08-09 05:02 am UTC

parsimonia
2009-08-05 11:03 pm UTC (link)

The point is that Huntress is well past being in a state where she'd sleep with someone unless she really wanted it. She wouldn't do it just to feed Hal Jordon's ego.

Besides, as Gail Simone emphasized in that thread on CBR, Zinda and Helena are friends. And saying "well, Helena's had sex with a bunch of people" is justification for her participating in a threesome along with Zinda is kind of problematic.

By that logic, both Hal and Ollie should be having threesomes together with women regularly in canon. But we won't see that throw-away line, because that would mean implying that two of DC's big-name white straight male heroes are not as straight as previously thought.

I may be going out on a limb here, but I do get the feeling that TPTB at DC are a lot more comfortable with female heroes who are gay than male heroes who are gay.

(And let's face it, there's so much more fuel for Hal/Ollie at this point than there is for Zinda/Helena.)

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	dr_hermes 2009-08-05 11:14 pm UTC (link)
	Culture in general is a lot more comfortable with females who are gay than males. Has that been changing lately in movies or TV or anything? (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

parsimonia, 2009-08-05 11:25 pm UTC

dr_hermes, 2009-08-05 11:47 pm UTC

parsimonia, 2009-08-05 11:59 pm UTC

gargoylekitty, 2009-08-06 12:20 am UTC

dr_hermes, 2009-08-06 12:26 am UTC

gargoylekitty, 2009-08-05 11:42 pm UTC

dr_hermes, 2009-08-05 11:50 pm UTC

thebigapricot
2009-08-05 11:43 pm UTC (link)

Yes, exactly. If you look at subtext Hal and Ollie should be so married at this point. But you know, DC won't go there.

And while OP I see lots of examples of Helena having sex with different men, so what? Would that then mean that scans of Dick Grayson in bed with Kory and then Babs and then Helena and a few women whose names I can't remember would mean that was logical that he would next be in a threesome with, say Roy and Grace, as well? (And I am talking canon here not Fan fic, obviously ;))

(Reply to this) (Parent)

runespoor7
2009-08-06 06:07 am UTC (link)

The point is that Huntress is well past being in a state where she'd sleep with someone unless she really wanted it.

Now I've had time to think about it, I think that's the point of Josh re-appearing a while after that. The point was to show that faced with very similar behaviour, Helena didn't react the same way.

I remember someone saying somewhere that Ollie is so straight he goes all the way through the other side. I see what they meant.

I do get the feeling that TPTB at DC are a lot more comfortable with female heroes who are gay than male heroes who are gay.

Well, we've had Dixon giving us plenty of Babs/Dinah subtext, and Grace/Anissa, and Renee coming out, and Batwoman being a lesbian, and occasional nods to lesbian relationships among the Amazons.

Meanwhile, as male gay characters are concerned, I remember... wait for it... wait for iiiit... Kyle's assistant, right?

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

darkknightjrk, 2009-08-06 07:39 am UTC

kingrockwell, 2009-08-06 02:42 pm UTC

suzene, 2009-08-06 03:44 pm UTC

runespoor7, 2009-08-06 06:42 pm UTC

parsimonia, 2009-08-06 02:23 pm UTC

	dr_hermes 2009-08-05 11:12 pm UTC (link)
	Like sands through the hourglass.. these are THE DAYS OF OUR LIVES... [music] (Reply to this)

	cowtasticism 2009-08-05 11:14 pm UTC (link)
	I can't figure out what's happening to the Huntress' shirt in the last panel. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	nevermore999 2009-08-05 11:15 pm UTC (link)
	It's a bedsheet. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

cowtasticism, 2009-08-05 11:16 pm UTC

nevermore999, 2009-08-05 11:19 pm UTC

his_spiffyness, 2009-08-05 11:54 pm UTC

merseybeatler, 2009-08-06 12:45 am UTC

jelly_ace, 2009-08-06 01:11 pm UTC

parsimonia, 2009-08-05 11:36 pm UTC

dr_hermes, 2009-08-05 11:41 pm UTC

	Huntress turned down Catman. mooppoom 2009-08-05 11:22 pm UTC (link)
	Simone Catman. Hal Jordan? Not a chance, my friends. Not a chance. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	Re: Huntress turned down Catman. jaybee3 2009-08-05 11:57 pm UTC (link)
	Heh. I thought the same thing. I'm still waiting for Huntress' next appearance in Secret Six. If she engaged in sex with Thomas there, THAT I could believe. The guy's got her number on his auto-dial already. But engaging in a drunken 3-way with one of her best female friends and some recently-returned from the dead guy she barely knows? Nah. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

Re: Huntress turned down Catman. -

mooppoom, 2009-08-06 12:05 am UTC

Re: Huntress turned down Catman. -

colonel_green, 2009-08-06 12:02 am UTC

Re: Huntress turned down Catman. -

jaybee3, 2009-08-06 12:09 am UTC

mysteryfan
2009-08-06 03:16 am UTC (link)

Well, I don't see how this affects the other. They're both about sex, theoretically, I guess, but also completely unrelated.

That Cry for Justice page is Ollie congratulating Hal on scoring.

It makes Ollie really ickier than ever, and that's, well...

Then there's the two close friends and a third person suddenly getting it on issue, as has been pointed out. Hal and Ollie, ~~only in fanfic~~ never.

BoPs? Two Birds of Prey, a now cancelled book which had, when there aren't many women friendships at all, women's friendships? Yep. AND they get it on so that Ollie can congratulate Hal on his prowess. (Which feels a little slashy on Ollie's part, in the m/m way, but maybe that's just me.)

(Reply to this) (Thread)

ashtoreth, 2009-08-06 06:20 am UTC

kusonaga, 2009-08-06 07:37 am UTC

darkknightjrk, 2009-08-06 07:41 am UTC

scottyquick, 2009-08-06 06:55 pm UTC

runespoor7, 2009-08-06 08:07 pm UTC

mysteryfan, 2009-08-07 02:01 pm UTC

mysteryfan, 2009-08-07 01:23 pm UTC

	glitterandlube 2009-08-06 03:39 am UTC (link)
	Eschewing this entire discussion, Babs/Dinah is even more canon than I thought. Damn. (Reply to this) (Thread)

bariman1987, 2009-08-06 08:10 am UTC

gailsimone
2009-08-06 07:40 am UTC (link)

Yeah.

I'm gonna get hell for this because I always do, but it fucking IRRITATED me that a character as cool and powerful as the Huntress, someone who was her own character and her own personality, was being used to show the studliness of characters unfit to be in her company.

I got tired of it. It was the same thing as Black Canary. To stop the constant stories of her as a useless hostage, I had to tell what I thought was the FINAL hostage story, to show that she could have three broken limbs, be in leg casts, handcuffed to a bed in a tower and STILL be kickass and dangerous and in control.

It was the same thing with Huntress. I felt to stop the continued devaluing of her character through her so-called 'promiscuity (which was all horseshit anyway),' that I had to have her make one last bad choice, and then realize that she deserved better. Sex on her terms, with people she values in some way, fine. Sex to be a notch on some dipshit sidekick's bedpost, no way.

I felt it was an important turning point in the character. But like the hostage thing with Canary, it's an uphill struggle to fight the cliches, and in both cases, the turning point stories were ignored soon after the characters left bop.

It's kinda sad.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

jaybee3, 2009-08-06 12:41 pm UTC

kagome654, 2009-08-06 01:32 pm UTC

sistermagpie, 2009-08-06 02:54 pm UTC

parsimonia, 2009-08-06 02:55 pm UTC

	darkknightjrk 2009-08-06 07:43 am UTC (link)
	Huntress having sex with other heroes doesn't really "bother" me--it's just her lack of taste in doing so with Hal Jordan. (Reply to this) (Thread)

zordboy, 2009-08-06 12:50 pm UTC

	kingrockwell 2009-08-06 02:49 pm UTC (link)
	I'll see your #68 and raise you one #98 (because thirty issues will make a world of difference!) (with nods to uadlika) (Reply to this)

runespoor7
2009-08-07 08:44 pm UTC (link)

Oh, I know, and to some extent I agree. To me, it's one of these author idiosyncrasies; it makes me roll my eyes a little, but all in all it doesn't stop me from enjoying the story.

But no writer before (or since, really) did (or has done) so to such a great extent

I think it was Fabian Nicieza that had a gorilla ask "could that butt be any more perfect?" about Dick's ass, though (also, I could be wrong). And Bruce Jones had Dick's then-lover refer to his bruises as "very hot". And then had Dick become a model. (I wish I was making the last two up so, so much.) So either Dick's another level of fetishization altogether, or we're more aware of Devin Grayson doing it because we all know she's a Nightwing fangirl. I know that's how/why I'm aware of it, at least.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

sistermagpie, 2009-08-07 09:32 pm UTC

runespoor7, 2009-08-07 09:53 pm UTC

sistermagpie, 2009-08-07 10:15 pm UTC

	ex_agata254 2010-02-18 04:39 pm UTC (link)
	Oh! thanks a lot for posting this. I might say that Helena Bertinelli is my favorite Gotham Girl! I can't even express the cocktail of feelings I got when I had come across a mini 3D copy of my favorite character in a shop! Here it is: sex toy is the most fun you can have without laughing. (Reply to this)

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