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This should be good. ;) First a bit of canon . . . US Ed. p.740-1
"Snape's Patronus was a doe," said Harry, "the same as my mother's, because he loved her for nearly all of his life, from the time when they were children. You should have realized," he said as he saw Voldemort's nostrils flare, "he asked you to spare her life, didn't he?"
"He desired her, that was all," sneered Voldemort, "but when she had gone, he agreed that there were other women, and of purer blood, worthier of him-"
"Of course, he told you that," said Harry, "but he was Dumbledore's spy from the moment you threatened her, . . . "
I do think Voldemort has it wrong-even if Snape loved Lily obsessively, I believe he loved her as best as he was able. But Harry may have over simplified things and probably the truth lies between.
So who were these other women? Girlfriends? One night stands? Did they even exist? I just noticed for the first time that Voldemort said "he agreed that there were other women." That leaves quite a bit of wiggle room.
I would ask that we stick to canon-yes, yes, we all know he was shagging Lupin or waiting for Hermione to come of age :P but for the purposes of this discussion, please leave your favorite ship at the door.
"Snape's Patronus was a doe," said Harry, "the same as my mother's, because he loved her for nearly all of his life, from the time when they were children. You should have realized," he said as he saw Voldemort's nostrils flare, "he asked you to spare her life, didn't he?"
"He desired her, that was all," sneered Voldemort, "but when she had gone, he agreed that there were other women, and of purer blood, worthier of him-"
"Of course, he told you that," said Harry, "but he was Dumbledore's spy from the moment you threatened her, . . . "
I do think Voldemort has it wrong-even if Snape loved Lily obsessively, I believe he loved her as best as he was able. But Harry may have over simplified things and probably the truth lies between.
So who were these other women? Girlfriends? One night stands? Did they even exist? I just noticed for the first time that Voldemort said "he agreed that there were other women." That leaves quite a bit of wiggle room.
I would ask that we stick to canon-yes, yes, we all know he was shagging Lupin or waiting for Hermione to come of age :P but for the purposes of this discussion, please leave your favorite ship at the door.
BTW, was it ever actually stated in the book that Lily's Patronus was a doe (apart from Harry's above statement), or did JKR just assume that we would accept that it's so because James' Animagus form was a stag?
*leaves ship at door*
women, hmmm. considers known deatheater and purebred females. Well, Bellatrix, but Voldy may consider her his own. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a fling or attraction with Narcissa, but she was loyal to her family when humanly possible.
I am not too familiar with other DE women of his generation, and look forward to the Underground's ideas!
Narcissa and Snape!!!
Needless to say Snape would be sexually attracted to Narcissa. For a young man, so desperate to fit in to the society of pure-blood wizards he had associated himself with since his induction into Slytherin, Narcissa is the epitome of what he wants or what he thinks he wants ('He desired her, that was all,' sneered Voldemort, 'but when she had gone, he agreed that there were other women, and of purer blood, worthier of him -'): Beautiful, Talented and of the prestigious pure-blood Black family.
Snape thinks, or perhaps is persuaded to believe by Lord Voldemort or his supporters, that by securing Narcissa he can take his place as a dominant wizard (and perhaps also forget about the love he felt for Lily).
I believe that they started some kind of relationship, and held some sort of affection for each other which would transgress time, an example of this being Snape’s compassion for Narcissa during her visit to Spinner’s End after Draco’s induction into the Death Eater circle.
I believe that Narcissa and Snape’s relationship ended primarily because of the undying (albeit unrequited) love he held for Lily Evans.
{"Snape's Patronus was a doe," said Harry, "the same as my mother's, because he loved her for nearly all of his life, from the time when they were children. You should have realized," he said as he saw Voldemort's nostrils flare, "he asked you to spare her life, didn't he?" }
Narcissa would know, as would any other woman in the same circumstance, that Snape’s true affection did not lie with her.
The two parted ways amicably (again indicated by evidence seen in scenes of their adult relationships) only for Narcissa to marry Lucius Malfoy another prominent, although much less brilliant, wizard in her circle.
But it always baffles me when people think it's only logical that he died a virgin, because for me that's not very realistic at all. Aside from the fact that there was no reason why he couldn't have gotten laid between 76 and 81, why would he spend almost twenty years with blue balls, because of Lily's dead or whatever the reason. Love doesn't have to have anything to do with sex, and even if he was so horribly disgusting that no one would sleep with him (which would have to be a lot, these people probably haven't seen the poor god-forsaken ugly sods that I have, and a lot of them were married and all that), he could very well pay for a prostitute (according to fanfiction, on Knockturn Alley) and get it off his system. It does make me a little confused and amused, when people make fun of fiction in which he has sex by saying that it's absurd because in canon he could only be a virgin. O.O He might even have gone celibate out of weariness of relationships and the sort after 81, but during his DE days he was part of a prestiged(?) group (to some parts of society). Anyway. I stranded away from the topic. I do think he had one-night stands and things of the sort after that. Maybe not with DE ladies and associates. Maybe even muggles, so as to avoid any kind of complication with people he knew. There don't seem to exist a lot of female DEs, anyway, though I'm sure if there aren't others there are at least sisters, cousins, etc that are in on the whole thing.. Eh.. I'll stop writing now. Sorry for the bad english, btw.
I think what put a cramp in his style more was the fact that he would have been a little busy. What with the teaching and the spying, and the DE-ing, etc.
That and living under the extreme pressure of all of the above is going to kill the urge to . . . very much. More so than pining after a love almost 20 years gone.
My two sickles. . .
As far as canon, through Harry's point-of-view we're lead to believe that none of the teachers at Hogwarts had personal lives at all. None of them are mentioned as having ever been married, let alone ever leaving the castle, so it's hard to say. More realistically, I'm sure the teachers went out to bars, got sloshed, had one night stands, had long term relationships, and everything else that real people do.
Again, canon would suggest that Snape had an undying love for Lily to an obsessive amount and that there was never anyone else for him. While I do believe he loved her, I think she was more of an ideal for him and an icon of his mistakes and what he had to atone for. The memory of her is painful because it's a reminder of his fall into the bad guys, and arguably some of the very worst days of his life.
So my personal opinion is that, yes, there were probably other women. I also agree that they were probably fairly shallow relationships or one night stands. However, I don't think it's far-fetched that he could have died a virgin either -- I've known plenty of people (male and female) that are virgins well into their 30s, and they're friendly, attractive and well-adjusted people. Canon implies that Snape is none of these.
Of course, given that the books are entirely from Harry's point of view, we may be mislead there as well. Sometimes I wonder how ugly Snape really was/is being as we only have his description from Harry. Okay now I'm just rambling :)
"The Harry filter" is a well-worn topic of discussion in Snape fandom. ;) We do have a few glimpses that are more neutral, such as in "Spinner's End", which is not through anyone's eyes in particular (perhaps Bellatrix or Narcissa's, but it seems more omniscient to me; maybe even Snape's own?). I don't have the book in front of me but, for example, I think it's the only time the adjective "greasy" is left off his hair, and it's described simply as "black curtains".
I do get the impression he is a plain man (certainly not "handsome" like Sirius), but to Harry he becomes uglier because Harry hates him (for most of the books). It's the opposite phenomenon to how someone becomes more attractive, or at least you kind of stop seeing their physical flaws, if you like them.
I think the primary obstacle would be having time for relationships aside from all Snape's other responsibilities. But I'm not so willing to believe he *never* had any other relationships simply because of his pining for Lily, i.e. "she was the only one for me, ever" or that type of thing; however that seems to be what Harry implies in that quoted passage.
JKR must hate writing romance because she's so bad at it, & vice versa.
-punkybunky
I'm more concerned with the fact that evidently, Voldemort and Snape discussed this at some point during the second war! There was no chance to talk about his love life after Lily had "gone", as Voldemort vanished twenty seconds later. (Unless we want to nit-pick and assume Voldemort's referring to Lily's going into hiding...)
I think it's perfectly plausible that he had other relationships and other friendships than just that with Lily; after all, he was Lily's best friend for years, so it's not like he was a complete social anomaly. A well-adjusted, happy girl like Lily wouldn't have stuck by him for so long if he wasn't - at least deep down - at least sort of awesome.
- A.
*ducks from flying objects*
Voldemort knew for a fact that Snape was so in love (or infatuated lust or whatever) with Lily to have pleaded to him for her life. One would imagine that this was a rare occurrence, even among his closest subordinates -- for him to presumptuously ask his Master to spare the life of a mudblood who has thrice defied the Dark Lord and is clearly an enemy. If Voldemort had any sense, he would monitor Snape's private life, at least to some extent, before trusting him again post-resurrection. A healthy 36-year-old heterosexual man showing zero interest in other women sexually, after all these years following the death of his object of desire, would be a good sign that the man might not have gotten over Lily and thus still harbors dangerous resentments for her death.
Although the important factor here is Voldemort's lovelessness. Love does seem to be his one area of complete and utter ignorance. He overlooks quite a lot of how human psyche acts when it comes to caring emotions towards others. But then again he also does have a psychotically keen instinct for how to exploit people's loving emotions (baiting Harry with Sirius, and the Death Eaters' favorite method of coercion having been the capture and torture of family members).
So I don't know. Would Snape have thought he has to take a lover for appearance's sake? Was Pettigrew stationed at his house to report back on Snape's sex life or lack thereof, including whose name he whispers when he wanks? (Eww.)
In either case I don't think he canonically looks to have died a virgin, not because he can't stay celibate for 17 years after Lily's death (I think it is very likely -- even realistically likely -- that he has, because he was so devastated and hung up on his martyr mentality after that; he also became so antisocial that I imagine the teacher-era Snape would have regarded sex as too much interpersonal work to be worth the hassle) but because he once stepped back from his Lily love. Remember he couldn't choose Lily over his Slytherin friends when she told him it was them or her. So that was his choice, no matter how much he might have regretted it after the years to come. Then later years found him eagerly doing Voldemort's bidding; in other words, when he left school and joined the DEs, he was full of hope, if headed in the wrong direction, and full of vitality and ambition, looking forward to a life of fulfillment. Of course he would have had sex with people. He could have even fallen in love genuinely and taken a girlfriend or boyfriend.
Not that there would be anything wrong in interpreting Snape as having died a virgin... Some people do, you know, and not just ugly people, but mostly people who don't have that much interest in human-to-human sex (don't necessarily have to be completely asexual) and those who never like people around them enough to want to have sex with them. Or those whose social skills are so inadequate that they have a hard time getting to first base. Even men can be like that -- in fact, because of the inequality between the gendered norms (there's always men out there willing to sleep with any woman, whereas the same doesn't apply to your average women) it might even be likelier for men to be like that than women. So if Snape was like that and for financial or psychological reasons didn't decide to hire a sex worker, he may well have died a virgin and that's nothing to write home about. He doesn't have to be a virgin when he dies but then he doesn't have to not either, is what I'm trying to say here.
-raisin_gal
Sorry, I couldn't resist that! Okay, on to the real discussion...just because he never got over Lily doesn't mean that he never had sex with anyone else, but I think it would be difficult for him to have had a serious relationship. Not just because of his Lily-obsession, but because his being a double agent puts both himself and his lover at risk. There's the obvious risk that if the Death Eaters find out about her, then she could be used as a hostage against him. There's also the risk that if he tells her about his spying, then she might accidentally let some piece of information slip to someone who shouldn't hear it--or that she could be forced to give up that information through torture. If he really cared about someone, I think that he wouldn't want to get involved with her, for her own protection. And I suspect he'd be wanting to protect her from Dumbledore's machinations as well as from Voldemort. Dumbledore doesn't resort to torture and murder, but he's already proven once that he was willing to use Snape's feelings about Lily to make him spy for the Order and protect Harry.
Even if Snape doesn't tell her anything about his spying, there's still the chance that she might overhear something that she's not supposed to, or that he might accidentally let something slip to her. Or on a more mundane note, their relationship might fall apart because ideally, a romantic relationship should be based on trust, and his lover might get fed up with him always keeping secrets and hiding a major part of his life from her.
Perhaps he might go to a prostitute to take care of his physical needs without any emotional complications, or perhaps he indulged in one night stands from time to time--perhaps with fellow Order members. Danger, and the sense that they could be killed at any time, could certainly fuel sexual desire, and perhaps after completing a dangerous mission together, he and one of the female Order members might have had a one night stand or a brief fling. Probably not Tonks, since she's clearly fixated on Lupin, but there are a couple of other women, Emmeline Vance and Hestia Jones, whom we know little about other than their names.
Since this post is titled "Snape's 'Other Women,'" I'm only listing female characters as options, but just because he was attracted to Lily doesn't necessarily mean that he couldn't be involved with men as well. Perhaps Harry misinterpreted platonic love for romantic love, or Snape could be bisexual. In fact, since he seems to idealize Lily so much that another woman would have trouble competing with her memory for his affections, perhaps he might find it easier to get involved with a man. I don't want to veer off-topic, so I won't go into it any further, but perhaps we could consider having a "Snape's men" question in the future? ;-)
Given Voldy's general disdain for love in any form and inability to comprehend it as a motivation, it's entirely plausible that he wouldn't even think to raise the subject subsequently. So while it's intriguing to imagine who else Snape might have been involved with, that 'other women' line doesn't give much information either way.
As a bloke, I've observed with amusement the suggestions that obviously Snape wouldn't have remained celibate because duh, he's a man! Um, no. Many men wouldn't, some men would. I like Snape, but he's emotionally closed, bitter, sarcastic, has a nasty streak, and is physically fairly unappealing -- not promising material as a lover even if he was interested. And in addition seems exactly the type who would love one woman obsessively regardless of circumstance. It may not be a common type, but it's not so rare as to be freakish either.
Snape's relationships
Seems to me that Severus was wary--with excellent cause--of even being friends with anyone, at least from the time he became a double agent, possibly from shortly after he joined the Death Eaters.
Think about it. Once he was a double agent, anyone he's known to have cared for at all is at terrible risk if he were exposed. We know that after Voldie's first disappearance, Dumbledore and Snape both expected him back (Snape wouldn't have agreed to protect Harry if he didn't agree Harry was in danger). And we know that neither Dumbledore or Snape was fully confident that Snape could fool Voldie on his return. (GOF, Snape's pallor, Dumbledore's "several minutes" of silence--in the middle of restarting a war.)
But even if Snape managed to keep his cover--Voldie uses relationships to punish Death Eaters who screw up, vide using Draco to punish Lucius. As a quadruple agent, part of Snape's art is to turn in incomplete information or not quite competent performances where he can get away with it without blowing his cover. (Failing to bring Harry along to visit Voldie when Harry practically flings himself into Snape's arms after Dumbledore's death, anyone?) It's one thing to risk torture for himself, another to bring it on someone he cares for. Anyone who Snape seems to care for would be horribly at risk.
Snape may even have been smart enough to figure out before he turned that anyone any Death Eater loves is automatically at risk, just like the loved ones of members of the Order. (Only worse, because Death Eaters' loved ones are automatically on tap for Voldie--members of the Order, Voldie at least has to track down.)
In fact, the only one we can be sure, in canon, of Snape showing love for after Lily, is Dumbledore--who is both "the only one Voldemort has ever feared" and Voldie's target already in his own right. (In fact, I think Snape was intended from the first as Dumbledore's assassin, though Voldie may not have told him so: it makes no sense to order someone to apply for a cursed short term position if you want a longterm "spy upon Albus Dumbledore".)
"Light Between the Cracks" aside, therefore, I don't think Severus would risk either love or deep friendship.
Sex, however... I agree with the poster who pointed out that he spent a year or more as an optimistic, rising Death Eater with a bright--er, I mean, dark--future ahead of him. And intelligence and competence are always attractive in men, even in Halfbloods with hooked noses, yes?
I think his horror when he defects to Dumbledore shows he hadn't been serious about anyone but Lily, however. (He wouldn't have said "anything" if he had responsibilities to a lover, I hope.)
His guilt and depression may have dampened his sex drive after Lily's death, but surely not have extinguished it. And just from the point of view of proving to the Dark Lord's Legilimency that he was over Lily..... (Actually I am sure that he always concealed the depths of his true feelings for Lily from Voldie, made him believe he wanted her out of revenge or some such; it would have cost Voldie nothing to have stunned Lily, if he'd really known what a handle she'd be on Snape. Voldie likes having handles on his followers.)
But Snape would have made damned sure that there was no one, ever, the Dark Lord could construe as a good hostage. His line with Voldie was probably that he didn't have a heart and didn't care to be ruled by his body's desires, though he indulged them occasionally....
Which is what I imagine Voldie's own view to have been, so it would have seemed credible--given Severus's iron Occlumency.
to the point : I have a feeling that Snape didn't have any romantic\ sexsual relationships with nobody, not because his duty or his love for Lily, but because Rowling built him as a character who rather not... in his own words, won't wear his heart on his sleeve : wherever we see Snape showing any kind of emotion which is not anger ( when meeting D at the prince tale and betraying the dark lord or mourning Lily) he ends manipulated into huge and dangerous decisions - decisions we see his schoolmates won't take that easy.
We see him meeting Dumbldore terrified with the thought that Lily would die, and he ends up betraying his friends and schoolmates ( we never know if any of them would be killed because this betrayel - and Rowling would never tel us) - it's not Snape who's deciding to switch side and go with D : it's D who haggles on her life as if her life are tomato in the marker, and in return to protect on her life, Snape is willing to give everything...
We see him again, after Lily died, and this time D convince him to take care of Harry - to take care his worst enemy's child, apart from the fact that it's a huge decision to make ( we see Lupin's reaction in the beginning of the same book when he realizes that "Tonks is going to have a baby" - how much she said with seven simple words!), D prevent his mouning from being complete.
how can a man who was betrayed so bitterly by someone who's suppose to be the good and protecting side go and... risk himself by being expose again? on both love or sexual realtionship, he must risk this kind of thing, and I don't think he would ever try this again.
waitaminute. Snape's a half-blood, isn't he? and according to the DE ideology, a half-blood wasn't such a great thing to be. note how pissed Bellatrix got when Harry called Voldemort that, which makes it pretty clear that Voldemort did not advertise the fact (or Bellatrix was willfully blind/simply too nuts to see). therefore he might want to pretend that all his lieutenants were pure as well, and so he'd argue that "worthiness" was actually an issue when it came to Snape and "desire". IOW, he was BS-ing Harry and his audience (and presumably his DE's as well- somehow i doubt that all Snape's classmates thought he was a pureblood).
anyway, i can't see Snape getting it on with anyone, female or male, other than to keep up appearances. nor do i believe that his love for Lily was sexual. he became fixated on her before the age of 10, for heaven's sake- that's a little early for a boy to be feeling the stirrings of, well, pretty much anything.
and realistically- remember, this is CANON Snape- would all that many pureblood women have reciprocated his affection? we are NOT talking about the fabled Sex God of Slytherin here.
I'll just throw out some disjointed thoughts on the topic here. I'm sure they have been mentioned above already.
Riddle wasn't a fool. If Snape admits that there are other women, worthier women, then there were other women, worthier women.
Why?
1. Because, when Severus first met Riddle after he came back, he had to convince Riddle that he was still on his side, that he was in fact spying for him, and not for Dumbledore. How foolish then to lie about such a trite thing (for Riddle) as relationships with other women. If Sev says others are worthy, and Riddle asks other DE: was Snape ever seen with a woman? - the answer shouldn't be 'no'. That'd be suspicious. Yet another lie. Snape can't be trusted, let's kill him.
2. If Snape told Dumbledore in detail what Riddle was asking him, which he most likely did, then Dumbledore would have known that Snape needed some sort of relationship as a cover. He'd have arranged something, the meddling bastard. He didn't, as far as we know, so he probably didn't need to.
Ergo, Snape had some sort of affair. Whether that was pretended, merely friendly, simply casual or such, I don't know. I don't think it'd been the ladies who, according to fandom, reside in Knockturn Alley, since Voldie would hardly have found them worthier than Lily.
First, I agree with the interpretation several others raised, that in saying there were "other women," Severus was simply saying that yes, of course other women exist who are purer and worthier than the woman he "desired" in his youth. He wasn't necessarily claiming, "Dude, I've had sooo many other, better women!" He was just trying to deflect any hint of suspicion on Voldemort's part that he carried any emotional attachment to Lily or resentment about Lily's death.
Second, I see no reason to believe that he died a virgin. I don't think even the most avid fan of Severus would say he was Secretly Really Handsome, but was he really as ugly and horrible as he appeared through the eyes of Harry? Taken objectively, I've seen plenty of people in this world with attributes like long stringy hair and big noses and discolored crooked teeth--hell, at 44 years old my teeth are looking a bit yellowed and crooked; I hope that doesn't doom me to celibacy for the rest of my life!--and they still find people who find them attractive. Not everyone goes for Hollywood beauty standards.
As for his personality, well, hell, even taking the snarly teacher persona at face value, surely there are women out there who would be compatible matches for his personality and temperament. Why should we assume that all the women in England and Scotland are sweet little lovey-dovey dainty flowers that would wilt at the first hint of snark? I'm sure a woman with a bit of a spine would get on just fine with Severus. Furthermore, as I pointed out in my essay on Severus the Teacher, we really see only a limited side of his whole personality and life. The one good glimpse we get away from the Harry filter ("Spinner's End" in HBP) shows us someone capable of being calm and civil, so I imagine that Severus would be capable of showing a more appealing side in personal relationships and friendships than he showed to the students.
Finally, as far as how he would have managed relationships in spite of being a spy, and how his grief over Lily might be reconciled with opening his heart to love others, the best example I can give is my story Light Between the Cracks, in which I create one possible scenario in which Severus would meet someone, fall in love, and conduct a personal relationship over the years. The details are, of course, only one way it might have happened; perhaps he would have had several attempted relationships over the years that never "clicked" to become permanent. But the underlying reasoning, and the step-by-step process he undergoes, I would consider very much compliant with the canon character. Since he was very much led by his heart and emotions rather than by his head and reason, I think it not only possible but probable that like the moth to the flame (which might well destroy him) he would inexorably be attracted towards any source offering acceptance and genuine friendship and appreciation.
None of the male staff in HP-Canon is really attractive.Harry isn't,Ron surely isn't,neither is Neville.Dumbledore:too old,Hagrid: to big,Flitwick: too tiny,Mad-eye Moody: too bizarr...and so on.The few handsome ones don't last long.Cedric Diggory:dead, Sirus Black:dead,and anyway his handsomeness was already destroyed in Azkaban, Bill Weasley:good-looks ruined by a werewolf, Gilderoy Lockhart: a complete idiot and ending up insane.
So Snape can be regarded simply as average and normal as everyone in canon as to male attractiveness.Greasy hair?Where's the problem?Pale skin?The same.Uneven and yellowish teeth?About 85% of people are provided with those teeth.It's hardly more we do know about his appearance - so why shoudn't there be women who fancy him?(At least so many female readers do)
Er, for me, Harry is a 'simple' boy who is not particularly bright or distinctive of nuances and is self-centered who thinks he is *right* even if facts are being thrown to his face. I also happen to see the 'context' of the conversation with Lord Voldermort-- he meant to piss off, enrage and humiliate Voldemort that his spy has fooled him for many years. Why else bring up this "Snape loved my mother and you were too foolish to see it" speech in front of all those spectators while they were about to duel? Of course, they were discussing Dumbles' death and how he was a 'better' man or whatever than LV but Harry need not bring that up. At least, that's how I see it.
I like to think Severus had those other women, yes, either out of necessity to keep up his act with LV or well....he is human, after all. I also think he deserved to have those women, because Lily is simply not worth it, IMHO ( I would not protest this devotion to her if she turned out to be a bit better than how JKR showed her in TPT and SWM, plus the 'flashback' on her death). No one like he loved Lily, of course, I can accept him pining for her all those years (how else could the Patronus and his 'always' answer, plus his crying bout over that letter to Sirius can be explained?) but... it's very plausible that he had other women, we are talking about almost 20 years here... not to mention his feelings as shown in their 5th year. Just because Severus isn't 'nice' and 'good looking' doesn't mean he had no kind of romantic/sexual relationship or experience after Lily, ever. Lots of people who have emotional problems, are plain, etc. do have relationships or experiences of varying degrees.
I *fully, totally*agree that the truth lies in between.