The Challenge for January 2011:
Lily revisited
Lily revisited
Years ago (we've been around for a while, oh yes!)we had 'Severus and Lily' as a monthly challenge.
![[info]](https://www.insanejournal.com/img/userinfo.gif){kind=small}
alicekinsno1 suggested to take a closer look at Lily's character:Maybe something that discusses the character of Lily more deeply? I'd love to see what some of your ideas are for just how Lily went from treating Snape so harshly and talking back to James, to being the stereotypical "saintly mother" at the end of her life. There's something about her personality that doesn't add up.
That is to say, how her apparently selfless decision to die for her baby makes sense in light of the way she treated Severus or even James. With possibly a side comment about how despite being so powerful and gifted she didn't really show any of that by dying pleading for her baby's life without even trying to take on Voldemort.
Please post your entries here or in a separate post. I'm looking forward to your entries.
If you have ideas for new challenges, please post them here. (This is a new list, your earlier suggestions are still in the old post).
If Severus is nuanced, so is Lily
"I'd love to see what some of your ideas are for just how Lily went from treating Snape so harshly and talking back to James, to being the stereotypical "saintly mother" at the end of her life. There's something about her personality that doesn't add up."
But most people are a mixture of saint and sinner. All of us are capable of being selfless, even possibly self-sacrificial ... what parent WOULDN'T be prepared to lay down their life for their own child? Even occasionally selfish people are capable of that, and who isn't moderately or occasionally selfish during their lifetimes?
You might as well say that Snape's personality 'doesn't add up', since he is committed to protecting the life of the son of the woman he loved and the man he hated. But of course, as Snape fans, we think he is the most complex and interesting character in the series ... and he is. :) To quote Frank Cottrell Boyce in The Guardian, 31 October 2010: "In these touchy feely days, it says a great deal for Rowling's skill and courage that she ever gave a central role to such a chilly and morally complex character as Snape." (YAY.)
Again, from the OP:
"That is to say, how her apparently selfless decision to die for her baby makes sense in light of the way she treated Severus or even James. With possibly a side comment about how despite being so powerful and gifted she didn't really show any of that by dying pleading for her baby's life without even trying to take on Voldemort."
Hardly anyone could 'take on' Voldemort -- even our Severus, brilliant as he is, lost at that. (GRUMBLE.) And Severus was a highly skilled and experienced wizard in his late 30s when he was murdered. Lily was only 21.
James and Lily have a sort of mythology built up around them about being a brave young couple who defied Voldemort ... but what struck me during their death scene in DH was how painfully young and vulnerable they both seemed. :(
As for the way Lily treated Severus and James, what are her crimes, exactly? She ended her friendship with Severus for hurling a racial insult at her and she called James an 'arrogant toe rag'. I fail to see how these supposed failings cancel out her courage in taking the hit for her own child. As I said: we're all a mixture of saint and sinner. Human beings are complex and nuanced. So these supposed contradictions in one of Rowling's backstory characters are hardly a big deal, IMO.
-- Pearlette
Re: If Severus is nuanced, so is Lily
As surely as Severus Snape's image, in turn, takes a journey as Harry's maturity evolves. :)
"As for the way Lily treated Severus and James, what are her crimes, exactly? She ended her friendship with Severus for hurling a racial insult at her and she called James an 'arrogant toe rag'. I fail to see how these supposed failings cancel out her courage in taking the hit for her own child. As I said: we're all a mixture of saint and sinner. Human beings are complex and nuanced."
Exactly.
custos_noctis from Livejournal
Re: If Severus is nuanced, so is Lily
What to some fans come across as flaws in direct presentation of her character are read by others as evidence of her good-natured feistiness and moral solidity, not flaws, so the events themselves don't speak for Harry's interpreting them one way or another. We never get Harry's own reflection on these things - he goes from viewing the memories to "Snape was Dumbledore's!" to naming his kid Lily, but never do we get a word as to what he thought of Lily herself - whether he thought her realistic and flawed, or still a saint, or anything else. (A lack of reflection that to me comes across as unbelievable, in fact; he seems to have no emotional issues regarding what he sees in the Pensieve in DH at all, other than 'Snape was Dumbledore's man! Ha, Voldie!'.) We don't see onscreen much of Harry's emotional growth in that vein at all; what we are supposed to believe happened (e.g. the naming of Albus Severus) takes place offscreen, so we can't really tell exactly what he thought. So it's all personal speculation, one way or the other.
custos_noctis
Re: If Severus is nuanced, so is Lily
Being dishonest with her 'friend'. She didn't really consider him her friend at the time of the werewolf incident, she lied when she said they were 'best friends'. She didn't care that he nearly died, she didn't want to hear his version. She took the rumors that originated with the Marauders as truth that didn't need examination. That is not the behavior of a friend, let alone a 'best' one.
And then during SWM all the attention she gave James while ignoring her supposed friend and not helping him at all because James was much more interesting.
I agree that her lack of social decency has nothing to do with her behavior during the moments before her death, though I have no idea whether her behavior was courageous, panicky or what.
Re: If Severus is nuanced, so is Lily
It wasn't a lie, IMO. Maybe she still wanted to believe it, because she cared about him. And I think he still cared about her -- but he simply wasn't listening to her concerns about Mulciber and Avery (which he laughed off).
She didn't care that he nearly died, she didn't want to hear his version. She took the rumors that originated with the Marauders as truth that didn't need examination. That is not the behavior of a friend, let alone a 'best' one.
I just don't think that whole thing is ... written very well, on reflection. I can see what JKR was trying to do, but it sort of fails in the execution. To be fair to Lily, Severus WAS standing in front of her plainly in one piece.
But I don't think Lily was a bitch.
And I surely cannot be the only Snape fan out there who doesn't regard Lily as a bitch.
I agree that her lack of social decency has nothing to do with her behavior during the moments before her death, though I have no idea whether her behavior was courageous, panicky or what.
Or perhaps it was a mixture of BOTH, seeing as how Lily is no saint. ;)
I know how I'd react if a psychopathic murderer threatened me and the life of my baby: I'd be a gibbering wreck. But maybe I would have enough presence of mind to try to bargain for my child's life, as well.
-- Pearlette
Re: If Severus is nuanced, so is Lily
No, you are not. I don't see her as a bitch; I see her as an ordinary girl. Nevertheless I interpret her behaviour much like Oryx does and it disappoints me, personally. I am aware that most of this disappointment stems from the high expectations by sources other than book canon, but that's the way it is. I don't like her, personal opinion, not objective judgement on her moral character. I can see her as a generally nice, even good person and still don't like her or want her as a friend. Some of the things she says to Severus are pushing every single button on my standards of friendship and that is not misogynic, because I hold boys/men to the same standards.
Agreed, but canon is what is printed and IMHO we cannot a fictional by the way her author wanted her to write, if she had been able to.
indifferenty
"It wasn't a lie."
She was definitely dishonest. Whether her description was "a lie" is a bit more debatable as it's not clear that she realised she was dishonest.
"Maybe she still wanted to believe it, because she cared about him."
Clearly she *didn't* care about him. It's explicit canon that she knows he nearly died and her "I heard what happened the other night" indicates that the incident was at least two nights ago and she hasn't discussed it with him. If she cared about him, she'd have wanted to know how he was after his near-death experience, and she'd have wanted to hear *his* side of the story rather than trusting an account that emanated from someone/s who routinely harassed and bullied him (and others).
"I just don't think that whole thing is ... written very well, on reflection."
Sorry, but that defense doesn't hold. There's a lot of HP that isn't written very well, but the story and its interpretation stands or falls on what's written, not what we'd like to see written.
"To be fair to Lily, Severus WAS standing in front of her plainly in one piece."
Alive, yes, and bearing no *visible* scars. That doesn't mean unharmed.
"I surely cannot be the only Snape fan out there who doesn't regard Lily as a bitch."
Of course you're not, but what do you imagine that proves? Each reader interprets the text in relation to their own experience of life, and naturally that leads to many differing explanations. But although Lily's vivacious, pretty and charming, there's very little evidence in the books for her ever being nice, caring or compassionate, and what's there is somewhat disputable, such as Hagrid's statement that "nicer people (than the Potters) yeh couldn't find.." James is an arrogant bully in the text, and if Hagrid's wrong about James can we trust him about Lily?
Petunia remembers Lily as a spoiled pampered princess who played nasty tricks like turning a teacup into a rat. Snape's memories show Lily as strident, judgmental, unforgiving, easily offended, and much given to name-calling, scapegoating and blame-shifting. She can be quite cold to him - look at him with "deep dislike" - even when they *are* best friends. Later, while still nominally friends, she flirts with James while Snape chokes and seems to find his sexual assault amusing. I find in her letter that she was a silly and negligent parent, and when her shade appears in the forest, *encouraging* Harry to go die, she seems even more unsavoury.
To me she seems like a prettier, perkier, more talented Petunia.
<
"It wasn't a lie."
She was definitely dishonest. Whether her description was "a lie" is a bit more debatable as it's not clear that she realised she was dishonest.
"Maybe she still wanted to believe it, because she cared about him."
Clearly she *didn't* care about him. It's explicit canon that she knows he nearly died and her "I heard what happened the other night" indicates that the incident was at least two nights ago and she hasn't discussed it with him. If she cared about him, she'd have wanted to know how he was after his near-death experience, and she'd have wanted to hear *his* side of the story rather than trusting an account that emanated from someone/s who routinely harassed and bullied him (and others).
"I just don't think that whole thing is ... written very well, on reflection."
Sorry, but that defense doesn't hold. There's a lot of HP that isn't written very well, but the story and its interpretation stands or falls on what's written, not what we'd like to see written.
"To be fair to Lily, Severus WAS standing in front of her plainly in one piece."
Alive, yes, and bearing no *visible* scars. That doesn't mean unharmed.
"I surely cannot be the only Snape fan out there who doesn't regard Lily as a bitch."
Of course you're not, but what do you imagine that proves? Each reader interprets the text in relation to their own experience of life, and naturally that leads to many differing explanations. But although Lily's vivacious, pretty and charming, there's very little evidence in the books for her ever being nice, caring or compassionate, and what's there is somewhat disputable, such as Hagrid's statement that "nicer people (than the Potters) yeh couldn't find.." James is an arrogant bully in the text, and if Hagrid's wrong about James can we trust him about Lily?
Petunia remembers Lily as a spoiled pampered princess who played nasty tricks like turning a teacup into a rat. Snape's memories show Lily as strident, judgmental, unforgiving, easily offended, and much given to name-calling, scapegoating and blame-shifting. She can be quite cold to him - look at him with "deep dislike" - even when they *are* best friends. Later, while still nominally friends, she flirts with James while Snape chokes and seems to find his sexual assault amusing. I find in her letter that she was a silly and negligent parent, and when her shade appears in the forest, *encouraging* Harry to go die, she seems even more unsavoury.
To me she seems like a prettier, perkier, more talented Petunia.
<<I know how I'd react if a psychopathic murderer threatened me and the life of my baby: I'd be a gibbering wreck.>>
I think that would be a perfectly natural and excusable reaction.
duj
Pearlette to Duj
Don't patronise me, please. 'That defence doesn't hold' my foot. All interpretation of canon is subjective. And saying that a passage could have been written better doesn't cancel out author intent. I tend towards the Doyalist view when it comes to literary analysis, i.e. the bigger picture, the out-of-universe perspective. That is just naturally the way I read a book. ANY book.
Each reader interprets the text in relation to their own experience of life, and naturally that leads to many differing explanations.
Of course it does. Which makes your interpretation of the text just as subjective as mine.
James is an arrogant bully in the text, and if Hagrid's wrong about James can we trust him about Lily?
Are no shades of shades of grey? If Severus could change from being a paid-up DE to a reformed man, then why is a different standard held for an admittedly more minor character – James? James was certainly guilty of bullying Severus during their school years and then became a dedicated Order fighter and family man. If that's difficult to believe, then the reformed Severus in his misguided youth was a member of a genocidal cult and an accessory to murder (the Potters) – OK, he’s not as culpable as Peter and Voldy but if Severus had never gone running to Voldemort with the Prophecy in the first place, the Potters wouldn’t have been targeted. If that was payback for James, it was terrible indeed. Since Severus never shows any remorse in canon for James’s death (only Lily’s), I can only assume something that the author NEVER shows me in the text. What were you saying about what we’d like to see written? Well, I’d have liked Rowling to write Severus showing some remorse about James and not just Lily (I don’t require that Severus LIKE James) just as I would have liked her to write a reconciliation scene between Severus and Harry.
Petunia remembers Lily as a spoiled pampered princess who played nasty tricks like turning a teacup into a rat.
And you don’t think Petunia’s POV on Lily is somewhat … jaundiced?
Later, while still nominally friends, she flirts with James while Snape chokes and seems to find his sexual assault amusing.
The real threat of sexual assault happens after Lily walks away, when James threatens to take off Sev’s underpants. She’s not there for the worst part of Sev’s ordeal (assuming James went ahead with it) and the reason she isn’t is that Severus called her a racial insult, which is no small potatoes.
I find in her letter that she was a silly and negligent parent
Negligent? How? You mean because she was letting a one year old Harry zoom about on a broomstick and she made a humorous remark about him nearly killing the cat?
You might find Rowling’s humour lame but that’s what it is: HUMOUR. Lighten up!
and when her shade appears in the forest, *encouraging* Harry to go die, she seems even more unsavoury.
Severus also went along with the plan for Harry to die. Against his initial protestations, sure (and I was as appalled at Dumbledore as he was!) but he went along with it.
See, I really don’t want to argue like this about Severus, because I think he rocks. But if you drag Lily down to this level, then Severus comes too. Because he knew Harry had to die. For a whole YEAR. No, he didn’t like it, but he went along with it. So that makes him better than Lily’s shade … how, exactly? And Harry accepts it and doesn’t get angry at any of them, only has doubts about Dumbledore (which he then resolves). That’s why he welcomes his family of shades in the Forest and why he honours Severus at the end of the book.
To me she seems like a prettier, perkier, more talented Petunia.
Fine. I see her differently.
-- Pearlette
Re: Pearlette to Duj
The difference between Severus and Lily is that Severus protested Albus' plan for Harry while Lily only cheered Harry on. Had I been in Harry's place I would have wanted to see my mother protesting and raging against my soon-coming death, however ineffective such protest can be wrt the events.
The whole walk through the forest didn't work for me at all - though when I read it the first time it was because by that point I was too sick of Harry and just wanted him to die already.
Re: Pearlette to Duj
Snape on the other hand is very real and alive during the last year and believes for certain that Harry will die.
Re: Pearlette to Duj
Author intent is what text allows, suggest and indicates. Authorial comment is irrelevant to the reader's textual experience. Authors own their intellectual property; they don't own the reader's interpretation.
"Which makes your interpretation of the text just as subjective as mine."
Mine is based on the text. You have just stated that yours isn't always.
"Are no shades of shades of grey?"
Not in HP-world, no. JK isn't much of a one for shades of grey or subtleties.
" If Severus could change from being a paid-up DE to a reformed man, then why is a different standard held for an admittedly more minor character – James?"
There is no different standard. There is merely presence or absence of textual evidence. There is plenty for Snape having reformed, and none for James; the little we have shows him unchanged. He's still hexing Snape in year 7, though he's Head Boy and clearly has other ways to control Snape's behaviour. By "returning" hexes (if we can trust his friends about it only being returning and not starting), he is abusing his authority. As an Order member, he and his friends withhold important information (Animagi status) from their leader and act as loose canons. As a parent, he lets a one-year-old ride a broomstick without removing hazards or the pet, and he sulks over his inability to sneak out from hiding.
"became a dedicated Order fighter and family man"
See above.
"If that was payback for James"
It wasn't payback It's quite explicit in canon that Snape had no idea the Potters were affected.
"Since Severus never shows any remorse in canon for James’s death"
"And you don’t think Petunia’s POV on Lily is somewhat … jaundiced?"
No more than Lupin's and Sirius's and Dumbledore's and Hagrid's, and for that matter Snape's. But the point is that we have no counterpoint to it. We are never shown any action of James's that is praiseworthy, unless you count the supposed rescue. I don't however, because when Lupin's account is weighed against Snape's, I find the latter fits the circumstances better. I can't understand how James could trust his family's safety to someone who had wilfully betrayed Lupin's to an enemy, nor how Lupin can be so blase about it as to call Snape's reaction "a schoolboy grudge". But if the whole thing was a group set-up to remove the only person likely to catch them in criminal behaviour it all makes sense.
"The real threat of sexual assault happens after Lily walks away"
Any forcible disrobing of another is a sexual assault, and doing it in public increases the severity of the offence.
"the reason she isn’t is that Severus called her a racial insult, which is no small potatoes."
That would be sufficient reason for her to leave. OTOH, her actions previous to this insult show that she had already stopped being his friend, she just hadn't admitted it, and therefore the insult functioned as an excuse for her to take action she intended anyway.
"Negligent? How? You mean because she was letting a one year old Harry zoom about on a broomstick and she made a humorous remark about him nearly killing the cat?"
Yes. Exactly that. I have almost as many kids as the Weasleys and my ethnic community tends to even larger families, so believe me when I tell you that even the most agile one-year-old shouldn't be rinding a broom. I don't find child negligence funny, and I'm sorry that you apparently do.
"Severus also went along with the plan for Harry to die."
Unwillingly, and because he had no better options. He certainly didn't *encourage* as shade-Lily did. What else could he realistically have done? *Tell* Harry - Harry would still follow Dumbledore. (he'd been "groomed" to do so.) Kidnap Harry? Obliviate him?
"only has doubts about Dumbledore (which he then resolves)"
Of course he resolves them. Dumbledore has groomed him just as pedophiles do their victims.
duj
Re: Pearlette to Duj
Of course they don't, and you don't own my interpretation either.
Mine is based on the text. You have just stated that yours isn't always.
I said no such thing. I said I interpreted the text using a Doyalist perspective.
Not in HP-world, no. JK isn't much of a one for shades of grey or subtleties.
And yet she created Severus Snape! Who is the ultimate in shades of grey, which is one of the reasons I love him. So the woman clearly has SOME writing ability. *snort*
There is no different standard. There is merely presence or absence of textual evidence. There is plenty for Snape having reformed, and none for James; the little we have shows him unchanged.
I'm not buying that. Last we see of James, he is an ardent young father desperately trying to save his wife and son. He is no longer Head Boy at Hogwarts but you seem determined to see him frozen forever in time as a schoolboy. This is NOT what the text shows you.
As an Order member, he and his friends withhold important information (Animagi status) from their leader and act as loose canons.
That I own. James is reckless. Heck, I don't even like James much. It is very ironic, therefore, that your extreme dislike of this character puts me in a position where I end up DEFENDING him. The irony is delicious. (As a Snape fan, I'm all about the irony!)
As a parent, he lets a one-year-old ride a broomstick without removing hazards or the pet,
I can't believe you're serious about this. Harry is a magical child with magical abilities ... comparing this to a RL situation is, I'm sorry, hilarious. You might as well complain that CS Lewis was irresponsible for allowing his pre-pubescent schoolchildren to fight real battles in Narnia!
and he sulks over his inability to sneak out from hiding.
The guy is in hiding because the world's number one psychopath just put out a death warrant on him and his family. I know I would suffer from cabin fever in the same situation.
Yes. Exactly that. I have almost as many kids as the Weasleys and my ethnic community tends to even larger families, so believe me when I tell you that even the most agile one-year-old shouldn't be rinding a broom.
It's FICTION. Rowling is a mother too. Next thing you'll be telling me is that she isn't fit to look after children!
I don't find child negligence funny, and I'm sorry that you apparently do.
Cheap, silly shot. Don't be so ridiculous, and don't put words in my mouth.
Of course he resolves them. Dumbledore has groomed him just as pedophiles do their victims.
Ugh. Thanks for that ugly mental image. You know, I don't like Dumbledore much either, but that's a really offensive analogy. You falsely accused me of not caring about child negligence. I'm calling YOU out on using a highly inappropriate analogy and therefore trivialising and cheapening the horrible issue of child sex abuse.
It really is a waste of time here trying to discuss Lily's character in a more positive light, isn't it? Dissenting opinions are not allowed.
-- Pearlette
Re: If Severus is nuanced, so is Lily
duj brought up most of what there is to address Lily's faults (as well as why 'badly executed' doesn't wash - now that I know how things turned out, 90% of HP is 'badly executed' - things I thought were meaningful didn't have what I saw in them) no need for me to repeat her.
I'll add that when she speaks of making excuses for him, she speaks of making excuses to her friends, not her other friends. She gives herself away there - she didn't really think of him as a friend.
What Severus laughed off was Lily's accusation that his friends were doing Dark Magic and he found it funny. Since we don't have a canon definition of Dark Arts I can't judge who is right in that exchange. (We do have canon evidence that outside the Gryffindor common room people have more nuanced views of 'Dark Arts'.) It does seem that Lily has fallen into the fallacy common among Gryffindors that merely labeling magic as Dark makes it the worst thing possible, and any magic, however harmful, that isn't labeled Dark is better.
But maybe I would have enough presence of mind to try to bargain for my child's life, as well.
Maybe in a magical universe this makes sense - one of you might accidentally say something with binding power. In the universe I inhabit bargaining with a murderer by offering the life of the only aware witness is pointless - who would hold the murderer to hir word?
Re: If Severus is nuanced, so is Lily
It is obvious that I WASN'T attributing it to you.
duj brought up most of what there is to address Lily's faults (as well as why 'badly executed' doesn't wash -
Oh, yes, it DOES wash. And you know it. You don't have a monopoly on robust critique of Rowling's writing.
The thing is, I'm open to fresh takes on Rowling's characters, warts and all, including Lily. Are you?
-- Pearlette
Pearlette and duj
Re: Pearlette and duj
It is difficult not to respond sharply when one feels one is being patronised. However, I hope I am responding sharply to the ARGUMENT rather than the PERSON. And asking a fellow poster if they are open to alternative POVs is, IMO, a reasonable stance to take.
The OP interested me, hence my participation in this discussion. :)
-- Pearlette
Re: If Severus is nuanced, so is Lily
I'm an old woman, and see young Snape (at the time of the Werewolf Incident) as a deeply hurt and angry child, but I don't expect a young girl as Lily to understand that, or to help him, where the adults around him has failed. But they had supposedly been close friends for several years, thoug they might have drifted apart - so why isn't she more interested in his version of the story? You write "I can se, what JKR was trying to do..." Would you mind expanding this? What do you think, JKR was trying to show us, considering Lily (and Snape, of course).
Anna M
Re: If Severus is nuanced, so is Lily
I think that JKR was trying to show that Lily's concerns about the direction Sev's life was going in had led to strains on their friendship. We see this in the text when she challenges him (nicely) on his hanging out with Mulciber and Avery because she is concerned about the malicious pranking they are into, i.e. the 'evil' thing they do to Mary Macdonald (which is never spelled out, of course). I don't have a problem with that because I don't like being spoonfed by an author. We can surmise that it was Dark Magic or something very vindictive. Whatever it was, Lily is upset about it and upset that Sev hangs out with people who do stuff like this.
Rather than take on board what Lily is saying, Sev at once deflects the conversation to the Marauders and how awful THEY are. I'm not a Marauders fan and you will never hear me justify their behaviour to him (SWM appalls me). And I do see why readers find Lily cold in her reaction to Sev re: the Werewolf incident.
All I'm saying is, Sev had a case to answer for to Lily as well ... in that HE was hanging around with people who had no problem in insulting and persecuting people of Lily's blood heritage.
Now you can say that was because of peer pressure. I personally find that plausible speculation, especially when the likes of Lucius Malfoy welcome 11 year old Sev to the Slytherin table after his Sorting. But it IS speculation only, because there's no direct evidence for that in canon.
-- Pearlette
Re: If Severus is nuanced, so is Lily
RE what Mulciber did: from Lily's comment we cannot surmise that it was in fact supposed to be dark magic, evil, vindictive, or anything else. Just as from Severus' comment we cannot surmise that it was not any of those things. (And note Mulciber did not in fact do anything, he merely tried to do something - making it even more speculative as to what went down.)
All those comments tell us are what Severus and Lily each personally BELIEVE it to have been. It is all hearsay. And neither of them was present when it happened, so it is all belief, nothing grounded in direct witnessing. Since we do not see the incident itself or have a report of it from someone we have evidence to believe is telling only the facts, with no personal interest in the matter, we have no way of judging whether Severus or Lily is correct or not about it. We know absolutely nothing about what happened, except that Mulciber TRIED to do SOMETHING to Mary the other day and Mary did not find it nice.
This isn't about the relative morality of whatever Mulciber tried to do, I mean, it's about the fact that we can't make assumptions about what happened and treat them as fact based only on the testimony of characters not present at the time and who have clear emotional stakes in seeing it read one way or another. Lily thinks it was evil dark magic (and seems to think all dark magic is evil; whether all dark magic actually is evil is never directly answered in the text). Severus thinks it wasn't evil, whatever kind of magic it was (and doesn't seem to think all dark magic is evil), and wants to know why Lily finds it worse than what her own housemates do. Yes, he deflects, but so does Lily; they both have emotional stakes in this. Is Severus right? Is Lily? Are both? Is neither right? The text doesn't say, so it's all speculation and interpretation.
Lily, Sev, Mary, dark magic
Presumably, since Mary is also in Gryffindor, Lily saw the direct after-effects of whatever was done to Mary. Maybe Mary went into the Gryffindor Common Room crying her eyes out and sought solace from her fellow girlfriends there, like Lily. Seeing a distressed Mary and comforting her would obviously colour Lily's take on things.
Lily thinks it was evil dark magic (and seems to think all dark magic is evil; whether all dark magic actually is evil is never directly answered in the text).
I disagree, I think it is answered in the text. The Unforgivables are obviously Dark Magic, so is 'Sectumsempra' (because its effects are so ghastly, it literally cuts people up). Of course none of that excuses Gryffindors behaving like pillocks to anyone else, or using 'ordinary' magic to be a pain in the butt.
But I believe the reason why JKR paints Dark Magic as evil in the series is this: she doesn't want her fictional witchcraft being perceived as evil. So she contrasts Dark Magic, i.e. magic that hurts people, with the 'ordinary' but powerful magic that her wizards use because that's what and who they are: they are magical people who can do magic! And there's nothing evil about magic in this universe, except when it's used to hurt people and when it is used deliberately in the service of evil, e.g. Dark Magic. As a practising Christian, I found this point quite an important one from the author.
The text doesn't say, so it's all speculation and interpretation.
Well, fine. I have no problem with that. Except I suppose that we have to come down on one side or the other, LOL. Either the reader gives Lily the benefit of the doubt, i.e. that her concerns about Mulciber and Avery had substance, or not.
-- Pearlette
Re: If Severus is nuanced, so is Lily
Re: If Severus is nuanced, so is Lily