The Challenge for January 2011:
Lily revisited
Lily revisited
Years ago (we've been around for a while, oh yes!)we had 'Severus and Lily' as a monthly challenge.
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alicekinsno1 suggested to take a closer look at Lily's character:Maybe something that discusses the character of Lily more deeply? I'd love to see what some of your ideas are for just how Lily went from treating Snape so harshly and talking back to James, to being the stereotypical "saintly mother" at the end of her life. There's something about her personality that doesn't add up.
That is to say, how her apparently selfless decision to die for her baby makes sense in light of the way she treated Severus or even James. With possibly a side comment about how despite being so powerful and gifted she didn't really show any of that by dying pleading for her baby's life without even trying to take on Voldemort.
Please post your entries here or in a separate post. I'm looking forward to your entries.
If you have ideas for new challenges, please post them here. (This is a new list, your earlier suggestions are still in the old post).
Re: Pearlette to Duj
RE James: yes, he seems to have been a devoted father and husband from what little we see. That however has nothing to do with whether he reformed regarding the questionable behavior we do see from him, which is oriented mainly towards other characters, not those in his family. A person can be a wonderful loving family man and a sadistic camp guard (for example, not saying James is that) at the same time: they are different contexts, with different people, and the person's behavior in one situation does not relate in a redemptive/nonredemptive way or predict hir behavior in the other. The family love can be quite genuine when the sadism towards the prisoners is also real, and the one does not excuse or cancel out the other. Take Lucius for instance. Although he definitely has questionable attitudes and does bad things, he seems to clearly love Draco and want the best for him. Teaching him those questionable attitudes, from our perspective, may look like bad parenting, but from his understanding of the world he's trying to help Draco be successful. He's wrong in his attitude, not uncaring as a parent. But his love for Draco has no relation to whether or not he is redeemed regarding the question of having joined Voldie.
James is not mainly talked about as 'reformed' or not regarding moving from being a bad parent to a good one; the question of whether he's reformed has to do with how he treats specific people he does not like and certain problematic attitudes that he has. Snape is the central example here, and we never see anything to indicate that his behavior or attitude towards Snape changed. His regard for Lily and Harry has nothing to do with it. So yes, he's decent *within that situation,* I agree. But that does not weigh as evidence that he changed at all regarding the flaws we see him display with Snape.
Regarding his 'cabin fever:' yes, it's natural to feel that way. But what differentiates the mature from the immature is the attitude one takes towards it and how one handles the situation. A mature person, understanding the risk, would say to themselves 'This is really getting to me, but given the consequences I had better just deal with it the best I can, it won't last forever. My wife and son are in danger, not just me; I can't do anything that might jeopardize them even if I hate it here.' And would just deal with it. Not complain about it and sulk, not keep saying they wish they could sneak out and be reckless again. If they discussed how they felt with their family, it would be more along the lines of 'you know, I really hate being cooped up like this, but I understand why we've got to do it. It won't be forever. I'll do the best I can to handle it.' Given that we never see such an attitude expressed by James regarding everything else, there's not much evidence that he felt that way about hiding, and Lily's letter certainly would still fit with a reading of James as having a rather immature attitude about it all.
And yes, he's young. I know. It's understandable, but that doesn't mean he's free from criticism over it, especially since he felt old and mature enough to be able to sign up for a life-and-death struggle in which he is not the only one at risk. Taking on that sort of role brings with it expectations and responsibilities, a need to grow up because your life isn't the only one potentially on the line. If he's going to play soldier, it's only fair to expect him to make an effort to fulfill the part responsibly, which includes learning to give up immature attitudes. And IMO I don't think we ever see that from him, understandable though his situation might be. I don't think there's evidence that that notion even ever really *registered* with him. One can speculate that it did, but that is not present in the text.
Pearlette to 00sevvie
Just a bit, eh? ;)
Regarding his 'cabin fever:' yes, it's natural to feel that way. But what differentiates the mature from the immature is the attitude one takes towards it and how one handles the situation. A mature person, understanding the risk, would say to themselves 'This is really getting to me, but given the consequences I had better just deal with it the best I can, it won't last forever. My wife and son are in danger, not just me; I can't do anything that might jeopardize them even if I hate it here.' And would just deal with it. Not complain about it and sulk, not keep saying they wish they could sneak out and be reckless again. If they discussed how they felt with their family, it would be more along the lines of 'you know, I really hate being cooped up like this, but I understand why we've got to do it. It won't be forever. I'll do the best I can to handle it.' Given that we never see such an attitude expressed by James regarding everything else, there's not much evidence that he felt that way about hiding, and Lily's letter certainly would still fit with a reading of James as having a rather immature attitude about it all.
But this is projecting onto the text. All Lily’s letter says is that James is a bit unhappy about being cooped up, not that he’s ‘complaining and sulking’ and bugging her about it.
If they discussed how they felt with their family, it would be more along the lines of 'you know, I really hate being cooped up like this, but I understand why we've got to do it. It won't be forever. I'll do the best I can to handle it.'
Well, maybe James did that very thing. Except that he didn’t, nor did he do what you have suggested, i.e. moan and complain, because he isn’t real and none of this ever happened. :D
In any case … this thread is supposed to be about Lily. Back to her parenting skills:
It's the attitude of young inexperienced parents who are sincere in their love but who IMHO still haven't got the responsibility aspect down perfectly.
Or maybe they’re just a couple of young wizards who know very well that a wizarding baby won’t come to any harm if he’s whizzing about on his baby broomstick. It’s not exactly analogous to a real-life situation.
And maybe Lily’s comment about little Harry nearly killing the cat is a joke and not to be taken so literally. That’s how I read it, certainly.
-- Pearlette
Re: Pearlette to 00sevvie
It's true it only says James was unhappy and 'tried not to show it,' yes - but the immediate next line is that Dumbledore has the cloak, "so no chance of a little excursion." Which suggests that his unhappiness is directly tied to the fact that he can't go out and run wild has he has done before whenever he used the cloak. His behavior in the Prologue also fits with this reading far more than with a reading that he offscreen smartened up about it during the short time all this was going on. It's speculation, but the text provides clear evidence of one personality for him and nothing directly supporting any change of heart, so Occam's razor would dictate that he's probably still the somewhat immature person we've seen all along when Lily was writing her letter. But itself, yes, it doesn't prove he was, you are right there. It simply fails to provide any evidence to the contrary, and the text provides such evidence nowhere else.
RE Harry and the broom: I'm with annoni-no here. Just because they have magic doesn't mean the child is immune from harm. It just means it's quicker to fix a broken bone - that's still harm to the child whether it takes ten minutes or several weeks to heal. Also, a vase falling on his head could kill him instantly, and no magic would fix that. Even if the cat thing is a joke, it's still irresponsible. But again, I think JKR's tone shifts might be part of the problem here.
Re: Pearlette to 00sevvie
But an equally likely reading of Lily's simple statement in that letter is that James wished he could get out of the house so he could fight on behalf of his wife and kid, do Order stuff. Obviously the right thing was for him to stay put, but he could hardly help feeling anxious and twitchy about it.
But again, I think JKR's tone shifts might be part of the problem here.
Well, OK. I'm not bothered by tone shifts in a book which sometimes has humour in order to lighten the darkness. But I, personally, don't see it as a problem. This is a fantasy setting, so I'm not inclined to disapprove of a magical mother who allows her magical baby to fly around on his broomstick.
-- Pearlette
Re: Pearlette to 00sevvie
I wouldn't have a problem with the tone if using humor to lighten a situation was all she did. But to me and to others that I know the tone shifts are too great and simply do not work. It is as if she was trying to write in two different genres at the same time. Laughing at someone unpleasant who had been traumatized by a wild animal, for example, would work in a cartoonish genre (we do it all the time with Looney Tunes and the like); it's part of the genre and isn't meant to be read in terms of real-world morality. In a realistic genre, that same laughter would indicate a severely-empathy deprived or morally callous character. Thus a lot of the argument that goes on about Snape and the 'Prank' or the Trio laughing at Umbridge; one group is reading it more cartoonishly than another group, and both are right/wrong because the text itself can't seem to decide if the violence is in fact cartoonish or realistic.
Re: Pearlette to Duj
I can understand complaining (maybe not to Lily), but sneaking off is crazy. And obviously, it could be argued that one could lead to/encourage the other.
-Leah