The Challenge for January 2011:
Lily revisited
Lily revisited
Years ago (we've been around for a while, oh yes!)we had 'Severus and Lily' as a monthly challenge.
![[info]](https://www.insanejournal.com/img/userinfo.gif){kind=small}
alicekinsno1 suggested to take a closer look at Lily's character:Maybe something that discusses the character of Lily more deeply? I'd love to see what some of your ideas are for just how Lily went from treating Snape so harshly and talking back to James, to being the stereotypical "saintly mother" at the end of her life. There's something about her personality that doesn't add up.
That is to say, how her apparently selfless decision to die for her baby makes sense in light of the way she treated Severus or even James. With possibly a side comment about how despite being so powerful and gifted she didn't really show any of that by dying pleading for her baby's life without even trying to take on Voldemort.
Please post your entries here or in a separate post. I'm looking forward to your entries.
If you have ideas for new challenges, please post them here. (This is a new list, your earlier suggestions are still in the old post).
Re: If Severus is nuanced, so is Lily
duj brought up most of what there is to address Lily's faults (as well as why 'badly executed' doesn't wash - now that I know how things turned out, 90% of HP is 'badly executed' - things I thought were meaningful didn't have what I saw in them) no need for me to repeat her.
I'll add that when she speaks of making excuses for him, she speaks of making excuses to her friends, not her other friends. She gives herself away there - she didn't really think of him as a friend.
What Severus laughed off was Lily's accusation that his friends were doing Dark Magic and he found it funny. Since we don't have a canon definition of Dark Arts I can't judge who is right in that exchange. (We do have canon evidence that outside the Gryffindor common room people have more nuanced views of 'Dark Arts'.) It does seem that Lily has fallen into the fallacy common among Gryffindors that merely labeling magic as Dark makes it the worst thing possible, and any magic, however harmful, that isn't labeled Dark is better.
But maybe I would have enough presence of mind to try to bargain for my child's life, as well.
Maybe in a magical universe this makes sense - one of you might accidentally say something with binding power. In the universe I inhabit bargaining with a murderer by offering the life of the only aware witness is pointless - who would hold the murderer to hir word?
Re: If Severus is nuanced, so is Lily
It is obvious that I WASN'T attributing it to you.
duj brought up most of what there is to address Lily's faults (as well as why 'badly executed' doesn't wash -
Oh, yes, it DOES wash. And you know it. You don't have a monopoly on robust critique of Rowling's writing.
The thing is, I'm open to fresh takes on Rowling's characters, warts and all, including Lily. Are you?
-- Pearlette
Pearlette and duj
Re: Pearlette and duj
It is difficult not to respond sharply when one feels one is being patronised. However, I hope I am responding sharply to the ARGUMENT rather than the PERSON. And asking a fellow poster if they are open to alternative POVs is, IMO, a reasonable stance to take.
The OP interested me, hence my participation in this discussion. :)
-- Pearlette
Re: Pearlette and ...
Thanks.
Re: Pearlette and ...
OTOH, I don't resile from what I said. A lot of what the HP-verse presents as funny is cruel and ugly, grooming a child to be a soldier/sacrifice is every bit as predatory and abusive as grooming him/her for sex, and accusing others of intolerance merely because they persist in holding views different to your own is the height of intolerance and debate-stifling.
duj
Re: Pearlette and ...
If you throw arguments back and forth a few times and realize that you can't convince your 'opponent' because you're both convinced that you are right, then it is better to stop and agree to disagree otherwise it goes on endlessly and no one benefits from it except your and your opponents ego. Those who have the last word or talk the longest aren't always right, and with interpretation of fictional text there is no right or wrong anyway. As soon as you have to explain humour or morals you've lost anyway because then you left the fictional world and went into personal mode.
Of course you stand by what you said, but agreeing to disagree isn't giving up your stand. It's acknowledging that the discussion doesn't go anywhere and you can either continue it with someone else with whom you can lead it in a more productive way, or just let it be until the next time.
Re: Pearlette and ...
Sylvana, I was responding to BEING needled. If all this was a mere matter of differing opinions, there would be no problem. But I was accused by Duj of ignoring the text and then told I 'had no problem with child negligence'. That kind of needling/baiting is totally unncessary: I quite agree.
… and accusing others of intolerance merely because they persist in holding views different to your own is the height of intolerance and debate-stifling.
That’s right, Duj. Insinuating that someone who disagrees with you has 'no problem with' child abuse and cruelty to cats certainly comes under the umbrella of ‘intolerance and debate-stifling’.
I don't object to you disagreeing with me about Lily. But I won't tolerate personal attacks.
-- Pearlette
Re: Pearlette and ...
I expect the visitors here (except for the trolls and associates) to act like adults. If this goes on, I'll freeze the thread.
Re: Pearlette and duj