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geoffsebesta ([info]geoffsebesta) wrote in [info]scans_daily,
@ 2009-08-25 08:17:00

Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Entry tags:creator: keith giffen, creator: larry mahlstedt, creator: steve lightle, publisher: dc comics, theme: panel layout, title: legion of super-heroes

Legion of Super-Giffen, Prologue III
But Keith Giffen left the book.

They say it was the poster that did him in.

This poster:

http://unnecessaryg.com/lsh/GiffenPoster2083x755.jpg

Ah yes. The famous compositional style, unique to 80s DC, of people randomly standing around in the air

wonder why nobody does that anymore.

Keith Giffen, I adore Keith Giffen. His career is filled with brilliant ideas that don't work. He's tried everything. Most none of it works. BUT HE DID IT!

He was "co-plotter and designer" for issues #3-#5. That probably means he did breakdowns. He was assisted by Steve Lightle, who draws great robots and weird faces. Inked by Mahlstedt, whose work here raises the eternal question,



LSH v3#3



Okay, look at the composition here. Even though this is essentially a flat field in which nothing happens besides FIGHT, there is an amazing structure here.

Splash-page crowd-scene dynamics are baffling me in my own work right now, so let's take a minute to examine it.

Giffen has a page that expresses only the eternal concept of two gangs beating on each other. (It would be fun to see the original art for this)

What order does he want us to read this in?



This page is only about direction. It's about movement, and vectors, and absolutely nothing else. There is nothing in this page but things colliding against other things, right?

Not even a background. It's as if a piece of blank paper came to life and started beating the crap out of itself.

Obviously they want you to read the masthead first. You come in with the bullet, the creators and the title. This comic was sort of unusual and "prestige" in that it had the creators named on the cover.

That shade of blue in the title is never used again. By the way, did you know that the Russians have separate words for light blue and dark blue? They consider them two different colors.

Now, two things break the logo -- the yellow of Lazon, and Wildfire's head. Lazon is Yellow, and he's not the only yellow on the page, but there is only one Yellow. Yellow blends with white and yet has a tremendous urgency. So the yellow fields are used to direct the eye, and they say only one thing -- down and to the right.

Wildfire takes the more interesting path. Let us say the "story" path, though there is no particular story here. THose viewing this get a sense of urgency from it, but no sense of narrative per se. Don't get me wrong; I bet it sold well and it is a very pleasing work. But it's not the sort of thing that impresses details on the mind, you know what I'm saying? It's oddly reminiscent of the wallpaper in a child's room. Story here mostly serves to entertain the artist and get them through the assignment.

And to impress those who like to think too hard about such things.



1. ZAP. Let's start off with bright red, breaking the logo. The supersaturated magenta commands the eye to travel past the dull purple of Chameleon's leg and Phantom Girl's awkwardly drawn crotch to

2. ORANGE. The next color in the progression from red (the entire rainbow is represented on this page), and this is where it gets interesting because the direction fragments. The dynamism of the page springs from this moment. The clear path of the eye scatters at that point (echoed with tiny yellow shards ) into two paths.

3. PATH ONE. Back over Terrax (to Chameleon King. who forms the outer frame of the work, driving you over (past Phantom Girl again...}


Okay, it is time that we address the issue of phallic imagery in this piece.

Okay, it's a piece about thrusting and colliding, so you know it's gonna have some sort of phallic imagery. How could you do it otherwise? How could you draw this page in a way that didn't.

That said.

There is a fist exploding from Chameleon Boy's crotch and punching Timber Wolf in the face.

So. I don't know if I want this analysis to be about the sexual politics of 80s comics, because they were quite bad. And there's all sorts of hinkey stuff in here, there's some bondage stuff going on with Ayla right now and a bisexual tentacle rape in a couple issues... I can't decide to ignore this stuff, or laugh about it, or harrumph a lot. What do you think?

This one I think we're gonna laugh about it.

So where were me? Oh, yes. Chameleon King was menacing Phantom Girl's vagina with a mace. And also punching Chameleon Boy in such a way as to create a frame and carry you to:

4. Colors are cooling down and desaturating as we travel further away from the magenta explosion. Blok is also back here, but only colored so as to provide a bumper, a shadowed area to reinforce the movement.



5. I don't mean to imply that there are two paths here, but your eye is travelling slower by this point, and the area of attention opens up far the end. The purple bar of her arm and the look on her eyes (and remember the viewer always follows the eyes of the characters on the page) brings the entire weight of the page down on:

6. Ultra Boy, and boy does it look like it hurts. Nice jaw.

7. Shadow Girl, who does nothing on this page but produce a cool special effect for Lazon to burst (probably phallus-like) through in the center and to look pointedly down there at 6.

8. A "shadowed" area. It mostly serves as a dual convergence point, which is why it has its own, cool, color. Perhaps this area carries the most "story", as readers of the magazine would probably impute the most significance to their fight. The dual convergence there produces a not-entirely-unpleasant "wobbling" effect, as it is unclear whether she is kicking his head or springing off of it, and his body language doesn't help. But it's amply clear something's happening, so I vote this my favorite spot.



This will be important later.



Compare and contrast with this page (from last issue):



Variations on a theme. Musically, you could say last issue's was the verse and this issue's is the breakdown. I prefer the second, though Giffen's rendering has so much more appeal than Lightle's.

However, Lightle's trademark "expressionless eyes" have never been put to such fine effect. Giffen was only able to get an approximation of a steely stare by using a cut-and-paste panel*. If you could get Giffen's eyes on Mekt and Lightle's eyes on Ayla...

Which raises the question:

Mahlstedt inked them both. So we know he can draw it both ways. So why didn't he?



Neat. By the way, weird tricks with panel borders often go awry, but that one works.



I believe there are five or six pages like this in this issue. I really think there's a relationship between that and the poster. I can see why this would burn someone out.



Good point. And a panel that would do Ed Wood proud. Those magenta-and-yellow spheres are important or something.



Esper Lass rockin' the Blok, followed by:

STEVE LIGHTLE'S FINEST HOUR.

If any artist can be said to have a greatest panel, it's probably this, and that's in spite of Captain Hookah-Hand there. And the awful expressions.

Okay, maybe it's just the nostalgia talking. But I remember them using that panel in an ad for the RPG, and I remember nodding and saying, good choice guys. Ya summed it up.



meh. HAW. Whuh?

I love that weird alien teleporty guy. He gets his time to shine when Joe Orlando draws him, so I dub him Sea Monkey of Space.


*back when that literally meant cutting and pasting. After a long visit to the Photostat Department, that is.


(Post a new comment)


[info]jlroberson
2009-08-25 09:14 am UTC (link)
The problem every LSH artist always faced--and why Perez was the only one who would have been able to handle L3W--is that there's just too many characters for most to handle and maintain coherence, and that poster is an excellent example. Even the best artist might be reduced to creating unreadable muck with all that.

Lightle's weird. When I was young I was very taken with his surface, which is very cool. But recently looking at these stories again, I was struck by how howlingly bad his anatomy and proportions often were.

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[info]geoffsebesta
2009-08-25 09:40 am UTC (link)
Looking through it again, I am very impressed by his robots and by his obvious adoption of things he learned from Giffen, but subtly unsettled by his faces and poor body language. I don't want to be dismissive of him, especially as he is still working and I find him to be a very good artist in a lot of ways. But I think putting him besides Giffen says it all -- his stuff is, for some reason, motionless. It simply doesn't bounce. One of his best tricks is to freeze a motion at the best moment, and some of his finest work has that sports-photography feel of a perfect instant frozen in time.

People keep mentioning L3W, I suppose I shall read it.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)


[info]jlroberson
2009-08-25 09:59 am UTC (link)
It's very much just for fans, but it's good.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)


[info]geoffsebesta
2009-08-26 04:49 am UTC (link)
Just not as good.

Wonder why.

I'm sure that Lightle would love it if people respected him the way they respect Giffen. But then, we would love it if his pages were as good as Giffen's -- everybody would win.

Between the acceptance of the assignment, and the turning in of the completed work, lies the shadow...

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]geoffsebesta
2009-08-26 05:48 am UTC (link)
oh, I thought you meant Lightle. Legion 3W is good, check, I'll read it.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]icon_uk
2009-08-25 10:42 am UTC (link)
IIRC That last alien is Zymyr of the Gil'dishpan, who used Yodaspeak a lot. (And why not, not all aliens would comprehend Interlac the same way)

The Gil'dishpan were involved in the "Invasion!" event too, leading to a joke at some point in (IIRC) the post-ZH Legion where one of them mentions the lousy cheapjack translator-device they'd had a thousand years previously which meant their race, instead of the correct "Gil'dan" were half named after a kitchen utensil, a name that STILL haunted them despite their efforts to correct it.

And I like the Legion poster (I still have a copy soimewhere). Yes, it's overcrowded, but this is the Legion, that's sort of the point. And coming up with a scene which would allow for heroes, villains and non-combatants to interact plausibly would have given DaVinci a headache (Even Perez didn't draw them ALL at the same time). It's the fact he actually took the time to redesign some of the costumes of the "one shot wonders" that also impresses. They've changed, but are still recognisable as who they are. And being able to name most of the characters was a mark of superior geekitude! :)

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]geoffsebesta
2009-08-25 02:39 pm UTC (link)
How big is that poster in real life? It seems like it would take up the wall of a room.

The composition on the poster is very good too, if I had to nitpick anything it would be the anatomy. I never realized how different large-form single-image composition was until I looked at this. It's totally different rules from pages with panels.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]greenmask
2009-08-25 12:16 pm UTC (link)
I do like these art analysis posts that you do. They're tricky to reply to beyond "oh yeah! you're right!" but I like them!

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]geoffsebesta
2009-08-25 02:37 pm UTC (link)
Thanks! They're a lot of fun to do.

I started a community that's supposed to be nothing but that:

http://community.livejournal.com/omnicomment/

Sort of like a scans_daily for everything.

But haven't gotten around to doing much with it yet, besides reposting these.

It would be great if you want to join that, even post some analysis of your own.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)


[info]greenmask
2009-08-25 04:50 pm UTC (link)
I might just do that!

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)


[info]geoffsebesta
2009-08-26 05:49 am UTC (link)
Everybody's welcome.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]kingrockwell
2009-08-25 03:35 pm UTC (link)
Oh wow, that poster is just--Daaaammn! I've mostly loved Keith Giffen to death for his sense of humor, but I can't help but respect him as an artist after seeing that thing. I can really appreciate how that could've burnt a dude out!

And the punching-the-Tyr-fellow panel is laid out kind of weird, like the big guy's arm (i don't know who that is!) and the motion lines are conflicting, trying to point in two different directions, but the point they intersect at lends to the action still, and doesn't quite break it up (or at least doesn't if you look at it hard enough, 'cos it did a number on me when i first glanced at it).

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]geoffsebesta
2009-08-26 05:47 am UTC (link)
There is a lot of precedent for that kind of work, but it's all in the Renaissance and the Victorian eras. There is a very good and clear composition there; I was amazed by it. It's an amazing achievement and I'd really like to know how big it is in real life. It looks like it's meant to be wallpaper.


The thing about Tyr panel is that when you read it at reading speed, it gives the impression of tremendous impact, but when you slow down and take it at studying speed, it begins to sort of...wobble. Same as ML and Vi on the cover.

Ain't much that hits harder than a strong line against the flow of the page.

Oh, that's Colossal Boy there.

If I understand what you're saying there, what you're noticing is that the eye enters from the above right directly over Tyr's hand and to his face, and that's where the wobbling happens. You actually have lines pointing directly at the fist over 120 degrees, from 10 o'clock to 3 o'clock.

It's ain't subtle! But boy does it work.

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[info]perletwo
2009-08-25 04:19 pm UTC (link)
The pink and yellow orb is a power sphere, sort of a generator on steroids tough enough to provide juice for a small planet. The LoSV is stealing it.

Previously in this series, they stole a new transparent planetary security shield out from around Earth. Hmmm....

If I'm not mistaken, the scope of their nefarious plan should become clear in the next post in your series. Good gravy, how I love Eye for an Eye!

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[info]geoffsebesta
2009-08-26 05:35 am UTC (link)
Pink and yellow being the brightest colors they could make at the time.

The_lassiter just posted issue #4 yesterday!: http://asylums.insanejournal.com/scans_daily/853749.html

I'm gonna post a page or two as I go by but they pretty much nailed it.

An unexpected side-effect of this series, which was really about Giffen, has been a resurgence of interest in the Legion -- I'm finally going through and really reading about it. It's a fascinating, if entirely dorky, field of endeavour.

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[info]perletwo
2009-08-26 08:55 am UTC (link)
Whoo, missed that post and a couple of the ones around it completely! So yeah, obviously that's the powersphere OF DEATH.

I really love the Levitz/Giffen era Legion. Not even so much for the plot, just for that shiny, Apple computer-ish clean lined vision of how the worlds of the future look and function. I've been looking at a few old Superboy & the Legion issues the last couple days and all the elements are there, but it took that team to really pull them into focus.

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[info]ashtoreth
2009-08-26 03:07 am UTC (link)
This's pretty self-explanatory, isn't it? Doesn't seem to need a byblow, so I'll just comment.

YES, I loved the name Gil'DISHPAN. And their completely freaky look (It's like, what? Where's the--? What is the purpose of--?). And speaking of freaky legionnaires OMG did you see Tellus in Adventure 1????

I never took the time to note who did the not-quite-as-good art, but yes, it's markedly different. I hated the way Lightle did Dream Girl. I dunno what it is, she'd always come across before as this beautiful statuesque model always making the perfect move because she saw it all coming. That panel makes her look all jiggly. :/

That first panel of Lightning Lord..he's so cock-of-the-walk. :) "I have a penis!"

I enjoyed the random chaos of the battle. You could tell it was too fast and furious for planning, that people were switching tactics and partners, and oh, of course Micro Lad got knocked out first--and then Timber Wolf because he leads with his chin.

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[info]geoffsebesta
2009-08-26 05:32 am UTC (link)
"did you see Tellus in Adventure 1"

no, where?

I think they drew a bunch of fight pages, picked their favorites, and ran them. This is one of the most fight-fight-fight issues I've ever read.

To be fair, neither Lightle nor Giffen draw Dream Girl particularly well. It's not until Al Gordon starts inking the book that she begins to look alright.


Yeah, Lightning Lord totally looks like Space Ghost there!

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[info]ashtoreth
2009-08-26 06:21 am UTC (link)
Pretty sure it's Adventure 1, the new Superboy storyline, with the backup Legion story. We see a strange muck creature thinking about Luthor, then later Starman shows up and it's Tellus!

(Reply to this) (Parent)



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