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Sharon Carter ([info]agentthirteen) wrote in [info]incompletedata,
@ 2017-06-24 01:58:00

Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Entry tags:daria: daria morgendorffer, dc: comics: pamela isley, dc: supergirl: alex danvers, marvel: (fox/x-men): jean grey, marvel: (fox/x-men): wade wilson, marvel: comics: emma frost, marvel: comics: hope summers, marvel: comics: max eisenhardt, marvel: comics: remy lebeau, marvel: comics: sharon carter, marvel: comics: steve rogers (hydra), marvel: comics: tony stark, marvel: xmen tas: rogue, star wars: canon: bail organa, star wars: canon: han solo, star wars: canon: jedikiller, star wars: canon: mon mothma, supernatural: jo harvelle, the expanse: james holden, wittgenstein: mike

We are all victims of this inhumane violation of our rights. None of us had any choice in this, and we will remember who is responsible for our captivity and the threats they hold over our heads. Whether you choose to play along or sit out is your choice. However the actions we take, the choices that we make here, are our responsibility. Violence and reckless destruction are not excusable, especially not when those you are harming are not our captors but each other.

We are among many individuals who have criminal histories- murderers and psychopaths. Because of our situation, we have viewed them as on our side in hopes they would cooperate for the good of the group. We do not want conflict, but now they have brought it to us through the horrific behavior displayed at the midway. I am highly disappointed.

Do we excuse these actions as allowable given the circumstances, or do we form a system to keep each other accountable?

Many of us come from different realities with different methods of governance, law, and justice. Or lack of. It is important that we recognize and respect this. We cannot impose any system upon the rest and call it fair unless we have majority support.

So I propose an open forum to discuss what rules we find necessary to put in place, what consequences are appropriate, and who we trust amongst us to uphold order. And if you feel differently, you are also welcome to express dissent.



(Post a new comment)


[info]miserychick
2017-06-24 06:03 pm UTC (link)
We're already in a shitty situation without experimenting with jurisprudence.

Say the scientists are ordering them to burn things. If they refuse, they could be forcing their entire block to do some group punishment. If the go along with it, either out of fear of scientists or the Mob Justice League, it's not really any better. It just sets up a system of damned if you do, damned if you don't

But even if they just want to burn things, I'm not sure we should shut it down. Who was it, Malcolm X who said the riot is the language of the unheard?

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]agentthirteen
2017-06-24 07:26 pm UTC (link)
So do we go on the assumption that all acts of lawlessness are the fault of the scientists and therefore permissible? Where do you draw the line?

I agree that our situation is outright shitty, but it becomes increasingly worse especially for those unable to protect themselves if we use that as an excuse to get away with whatever actions we wish and bring harm upon each other.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]miserychick, 2017-06-24 11:45 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]agentthirteen, 2017-06-25 05:20 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]miserychick, 2017-06-25 06:55 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]agentthirteen, 2017-06-25 07:22 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]miserychick, 2017-06-25 08:01 am UTC

[info]jedikiller
2017-06-24 06:03 pm UTC (link)
I maintain that I was not the cause of what happened. I was attacked, unprovoked and not premeditated, and I defended myself, vigorously, yes, but I doubt anyone else would have just stood there when faced with Deadpool wielding two swords.

You speak of consequences. That's all well and good, sure, to have consequences in place, but what if they cannot be enforced? For example: as I was not the cause of what happened, I will not be accepting any consequence that may be handed down. Try to confine me and I will break free. Threaten to hurt the people I care about and I will defend them. Take away my food and I will take it back.

I'm a murderer, yes. A psychopath, maybe, depending on the definition. But I've behaved well so far. I haven't hurt anyone who didn't threaten me first. Try to punish me and see what you unleash.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]agentthirteen
2017-06-24 07:11 pm UTC (link)
Anyone who witnessed the attack against you would also back your story, Kylo. You do not need to view this personally, you are not on trial. You acted in self defense. Nobody has spoken of trying to confine you, threatening your family, or taking your food.

It is good that you are able to defend yourself against such possible threats. Not everyone here is. That is the concern. If Deadpool had attacked anyone else, would he be held responsible for assault or murder? As it is, he has faced no consequences for provoking you.

Everything that followed your fight is not your fault, and I am not looking to punish anyone for what happened that night. What I am looking for are answers to how we deal with such matters in the future.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]jedikiller, 2017-06-24 07:21 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]agentthirteen, 2017-06-24 07:49 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jedikiller, 2017-06-24 07:51 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]agentthirteen, 2017-06-24 07:59 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jedikiller, 2017-06-24 08:03 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]agentthirteen, 2017-06-24 08:06 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jedikiller, 2017-06-24 08:10 pm UTC
Private - [info]aintalady, 2017-06-24 10:21 pm UTC
Private - [info]agentthirteen, 2017-06-25 05:22 am UTC
Re: Private - [info]aintalady, 2017-06-25 03:50 pm UTC

[info]harvelle
2017-06-24 10:47 pm UTC (link)
I don't have a dog in this fight because I just got here and I'm pretty sure this is all hell, but....

You know, two people getting into a fight which results in a fire and people getting killed and hurt and property damage usually means both of those people are at fault, no matter who started it. Unless you're in middle school. That's pretty much the only place "he started it and I finished it" works as any kind of defense.

Just saying.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]jedikiller, 2017-06-24 10:54 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]harvelle, 2017-06-24 10:55 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jedikiller, 2017-06-24 10:56 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]harvelle, 2017-06-24 10:58 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]strawfeminist, 2017-06-24 11:35 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]harvelle, 2017-06-24 11:36 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]strawfeminist, 2017-06-24 11:49 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]harvelle, 2017-06-24 11:51 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mutant, 2017-06-25 03:54 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]harvelle, 2017-06-25 04:10 am UTC

[info]shootfirst
2017-06-24 06:26 pm UTC (link)
I'm going to have to echo some of what my son has said here - some of it. In fairness, he was attacked unprovoked and without premeditation. I can say both of those things with certainty. I can also say, with certainty, as his father, that if you try to punish him for something he feels he hasn't done, or doesn't deserve to be punished for, there will be hell to pay for it.

Furthermore, it's been recently brought to our attention that the locals here may actually be locals of whatever hellscape we're residing in at the moment and not actually human. How are we to know that they weren't the ones who caused the additional damage to the grounds and equipment? Because at this point, that's exactly what it looks like happened from where I'm standing and it's kind of my job to keep an eye on these things.

I hate to be one of those who say "boys will be boys" but ultimately the only people who Deadpool and Kylo hurt were each other the rest of the damage appears to have been done by the demons or whatever they were. Who do you propose punishes them? And how?

Now, I've already said I'll keep an eye on my kid and keep him in line and I'll continue to do that. Let me deal with him. You can deal with the madman in the red spandex however you see fit since he was the instigator. But where I come from, self-defense isn't a punishable offense and I would hope that our galaxies aren't that different.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]strawfeminist
2017-06-24 06:41 pm UTC (link)
Boys will be boys is just a bullshit line used to excuse and normalize toxic masculinity and male aggression. You kind of should hate even thinking it.

As someone who was on the Midway, it wasn't the locals doing the damage. Primary or secondary.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]shootfirst, 2017-06-24 06:46 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]strawfeminist, 2017-06-24 07:06 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]shootfirst, 2017-06-24 07:30 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]strawfeminist, 2017-06-24 08:26 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]shootfirst, 2017-06-24 08:36 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]strawfeminist, 2017-06-24 09:01 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]shootfirst, 2017-06-24 09:10 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]strawfeminist, 2017-06-24 09:32 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]shootfirst, 2017-06-24 09:58 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]hellfire, 2017-06-24 07:17 pm UTC
Emma - [info]starsandgarters, 2017-06-24 07:37 pm UTC
Emma // Hank - [info]hellfire, 2017-06-24 07:42 pm UTC
Emma // Hank - [info]starsandgarters, 2017-06-24 07:43 pm UTC
Emma // Hank - [info]hellfire, 2017-06-24 07:44 pm UTC
Emma // Hank - [info]starsandgarters, 2017-06-24 07:46 pm UTC
Emma // Hank - [info]hellfire, 2017-06-24 07:48 pm UTC
Emma // Hank - [info]starsandgarters, 2017-06-24 09:36 pm UTC
Emma // Hank - [info]hellfire, 2017-06-25 03:40 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]strawfeminist, 2017-06-24 07:39 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]hellfire, 2017-06-24 07:43 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]strawfeminist, 2017-06-24 09:03 pm UTC

[info]starsandgarters
2017-06-24 07:37 pm UTC (link)
It's an interesting quandary, especially with free will effectively altered, but I think it would definitely serve us, as a group to discuss our obligations to one another through and outside of these experiments for so long as we're forced to participate.

Perhaps if were to come up with something recuperative rather than punitive. Fines of spare clothing to help new arrivals have something less ridiculous or tasks that benefit the group. That way regardless of motivation, bad acts can yield positive growth.

But I think to some point, we do need to learn to excuse some chaos.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]rocinante
2017-06-24 07:43 pm UTC (link)
I like this idea, that those who act against the interests of the group have to then contribute more than they usually do to the group, to new arrivals. I just have issues with how it would be enforced. As we can see above, one of the alleged offenders from the riot seems reluctant to accept responsibility for what happened, for all that I did see him helping with clean up. How do we force someone to hand over extra clothing or do extra work if they don't agree that they should have to?

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]starsandgarters, 2017-06-24 08:01 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]rocinante, 2017-06-24 08:09 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]starsandgarters, 2017-06-24 09:35 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]rocinante, 2017-06-24 09:45 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]starsandgarters, 2017-06-24 10:03 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]rocinante, 2017-06-24 10:12 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]starsandgarters, 2017-06-24 11:02 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]rocinante, 2017-06-24 11:34 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]agentthirteen, 2017-06-25 05:39 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]starsandgarters, 2017-06-25 06:58 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]shootfirst, 2017-06-24 10:04 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]rocinante, 2017-06-24 10:13 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]shootfirst, 2017-06-24 10:29 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]rocinante, 2017-06-24 10:42 pm UTC

[info]insanejournal
2017-06-24 08:23 pm UTC (link)
so I like your enthusiasm but how about INSTEAD we channel that into a rousing game of twister?

(Reply to this)


[info]familybadass
2017-06-24 10:15 pm UTC (link)
I'm pretty new here, so excuse me for jumping in, but I just have a few questions.

Are the scientists really going to let something like this start? And how do you suggest we enforce any decisions that might be made by whoever we decide to put in charge?

Additionally, you speak of all of us trusting people to uphold order. I know exactly one person here who just happens to be a different version to someone I know back home, so I only loosely trust him until I know him better. There are others here who are just as new as I am, and who may have concerns about trusting strangers.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]thewittgenstein
2017-06-24 11:09 pm UTC (link)

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]familybadass, 2017-06-24 11:11 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]thewittgenstein, 2017-06-24 11:12 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]familybadass, 2017-06-24 11:13 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]thewittgenstein, 2017-06-24 11:19 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]familybadass, 2017-06-24 11:20 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]thewittgenstein, 2017-06-24 11:39 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]familybadass, 2017-06-24 11:44 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]thewittgenstein, 2017-06-25 12:13 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]familybadass, 2017-06-25 12:14 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]thewittgenstein, 2017-06-25 07:44 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]tonystark, 2017-06-25 05:05 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]thewittgenstein, 2017-06-25 05:29 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]tonystark, 2017-06-25 05:48 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]thewittgenstein, 2017-06-25 06:25 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]tonystark, 2017-06-25 06:28 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]thewittgenstein, 2017-06-25 06:53 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]tonystark, 2017-06-25 07:37 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]thewittgenstein, 2017-06-25 07:49 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]tonystark, 2017-06-25 07:50 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]agentthirteen, 2017-06-25 07:57 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]tonystark, 2017-06-26 02:29 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]thewittgenstein, 2017-06-25 08:05 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]tonystark, 2017-06-25 08:12 am UTC

[info]agentthirteen
2017-06-25 05:51 am UTC (link)
The scientists are testing our reactions to the environments they put us in to better understand humanity. They probably expect some system of order to develop. If they wanted to test goldfish swimming around in a bowl that they occasionally throw rocks at, that's what they would have done.

Proving trust is a difficult matter, I don't expect anyone to feel comfortable with any individual who steps forward to take what may seem like a position of power over others. Even with the backing of those who know them. From your perspective, how would you like somebody to demonstrate merit and trustworthiness? We all know speeches can just be empty words to lure people in. I know a lot of people here, so I think hearing your perspective as somebody who doesn't is important. Those in your situation may prove best in having no bias. I want everyone to feel like they have a right to be protected as far as we are capable.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]familybadass, 2017-06-25 03:46 pm UTC

[info]mutantmessiah
2017-06-24 10:32 pm UTC (link)
Having a majority for this sounds great, but what happens if the majority makes a bad decision?

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]got_gumbo
2017-06-24 11:01 pm UTC (link)
that's called democracy, chere

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]mutantmessiah, 2017-06-24 11:03 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]got_gumbo, 2017-06-24 11:05 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mutantmessiah, 2017-06-24 11:06 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]got_gumbo, 2017-06-24 11:09 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mutantmessiah, 2017-06-24 11:10 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]got_gumbo, 2017-06-24 11:11 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mutantmessiah, 2017-06-24 11:14 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]got_gumbo, 2017-06-24 11:16 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mutantmessiah, 2017-06-24 11:17 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]got_gumbo, 2017-06-24 11:19 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mutantmessiah, 2017-06-24 11:20 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]got_gumbo, 2017-06-24 11:22 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mutantmessiah, 2017-06-24 11:23 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]got_gumbo, 2017-06-24 11:26 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mutantmessiah, 2017-06-24 11:27 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]got_gumbo, 2017-06-24 11:34 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mutantmessiah, 2017-06-24 11:36 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]got_gumbo, 2017-06-24 11:41 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mutantmessiah, 2017-06-24 11:44 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]got_gumbo, 2017-06-24 11:48 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mutantmessiah, 2017-06-24 11:50 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]got_gumbo, 2017-06-24 11:50 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mutantmessiah, 2017-06-24 11:53 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]got_gumbo, 2017-06-24 11:57 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mutantmessiah, 2017-06-24 11:59 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]got_gumbo, 2017-06-25 12:02 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]mutantmessiah, 2017-06-25 12:10 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]got_gumbo, 2017-06-25 12:15 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]mutantmessiah, 2017-06-25 12:15 am UTC

[info]homosuperior
2017-06-24 11:41 pm UTC (link)
Then it comes down to whether power or mere numbers win out.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]mutantmessiah, 2017-06-24 11:45 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]homosuperior, 2017-06-25 12:22 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]mutantmessiah, 2017-06-25 12:23 am UTC

[info]agentthirteen
2017-06-25 06:07 am UTC (link)
We will hope that everyone takes the opportunity to express their opinion fully, all concerns will be taken into account. Hopefully we can avoid anything too strict of a system that allows anyone to abuse it or exert unjust power over others. But we cannot hope to enforce any sort of order without support, nor should we.

If the majority decides that lawlessness and personal revenge is preferred to group rights and protection, then I hope those of us that favor doing right by the group will be able to pull together and defend our and each other's rights against them. It is a far more brutal solution, and not ideal.

In the case that we do come to an agreement on creating laws, a system for fairly trying those accused, appropriate consequences, and somebody to enforce them, it should still be at the scrutiny of the group as a whole. If the person we choose turns out to make bad decisions, then we absolutely should be able to remove and replace them.

If you believe it is wrong, then it is essential you speak up. It is the only way bad decisions can be avoided.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]mutantmessiah, 2017-06-25 03:49 pm UTC

[info]monmothma
2017-06-25 02:40 am UTC (link)
This is well said and I fully agree with this. We need a system of rules to hold us accountable. Even perhaps a voted council to represent our needs? To ensure people can air the grievances and be heard without being judged but also to allow a level of not comfort but knowledge that there are people that we trust to ensure that rules are followed and people do what they are supposed to do?

Yes, in this situation we don't know exactly what happened. Deadpool attacked Mr Ren unprovoked and that is something that isn't acceptable but given the situation is that something that he was asked to do by the scientists? It is hard to know. I would hope not, but at the same time I would also hope that he didn't do it just for fun.

I think we should be held accountable for our actions. What the scientists have us doing is inhumane as you say but we need to work together and make the best of the situation. We need to support one another and not cause dissent within our ranks. Perhaps by doing so we shall end this... Situation, sooner rather than later.

Of course, I say this having only recently arrived and not yet knowing the full extent but based on what I've observed so far.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]agentthirteen
2017-06-25 06:19 am UTC (link)
A council of elected representatives appears to be the more popular and fair way to go about this. We are a small group of people under very unique circumstances, and being able to freely express our concerns is necessary to keep this from becoming tyrannical. The goal is to serve and protect, not to intimidate and control. We must do everything possible to make that clear.

The situation between Mr. Ren and Deadpool, and all the violence and destruction after, is unfair to retroactively seek to punish, but it does serve as a good example of the complications we face. Yes, some of the acts people will commit will be arguably under duress or direct order. Some leeway has to be afforded to account for that. But we need to set up boundaries and expectations so that everyone is on the same page.

For one, murder is almost universally agreed to be a line that should not be crossed. It is one that the scientists no doubt will push us toward at some point. We need to be prepared for that.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]monmothma, 2017-06-26 10:36 am UTC
Cap13
[info]hydra
2017-06-25 03:50 am UTC (link)
If these acts of violence are connected to tasks - the goals that they've been assigned - can we still hold them accountable? I'm just asking because seeing as Rogue was instructed to physically hurt someone, it wouldn't surprise me if there were a few other dangerous tricks up the scientists' sleeves.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Cap13
[info]agentthirteen
2017-06-25 06:30 am UTC (link)
There are no doubts that the scientists are testing how we respond to their challenges, exactly what they are capable of making us do given the right balance of rewards and punishments. They are learning our patterns and training a lot of the people here too easily to literally jump through hoops and obey commands. We do not need following commands to hurt others to become ingrained, expected, allowed.

Holding people accountable for these actions, assigned or not, hopefully will keep them critical and aware that because they told me to is not a defense.

It's beginning to feel like the Milgram experiment, and we unfortunately know too well that people will often follow the commands of perceived authority to harm others when they believe they will not be held accountable for that harm. Even when they're the ones pulling the trigger.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

Cap13 - [info]hydra, 2017-06-25 07:23 am UTC
Cap13 - [info]agentthirteen, 2017-06-25 08:16 am UTC
Cap13 - [info]hydra, 2017-06-25 02:23 pm UTC

[info]tonystark
2017-06-25 05:08 am UTC (link)
If we're dealing with Deadpool, I call not it.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]agentthirteen
2017-06-25 06:31 am UTC (link)
Do you call it for any responsibility?

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]tonystark, 2017-06-25 06:46 am UTC
Pretty Lady With A Brain
[info]got_gumbo
2017-06-25 08:41 pm UTC (link)
you ain't wrong

if i can help, lemme know

(Reply to this)


[info]bailorgana
2017-06-25 09:25 pm UTC (link)
Thank you for this, Ms. Carter. It's very useful. I believe that establishing some form of governance is imperative as well.

(Reply to this)



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