InsaneJournal

Tweak says, "Frank-N-Furter we meet at last"

h. combeferre (eclairage) wrote in thedoorway,
@ 2013-06-21 13:54:00

Entry tags:

!network post, clara oswald, combeferre, dorian gray, enjolras, finnick odair, lady door, lisbeth salander, steve rogers / captain america (616), tony stark / iron man (616)

I understand that I don't have the touchstones (in this world) to recognise or respond to potential threats in the way that some of the residents of this tower -- particularly if these residents have 'super powers' and are accustomed to battling overblown rhetoric and violent imagery with any regularity -- but I do know a terrorist when I see one. I do understand what it means to be a connoisseur of fear and to have such self-aggrandised delusions regarding oneself that they overtake all of the airwaves ...

But -- hear me out, here.

There is a point. As much as I rail against being called a lamb, there is a purpose to making this society think on its sins. I would hazard to say that this person will get there eventually. I hope it's sooner rather than later.

Still and yet. We've every reason to listen.

Perhaps.

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	doriangray 2013-06-21 06:05 pm UTC (link)
	There is never any point to thinking on your sins. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	eclairage 2013-06-21 06:06 pm UTC (link)
	Why isn't there any point? (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	doriangray 2013-06-21 06:07 pm UTC (link)
	Because something that's done can't be undone and guilt doesn't motivate. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

eclairage
2013-06-21 06:12 pm UTC (link)

Perhaps if I had a magic paintbrush which distilled me at my most youthful and pleasant, I too would think that guilt did not motivate.

Since I don't - and since I would not, even if it were offered to me - let me say this. Guilt is one of the great conductors of our society, though I have often lamented that it ought to be a search for knowledge and enlightenment. Guilt drives forward motion.

Pick up a newspaper. You will see that I am right.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	doriangray 2013-06-21 06:13 pm UTC (link)
	That's not guilt. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	eclairage 2013-06-21 06:15 pm UTC (link)
	Enlighten me. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	doriangray 2013-06-21 06:19 pm UTC (link)
	Consequence can motivate. What stops us from doing something wrong, most of the time, is not the knowing, but whether or not we can get away with it. People must pay for what they'd done. Thinking back on your sins only helps you recognise what you've gotten away with, Darling. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	eclairage 2013-06-21 06:22 pm UTC (link)
	Consequence is a word for ~~children~~ people who have no personal or moral standard of conduct. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	doriangray 2013-06-21 06:23 pm UTC (link)
	People -- as a collective -- don't. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	eclairage 2013-06-21 06:24 pm UTC (link)
	I disagree. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	doriangray 2013-06-21 06:25 pm UTC (link)
	That's because you're a martyr. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	eclairage 2013-06-21 06:29 pm UTC (link)
	You have me confused with ~~Enjol~~ others who read me as a martyr. I did not want to die. I suppose you can be read as a martyr to selflessness and age ... the youth in exile. It is fascinating, reading you rail against the inherent guilt complex that morality instills in people from a young age when you cut yours out with a paintbrush. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	doriangray 2013-06-21 06:31 pm UTC (link)
	I didn't read everything that you said just there. I stopped at "didn't want to die." ... You wouldn't have done what you did if you didn't believe in the goodness of people, I get it. I do. The fact that these people left you to die. Well. I think that's where my point gets proven, actually. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

eclairage
2013-06-21 06:38 pm UTC (link)

I would like you to understand that I see how you are trying to bait me by bringing up the betrayal -- ~~I blame~~ when we thought that the people would rise with us. I understand that perhaps you think this is useful to you in some fashion.

Their guilt did eventually motivate them to rebel, to better their conditions and to seek freedom. And they seek it still.

To assume that guilt or consequence brings about any final stage of enlightenment is banal. We must constantly move (forward, I think) and whether we choose guilt or consequence, whether we agree or disagree on which of it is the greatest motivator ... it's forward motion that we must seek.

Which is why (to come back to the point that you completely missed) I think we ought to at least be open to hearing what this person has to say.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

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doriangray, 2013-06-21 06:40 pm UTC

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eclairage, 2013-06-21 06:41 pm UTC

	tonystark 2013-06-21 06:18 pm UTC (link)
	Doesn't it? (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	doriangray 2013-06-21 06:22 pm UTC (link)
	... That's different. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	tonystark 2013-06-21 06:24 pm UTC (link)
	I mean, you could say that it was motivated by a desire for redemption, but there would be no such desire without guilt. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	doriangray 2013-06-21 06:28 pm UTC (link)
	Tony. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	tonystark 2013-06-21 06:32 pm UTC (link)
	~~What-- oh~~ I know guilt has been a motivator for me. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	doriangray 2013-06-21 06:34 pm UTC (link)
	You're also a martyr. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	tonystark 2013-06-21 06:36 pm UTC (link)
	I'm not dead yet. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	doriangray 2013-06-21 06:38 pm UTC (link)
	Yes, but that doesn't have anything to do with it. The rest of the world, the majority, they aren't like you. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	tonystark 2013-06-21 06:44 pm UTC (link)
	I don't know. I wouldn't say that guilt is the greatest motivator. Or the only motivator. But I think we're all motivated by it, at times. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	doriangray 2013-06-21 07:14 pm UTC (link)
	It's not good enough on it's own, otherwise there would be no Hell. It's consequence that frightens, not guilt. We all learn to live with ourselves, don't we? (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

tonystark
2013-06-21 07:31 pm UTC (link)

I'm not sure that any single motivation is good enough on its own. Consequences frighten us, but I think guilt is a type of consequence, sometimes a product of consequence, and not a fear of consequence. I've felt guilty about things that I knew I would get away with. Knew that I had gotten away with. Knew would never come back to me. I've been haunted by things I've done for reasons that had nothing to do with a fear of what might come to pass, because the consequences were there already, and I knew the score. I've felt guilt over things that didn't have any consequences, or the consequences of which were so distant and so minimal that they were vastly overshadowed by the guilt I felt.

The trouble is, the things we feel guilty about aren't always the things we should feel guilty about. And we all respond to guilt in different ways. The best way to absolve guilt isn't always clear, and a lot of the most common and most obvious coping mechanisms for guilt are ultimately damaging. Denial, anger, avoidance, depression, all different ways to cope with guilt. So it can be a motivator. But it can also be a paralytic.

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doriangray, 2013-06-21 07:48 pm UTC

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tonystark, 2013-06-21 11:03 pm UTC

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doriangray, 2013-06-21 11:12 pm UTC

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tonystark, 2013-06-21 11:34 pm UTC

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doriangray, 2013-06-22 05:10 am UTC

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