InsaneJournal

Tweak says, "A blancmange impersonator..."

h. combeferre (eclairage) wrote in thedoorway,
@ 2013-06-21 13:54:00

Entry tags:

!network post, clara oswald, combeferre, dorian gray, enjolras, finnick odair, lady door, lisbeth salander, steve rogers / captain america (616), tony stark / iron man (616)

I understand that I don't have the touchstones (in this world) to recognise or respond to potential threats in the way that some of the residents of this tower -- particularly if these residents have 'super powers' and are accustomed to battling overblown rhetoric and violent imagery with any regularity -- but I do know a terrorist when I see one. I do understand what it means to be a connoisseur of fear and to have such self-aggrandised delusions regarding oneself that they overtake all of the airwaves ...

But -- hear me out, here.

There is a point. As much as I rail against being called a lamb, there is a purpose to making this society think on its sins. I would hazard to say that this person will get there eventually. I hope it's sooner rather than later.

Still and yet. We've every reason to listen.

Perhaps.

(Read comments) - (Post a new comment)

	tonystark 2013-06-21 06:32 pm UTC (link)
	~~What-- oh~~ I know guilt has been a motivator for me. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	doriangray 2013-06-21 06:34 pm UTC (link)
	You're also a martyr. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	tonystark 2013-06-21 06:36 pm UTC (link)
	I'm not dead yet. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	doriangray 2013-06-21 06:38 pm UTC (link)
	Yes, but that doesn't have anything to do with it. The rest of the world, the majority, they aren't like you. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	tonystark 2013-06-21 06:44 pm UTC (link)
	I don't know. I wouldn't say that guilt is the greatest motivator. Or the only motivator. But I think we're all motivated by it, at times. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	doriangray 2013-06-21 07:14 pm UTC (link)
	It's not good enough on it's own, otherwise there would be no Hell. It's consequence that frightens, not guilt. We all learn to live with ourselves, don't we? (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

tonystark
2013-06-21 07:31 pm UTC (link)

I'm not sure that any single motivation is good enough on its own. Consequences frighten us, but I think guilt is a type of consequence, sometimes a product of consequence, and not a fear of consequence. I've felt guilty about things that I knew I would get away with. Knew that I had gotten away with. Knew would never come back to me. I've been haunted by things I've done for reasons that had nothing to do with a fear of what might come to pass, because the consequences were there already, and I knew the score. I've felt guilt over things that didn't have any consequences, or the consequences of which were so distant and so minimal that they were vastly overshadowed by the guilt I felt.

The trouble is, the things we feel guilty about aren't always the things we should feel guilty about. And we all respond to guilt in different ways. The best way to absolve guilt isn't always clear, and a lot of the most common and most obvious coping mechanisms for guilt are ultimately damaging. Denial, anger, avoidance, depression, all different ways to cope with guilt. So it can be a motivator. But it can also be a paralytic.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

doriangray
2013-06-21 07:48 pm UTC (link)

But then it's all just relative, isn't it? There are plenty of things that people feel guilty about, as you said, that they shouldn't -- there are plenty more who don't feel any guilt whatsoever about the things that they do and you know that too -- because society tells them that they don't have to - look at Steubenville.

To look at your sins you have to recognise that they are sins and if you don't, if you can't, then there is no guilt. And if you do feel guilty -- well. No I still don't believe it. I don't think guilt motivates or I'd never move.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

tonystark
2013-06-21 11:03 pm UTC (link)

Of course it's relative. And subject to the prejudices and beliefs of the individual in question, particularly since our sense of right and wrong -- on which guilt relies -- is often defined, at least in part, by the dominant social morality. With some notable exceptions, our internal sense of justice is often founded less on immutable principles, and more on the moral flavor of the week. So as a basis for determining whether your actions are just, guilt is quite imperfect. But that doesn't mean it can't also motivate.

In The Tell-Tale Heart, what motivated the protagonist to confess? What motivated Ebenezer Scrooge to change his ways? What motivated Christian Bale's character in The Machinist? Teddy Daniels in Shutter Island? John Proctor in The Crucible? Severus Snape in the Harry Potter books? Amir in The Kite Runner? What of the entire Redemption Quest trope? You can argue in each case that it's something other than guilt, but I don't think you can really say, in any case, that guilt isn't a factor. It doesn't always motivate us to do good things. But it does motivate us.

And that's can, you know. Not that it always does. I wouldn't even say that guilt is necessary to do good, or to prevent someone from doing bad. Perhaps it's not even one of the better motivations. But it is one possible motivation. You, I'm sure, have found others.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	doriangray 2013-06-21 11:12 pm UTC (link)
	What if this message isn't about guilt? (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	tonystark 2013-06-21 11:34 pm UTC (link)
	Honestly, I don't think it's about guilt at all. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	doriangray 2013-06-22 05:10 am UTC (link)
	What do you think they're about? (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	tonystark 2013-06-22 05:13 am UTC (link)
	I think it's about power. And I think they want us to think it's about penance. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	doriangray 2013-06-22 05:58 am UTC (link)
	The best way to oppress people is to make them think they're wrong, Darling. The best way to control them. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	tonystark 2013-06-22 06:17 am UTC (link)
	I feel like I slept through a philosophy class about this. I think we were reading Nietzsche's Genealogy of Morals and talking about the slave morality. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	doriangray 2013-06-22 06:18 am UTC (link)
	Well, that's only part of it -- isn't it? (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

(no subject) -

tonystark, 2013-06-22 06:23 am UTC

(no subject) -

doriangray, 2013-06-22 12:47 pm UTC

(no subject) -

tonystark, 2013-06-22 04:52 pm UTC

	Tony. supposedtobe 2013-06-21 11:34 pm UTC (link)
	Tony. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	Steve. tonystark 2013-06-21 11:36 pm UTC (link)
	Oh, don't use your sad face on me. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	Tony. supposedtobe 2013-06-21 11:37 pm UTC (link)
	I hate when you talk about yourself like that. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	Steve. tonystark 2013-06-21 11:45 pm UTC (link)
	I know. ~~The last time we talked about it--~~ But it doesn't change anything. If you're in our line of work and you don't have a list of regrets longer than the Game of Thrones audiobooks, you haven't been at it for very long. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	Tony. supposedtobe 2013-06-22 12:33 am UTC (link)
	Your list of triumphs is longer still. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	Steve. tonystark 2013-06-22 12:47 am UTC (link)
	They always come at a cost, though, don't they? (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	Tony. supposedtobe 2013-06-22 12:52 am UTC (link)
	So do mine. Everything has a cost. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	Steve. tonystark 2013-06-22 01:17 am UTC (link)
	You sleep better than I do. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	Tony. supposedtobe 2013-06-22 01:19 am UTC (link)
	Don't be so sure. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

Steve. -

tonystark, 2013-06-22 01:21 am UTC

Tony. -

supposedtobe, 2013-06-22 01:23 am UTC

Steve. -

tonystark, 2013-06-22 01:32 am UTC

Tony. -

supposedtobe, 2013-06-22 01:36 am UTC

Steve. -

tonystark, 2013-06-22 01:42 am UTC

Tony. -

supposedtobe, 2013-06-22 01:44 am UTC

Steve. -

tonystark, 2013-06-22 01:51 am UTC

Tony. -

supposedtobe, 2013-06-22 01:57 am UTC

Steve. -

tonystark, 2013-06-22 02:08 am UTC

Tony. -

supposedtobe, 2013-06-22 02:31 am UTC

Steve. -

tonystark, 2013-06-22 02:42 am UTC

(Read comments) -