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Tweak says, "Your face is gone!"

drsevarius (drsevarius) wrote in scans_daily,
@ 2009-09-04 14:44:00

Entry tags:

char: batgirl/oracle/barbara gordon, char: batman/bruce wayne, char: joker, char: robin/nightwing/dick grayson, char: starfire/koriand'r, creator: joe bennett, creator: marc andreyko

Dick and Babs: Awkward!

This is from Nightwing Annual #2 by Marc Andreyko and Joe Bennett

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lyraeinne
2009-09-04 09:50 pm UTC (link)

You know, I think what bothers me most about this story is the assumption that it's actually necessary to make Dick's relationship with Kory such an issue between Dick and Babs in the first place. As if it somehow needs to be measured against (and deemed superior to) every other relationship he's ever had in order to make sense. As if Dick and Babs don't have years of friendship and love and comradeship of their own on which to build a relationship without the need for such a cheap retcon to validate it.

And those last two pages definitely have a spot somewhere in my top five things I wish I could erase from canon for all time. There's no way in which it can make sense for Dick to have such a completely callous disregard for the consequences of his actions or the feelings of either woman he's supposed to love in this instance. Not when he's been shown so many times to be someone who values his relationships with a pretty singular intensity. There's no version of Dick I've ever seen in canon for which that kind of action would make sense.

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	neuhallidae 2009-09-04 09:51 pm UTC (link)
	All of your comment, motto. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	icon_uk 2009-09-04 10:00 pm UTC (link)
	Complete motto! (Reply to this) (Parent)

	runespoor7 2009-09-04 10:05 pm UTC (link)
	Yes, yes, yes. It's especially mind-boggling considering that except for that, they act in character. The unposted scenes of Babs training Dick back to his usual were especially good if I remember well. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	lyraeinne 2009-09-04 10:29 pm UTC (link)
	Yes, I know! That was awesome! The contrast between the fantastic and adorable and the horrifyingly out of character is so extreme here that it's almost impossible to reconcile, for me. I think I'd almost feel better if the whole story was bad enough that I could just write it off completely. (Reply to this) (Parent)

freddylloyd
2009-09-04 10:36 pm UTC (link)

I think what bothers me most about this story is the assumption that it's actually necessary to make Dick's relationship with Kory such an issue between Dick and Babs in the first place.

I have no problem believing that Barbara has some issues over Dick's relationship with Kory, for multiple reasons:
1) Dick and Babs did flirt from the late 1960s through the 1970s, and then he went off with Kory.
2) Kory is an alien supermodel—a tough act for anyone to follow.
3) Kory and Babs have come to represent opposite things in the DC Universe. Kory can fly through space; Babs is in a wheelchair. Kory is a wide-eyed newcomer to this planet; Babs is a master of all information on this planet. Kory is part of Dick's Titans family; Babs is still linked to Dick's bat-family. At the very least, one could reasonably ask, What the heck does Grayson want?

I agree completely on the last 1.6 pages, though.

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	runespoor7 2009-09-04 10:40 pm UTC (link)
	Red-heads. Heroes want them. Or so I heard. (Reply to this) (Parent)

icon_uk
2009-09-04 11:33 pm UTC (link)

Dick and Babs did flirt from the late 1960s through the 1970s, and then he went off with Kory.

Barely, the age difference always meant it was in nothing more than fun, with Dick having a crush on her, and her playing along up to a point because he was a nice kid, but nothing was ever going to come of it, and anyway he was dating Lori, and she was dating... assorted people.

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	mysteryfan 2009-09-05 12:59 am UTC (link)
	Agreed! (Reply to this) (Parent)

freddylloyd
2009-09-05 02:19 am UTC (link)

There was the Batman Family story this annual alludes back to, with Dick speaking seriously about his interest in Barbara. I agree that if that and the banter was all that had happened between Dick and Barbara, then really nothing happened. But at the time that this annual takes place, something definitely had happened: Dick and Babs had a serious, sexual, cohabiting relationship. And for someone as smart and information-hungry as Barbara, that would make her consider their earlier relationship in new ways.

Given Dick and Babs' forty years of banter and several years of serious relationship, with Dick and Kory's intense and ground-breaking sexual relationship and engagement in between (and yet not completely broken off), I think it made perfect sense for a Nightwing Annual to explore what Dick and Barbara really mean to each other.

It's just too bad that issue ended in an own goal.

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icon_uk
2009-09-05 11:52 am UTC (link)

I think it made perfect sense for a Nightwing Annual to explore what Dick and Barbara really mean to each other.

This is true, but it doesn't really impact on my original comment though, which was referring to the original stories in their original context. There was nothing beyond cute flirting up until Chuck Dixon came along and introduced the "DICK AND BABS HAVE ALWAYS LOVED EACH OTHER" retcon.

The original version of Dick's chat is almost toe curlingly embarrassing, and Babs either IS asleep or continues to pretend so as not to hurt the kids feelings. She has no interest in pursuing the relationship, it IS just a crush he has on her from her POV.

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sistermagpie
2009-09-05 02:55 pm UTC (link)

Yes. And while I can totally believe that later on, when Dick was an adult, she could reconsider and develop and interest, that shouldn't automatically mean she's insecure around the woman he dated in the meantime.

As to the question of what Dick wants, they are very different in some ways, but it doesn't seem all that strange to me. Babs, from Dick's pov when they met, was a gorgeous, funny, strong, smart woman. It's not like next to Kory she becomes a frump. Why can't they both just rediscover each other later when Dick's old enough for them to interact in a different way?

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	icon_uk 2009-09-05 04:57 pm UTC (link)
	Why can't they both just rediscover each other later when Dick's old enough for them to interact in a different way? Are you talking about Dick and Babs, or Kory and Babs? :) Either works really. Actually I'd love to see a story where Kory and Babs actually meet each other properly, ohhh the stories they could tell about Dick. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	mysteryfan 2009-09-05 07:35 pm UTC (link)
	That would only be incredibly awesome... (Reply to this) (Parent)

lyraeinne
2009-09-05 12:18 am UTC (link)

It's not the existence of some issues between Babs and Kory that bugs me, just the idea that it needs to be dealt with in this way; ie one needing to invalidate the other for either to be viable for Dick in the present. And admittedly, that's something that seems to pop up quite in lot in stories dealing with one or the other, rather than a unique function of this story. It just seems kind of ridiculous to me, as if Dick can't possibly have had more than one significant relationship that meant something to him, regardless of who he happens to be invested in in the present.

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	ashtoreth 2009-09-05 02:04 am UTC (link)
	It doesn't seem like Dick's the one with the problem. Barbara is. (Reply to this) (Parent)

freddylloyd
2009-09-05 02:32 am UTC (link)

It's not the existence of some issues between Babs and Kory that bugs me, just the idea that it needs to be dealt with in this way; ie one needing to invalidate the other for either to be viable for Dick in the present.

Okay, I've caught up now. I guess I'd say that some real humans feel exactly as you describe: insecure about a current relationship because of a lover's past one.

In Dick's case, it didn't help the case for his stability that he'd been back in Kory's bed shortly before these events, after the Outsiders collapse.

According to Marv Wolfman's characterization, which I prefer, Dick's a serial monogamist. He is looking for one relationship, which will relegate others to the past, if not invalidate them. Yet part of what Dick Grayson represents in the DC Universe is potential coming to fruition. The writers therefore can't put him in that one permanent relationship because that would be actual fruition. Thus, Dick's still up in the air among women, still the only original Teen Titan never to marry or have children, and still having doubts about whether he can handle his job.

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lyraeinne
2009-09-05 02:46 pm UTC (link)

Dick's a serial monogamist. He is looking for one relationship, which will relegate others to the past, if not invalidate them.

I tend to read Dick a little differently I think, at least in the sense that I don't really see him being capable of retroactively labeling a relationship that had any kind of significance to him completely invalid. Oh, I do think that when he's in a relationship he's completely committed beyond question, hence why the concept of him cheating on Kory with Babs makes so little sense.

But given the fact that he does invest so much in other people, I also think disengaging on that level is more than a little difficult for him. Dick doesn't give up on people easily, and he works far too hard at maintaining positive relationships with everyone, even exes, for me to believe he's really after something to invalidate what came before. Something ultimately healthier and longer-lasting, yes, but erasing the past that got him there to begin with doesn't really strike me as his style.

But in this story, I don't even think it's Dick that's making that judgment; he's pretty clear that while he doesn't regret his past with Kory, at this point in time his devotion and love is focused completely on Babs. It's more the way the story itself is kind of constructed around the idea that Dick/Babs needs the retcon in the first place. He can't just love her now because he loves her now, he has to have always loved her forever and ever, even at the expense of whatever other relationships either one of them might have had before. To me it just doesn't feel very realistic, or true to the things that are actually good about Dick/Babs (in my opinion, of course).

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ashtoreth
2009-09-05 02:15 am UTC (link)

Interesting about the opposites.

Raised to be emotionally constipated, Dick poured out his heart to Barbara. She pretended to be asleep. She avoided him when he broke up with Batman, basically putting herself in the Batfriends rather than maintaining connections with the prodigal. Kory was sexually physically aggressive the moment Dick met her, and openly declared her love often. She was definitely on Dick's side; Batman didn't seem to like her, and all the Titans seemed to see Batman as a bad influence on Dick.

I'd fanwank the last page or so as Dick being dazzled by Tamaranian free-love culture, plus a recent villain mental attack that left him forgetfully stupid as to how Earthwomen would take that sex=affection idea.

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	runespoor7 2009-09-05 08:23 am UTC (link)
	Dick doesn't seem to have done anything to preserve his connection with Barbara after he left Gotham. It was just as much Dick's responsibility as Babs'. (Reply to this) (Parent)

sistermagpie
2009-09-05 03:05 pm UTC (link)

So much word. This makes no sense and I hate the way all the characters are acting. Why doesn't Kory tell him, btw, that it was Babs at the door? It makes her seem like a bitch interfering with their relationship, as if she's got to keep Dick all to herself, and that seems completely not what she's about.

Then Barbara and Dick get their more interesting relationship shoehorned into something else just, as you say, to suit this idea that if you don't establish that people always loved each other better than they love other people, it's not true love. Which is particularly stupid for Dick Grayson, a character whose most formative experience was losing one family/life and gaining another without ever having to give up the first to love the second.

Also I hate that kind of sweet, awkward Batfamily moment getting retconned into Dick making a play for Babs that Babs actually considered but was scared to act on. Just, no.

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runespoor7
2009-09-05 05:16 pm UTC (link)

Why doesn't Kory tell him, btw, that it was Babs at the door? It makes her seem like a bitch interfering with their relationship, as if she's got to keep Dick all to herself, and that seems completely not what she's about.

Well, Babs looks pretty close to tears at that point, and not in any hurry to see Dick when she sees Kory. Probably Kory thought Babs would be horribly embarrassed if Dick heard she'd been there.

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sistermagpie
2009-09-05 05:25 pm UTC (link)

That's definitely one reading of it, but the bottom line is I just can't really imagine myself doing what Kory does without being manipulative and isn't the point of Kory that she's supposed to be non-manipulative? Based on her own alleged nature, wouldn't it be more in character for her to believe it's better to be honest at least about Babs dropping by? Because Babs would have no way of knowing that Kory lied about it, so would have reason to take Dick's not ever mentioning it as his not wanting her there. Dick even implies as much when Babs tells him. She could easily have told Dick it was Babs without humiliating Babs in any way. Just say she dropped by but didn't stay--maybe since Dick had company.

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runespoor7
2009-09-05 05:40 pm UTC (link)

I agree it's not very good Kory characterization. It's like the writer had ideas about the characters' traits and how they could act on them - Dick's impulsive, Kory's nice - but stopped short of thinking the implications through.

She could easily have told Dick it was Babs without humiliating Babs in any way. Just say she dropped by but didn't stay--maybe since Dick had company.

Chances are Dick would hurry after Babs, and the ensuing scene would be awkward.

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