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claudie (flirting with modernism) ([info]lipsofpoison) wrote in [info]scans_daily,
@ 2009-07-03 17:38:00

Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Entry tags:char: robin/red hood/jason todd, char: robin/red robin/tim drake, creator: doug mahnke, creator: judd winick, creator: tony daniel

Batman #641 vs. Battle for the Cowl #2
Upon rereading Under the Hood, I noticed something that I loved from Jason at the time and something that I wish had stayed consistant on, to be honest.



Batman #641





Yes, Jason, I do think it's ridiculous when they do that.

Oh, speaking of...


BftC #2




(Post a new comment)


[info]islwyn
2009-07-03 05:08 pm UTC (link)
As much as I hated the near-fridging of Onyx, OH JASON. Him resurrected is like one of the very few characters that make me go "bweeee" and "ouch" while he's stabbing people and blowing up buildings as the Campy Crimeprince. It's a "bweeee" and an "ouch" of the batshit insane.

Theory time! Maybe Jason being written shittily was an editorial decision to discredit him, because the reasoning behind his vendetta and the place he was trying to make for himself in Gotham along with his methods were, you know, actually quite valid. I think it's a conspiracy. I have seen the secret handshakes.

And ahaha Tony Daniel, no. Seriously, stop that.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]lipsofpoison
2009-07-03 05:11 pm UTC (link)
I know what you mean. I bought vol.1 and 2 as my first ever things to buy that got me into it and while hooked, it didn't have make me go OUCH sometimes. It's a very Joker-style mania and I think that's deliberate.

I've been wondering about that. The first time Tim appears to be using a more Jason like tone, he gets bitch slapped a lot as well so you could be right about it being editorial. I think for Jason, this was a great move and one that was forgotten about. They could have played it off with escalation but it feels like they took a cheap way out (extra-traumatised psycho boy) instead of a meaningful (long term effects of killing on him and the city). That's my theory, anyway.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)


[info]islwyn
2009-07-03 05:23 pm UTC (link)
I first properly encountered Jason in the thing where I got my icon from (which is I was a little baffled that anyone could dislike him, much less pay to have him textually killed), but yeah, I've been giving a huge benefit of the doubt to Winick ever since Under the Hood and beyond. Love it or hate it; I thought it was excellent, and all the more reason to be bitter now that Winick remains the only writer at DC who genuinely likes the character. Or so it seems.

It's a complete mystery to me how anyone would think that Jason (hello, massive brain damage and psychological trauma of sodding dying!) needed any more angst to justify his bouts of crazy. A well-written redemption arc could even lampshade/handwave his behaviour in BftC! (Where is my Jason redemption arc, DC.)

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]lipsofpoison, 2009-07-03 05:25 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]islwyn, 2009-07-03 05:41 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]seirios, 2009-07-03 08:01 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]islwyn, 2009-07-04 07:16 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lipsofpoison, 2009-07-04 11:23 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]daggerpen, 2009-07-03 07:10 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]superfan1, 2009-07-04 03:49 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]autumn_lily, 2009-07-05 12:26 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]daggerpen, 2009-07-05 12:38 am UTC

[info]janegray
2009-07-03 05:20 pm UTC (link)
Actually, Tony Daniel did admit in an interview that he made Jason black-and-white EvilTM on purpose because he didn't like that many readers had agreed with Jason's shades-of-grey attitude and he wanted to discredit it.

http://comics.ign.com/articles/972/972153p1.html

IGN Comics: Anytime you work with an anti-hero character I think you always run the chance that some fans will embrace his or her willingness to go the extra mile and actually kill. When I was talking to Judd Winick about his initial run resurrecting Jason, he mentioned he was a bit surprised at fans' willingness to get behind Jason. By pushing him further towards the side of villainy than ever before, were you purposefully trying to make it clear that Jason is not a good guy and is in fact off his rocker?

Daniel: Yes. At this point he is beyond the point of no return in terms of ever being considered even remotely a hero. What I wanted to do here is put him in a place that he can't come back from. The things that he does here in Battle for the Cowl are things that can never really be forgiven. The only outcome would have to be imprisonment or something worse. But from this point on for Jason the gray area between good and bad has disappeared. It's crystal clear now that he is on the dark side.


Truly, nothing says "good writing" like purposefully derailing a character and making him Rape The Dog in a blatantly OOC manner to shove anvilicious morals down the readers' throat.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)


[info]lipsofpoison
2009-07-03 05:21 pm UTC (link)
Yes, I remember reading that and it made me facepalm like WHOA. I'm hoping it gets reconned as trauma or something.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]daggerpen, 2009-07-03 07:43 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lipsofpoison, 2009-07-03 07:50 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]daggerpen, 2009-07-03 07:53 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lipsofpoison, 2009-07-03 07:59 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]daggerpen, 2009-07-03 08:03 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lipsofpoison, 2009-07-03 08:06 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]daggerpen, 2009-07-03 08:10 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kingrockwell, 2009-07-06 12:32 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]daggerpen, 2009-07-06 02:03 am UTC

[info]islwyn
2009-07-03 05:31 pm UTC (link)
I don't know what's more horrifying, my off-hand conspiracy theories coming true, or Tony Daniel's bogus shit. Whoa.

So, basically, what we learn from Tony Daniel:
- there are no shades of grey, and mainstream DC's target audience should never kid themselves that there are
- there is apparently something wrong with you if you're sympathetic towards a morally ambiguous character?
- extensive emotional and psychological trauma? Pffft! He's Evil, it doesn't matter his psyche was probably wrung through a paper shredder!
- bad people cant even be good, full stop.

Thanks, Tony Daniel, for the reality check!

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]janegray, 2009-07-03 05:39 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]islwyn, 2009-07-03 05:45 pm UTC

[info]icon_uk
2009-07-03 05:44 pm UTC (link)
Sorry, I'm with Tony Daniel on this one; Jason has no trace of anything I'd call remotely heroic in him. He's gone WAY over to the darkside and is still accelerating. He murders (and it IS murder) without qualm, he's tried to kill the Batclan more times than most villains have, and sees nothing wrong with his actions. That's not someone I would call a hero.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

Just my 2 cents. - [info]lipsofpoison, 2009-07-03 05:49 pm UTC
Re: Just my 2 cents. - [info]islwyn, 2009-07-03 06:07 pm UTC
Re: Just my 2 cents. - [info]lipsofpoison, 2009-07-03 06:15 pm UTC
Re: Just my 2 cents. - [info]janegray, 2009-07-03 06:23 pm UTC
Re: Just my 2 cents. - [info]icon_uk, 2009-07-03 06:22 pm UTC
Re: Just my 2 cents. - [info]lipsofpoison, 2009-07-03 06:27 pm UTC
Re: Just my 2 cents. - [info]icon_uk, 2009-07-03 06:42 pm UTC
Re: Just my 2 cents. - [info]oddpuppets, 2009-07-03 07:07 pm UTC
Re: Just my 2 cents. - [info]kingrockwell, 2009-07-06 12:44 am UTC
Re: Just my 2 cents. - [info]runespoor7, 2009-07-03 07:37 pm UTC
Re: Just my 2 cents. - [info]lipsofpoison, 2009-07-03 07:57 pm UTC
Re: Just my 2 cents. - [info]autumn_lily, 2009-07-05 12:45 am UTC
Re: Just my 2 cents. - [info]janegray, 2009-07-03 06:37 pm UTC
Re: Just my 2 cents. - [info]icon_uk, 2009-07-03 06:43 pm UTC
Re: Just my 2 cents. - [info]janegray, 2009-07-03 06:54 pm UTC
Re: Just my 2 cents. - [info]autumn_lily, 2009-07-05 12:51 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]islwyn, 2009-07-03 06:00 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lipsofpoison, 2009-07-03 06:04 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kagome654, 2009-07-03 06:04 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lipsofpoison, 2009-07-03 06:05 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kagome654, 2009-07-03 06:18 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lipsofpoison, 2009-07-03 06:19 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]islwyn, 2009-07-03 06:37 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]parsimonia, 2009-07-03 07:19 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]janegray, 2009-07-03 07:32 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]parsimonia, 2009-07-05 02:04 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]scottyquick, 2009-07-03 06:17 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kagome654, 2009-07-03 06:20 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]janegray, 2009-07-03 06:27 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]scottyquick, 2009-07-03 07:53 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]icon_uk, 2009-07-03 06:24 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kagome654, 2009-07-03 06:36 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]icon_uk, 2009-07-03 06:44 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kagome654, 2009-07-03 08:37 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]runespoor7, 2009-07-03 07:40 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]janegray, 2009-07-03 06:13 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]islwyn, 2009-07-03 06:31 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]oddpuppets, 2009-07-03 07:15 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]unknownscribler, 2009-07-05 10:15 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]chengar, 2009-07-05 05:55 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]runespoor7, 2009-07-03 07:49 pm UTC

[info]daggerpen
2009-07-03 07:12 pm UTC (link)
*sighs* Yeah, I remember reading that. I don't think I've ever wanted to strangle a writer more.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]greenmask, 2009-07-03 07:33 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]hyperactivator, 2009-07-03 08:36 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lucky_sometimes, 2009-07-04 06:58 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]janegray, 2009-07-04 09:54 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lipsofpoison, 2009-07-04 11:27 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]jlbarnett, 2009-07-03 11:13 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]runespoor7, 2009-07-03 11:25 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]daggerpen, 2009-07-04 01:19 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]janegray, 2009-07-04 09:24 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sistermagpie, 2009-07-04 02:50 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]gamerguy, 2009-07-04 02:44 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kagome654, 2009-07-04 03:24 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]daggerpen, 2009-07-04 03:36 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kingrockwell, 2009-07-06 01:21 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kagome654, 2009-07-06 05:07 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kingrockwell, 2009-07-06 06:13 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kagome654, 2009-07-06 01:16 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]daggerpen, 2009-07-04 03:33 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]daggerpen, 2009-07-04 03:34 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kagome654, 2009-07-04 03:36 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]daggerpen, 2009-07-04 03:37 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kagome654, 2009-07-04 03:46 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]daggerpen, 2009-07-04 03:56 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]janegray, 2009-07-04 10:07 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]daggerpen, 2009-07-04 11:13 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kagome654, 2009-07-04 03:45 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]daggerpen, 2009-07-04 03:51 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kingrockwell, 2009-07-06 01:43 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]daggerpen, 2009-07-06 04:41 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]daggerpen, 2009-07-06 04:44 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kingrockwell, 2009-07-06 05:05 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]daggerpen, 2009-07-06 05:09 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lipsofpoison, 2009-07-04 12:09 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]daggerpen, 2009-07-04 04:41 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lipsofpoison, 2009-07-04 04:45 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]daggerpen, 2009-07-04 05:17 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lipsofpoison, 2009-07-04 05:21 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]daggerpen, 2009-07-04 05:23 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lipsofpoison, 2009-07-04 05:32 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]daggerpen, 2009-07-04 06:17 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lipsofpoison, 2009-07-04 06:23 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]daggerpen, 2009-07-04 06:23 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lipsofpoison, 2009-07-04 06:24 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]runespoor7, 2009-07-04 05:05 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lipsofpoison, 2009-07-04 05:08 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]daggerpen, 2009-07-04 05:20 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lipsofpoison, 2009-07-04 05:25 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]daggerpen, 2009-07-04 05:26 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lipsofpoison, 2009-07-04 05:32 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]runespoor7, 2009-07-04 05:42 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]daggerpen, 2009-07-04 06:51 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]runespoor7, 2009-07-04 08:11 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lipsofpoison, 2009-07-04 11:25 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]janegray, 2009-07-04 09:16 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]autumn_lily, 2009-07-05 12:28 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]daggerpen, 2009-07-05 12:38 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]autumn_lily, 2009-07-05 01:46 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]daggerpen, 2009-07-05 01:57 am UTC

[info]scottyquick
2009-07-03 05:11 pm UTC (link)
Wait, how can Jason Todd manage to stab Onyx? What happened?

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]lipsofpoison
2009-07-03 05:12 pm UTC (link)
He's very, very quick. She's advancing and talking to him and he just does it with a very, very sharp blade. So sharp 'you can't really feel it till it's in'.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]islwyn
2009-07-03 05:15 pm UTC (link)
Winick made him a bit of a super ninja duck.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]khamelea
2009-07-03 06:10 pm UTC (link)
I really wouldn't mind if they were to bring back this Red Hood!

(Reply to this)


[info]daggerpen
2009-07-03 07:06 pm UTC (link)
I had the exact same thought not long after reading that scene. Good to know I wasn't the only one.

(Reply to this)


[info]runespoor7
2009-07-03 07:44 pm UTC (link)
I know.

Even "Be my Robin" can't redeem this. Even the excuse that Bruce's death and last message caused Jason to get even crazier than usual pales.

For the record, I can't see Jason uttering the words "You find this humorous?" unless he's trying to mimic Batman in the exact way Dick was afraid he sounded like in the most recent issue of Batman and Robin.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]daggerpen
2009-07-03 07:46 pm UTC (link)
Every single word of dialogue from Jason in BftC made me wince, even ignoring the OOCness of it. I mean, I get that it can be difficult to give each character a distinctive way of speaking, but really- "you find this humorous"? Even I don't talk like that. I don't think anyone talks like that, let alone Jason.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]lipsofpoison
2009-07-03 07:52 pm UTC (link)
It's a slashers dream but a character nightmare.

I thought he sounded like a demonic Alfred, to be honest.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]runespoor7, 2009-07-03 08:14 pm UTC

[info]sistermagpie
2009-07-03 09:49 pm UTC (link)
Ouch. Always painfully when one writer directly contradicts another.

Though I can see how Winick's kind of making a meta joke, and also approaching Jason as somebody who thinks a lot about the behavior or villains and superheroes. He's obsessed about it. Where as Daniel had him trying to be Batman and asking somebody to be his Robin was a way of showing he wanted to be part of the family. (It's just that it made it seem like he didn't realize "be my Robin" from Jason to Dick or Tim is an insult.

(Reply to this)


[info]starwolf_oakley
2009-07-04 03:20 am UTC (link)
As Malkovich said in "In the Line of Fire," "The Irony is so thick you could choke on it."

Knightfall/Knightsend wanted to bring Azrael in as a Batman even darker than Bruce to show how it doesn't work. Or show how Bruce not letting bad guys die makes him "cool."

(Then Batman turned into the Scary Batgod that lives in Bruce Wayne's head. Making him twice as dark as Azrael.)

Then Jason shows up as a mix of the Punisher and Spider-Man (Deadpool?). And they even show him as effective. Black Mask tells Batman "He's done more to hurt me in six weeks than you ever did in six months."

And Jason being so popular as a dark character they have to make him villainous?

And this is from the company that gave us IDENTITY CRISIS. IC said (strongly hinted) that the Satellite Era Justice League willingness to alter the minds of villains makes them MORE MORAL than Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman. Who aren't willing to tamper with villains' minds.

This isn't Dan DiDio hating us. It's something else. But I'm not sure what.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]daggerpen
2009-07-04 05:25 pm UTC (link)
Stupidity, hypocrisy and/or short term memory loss.

I'm not entirely sure if I'm kidding or not.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]kingrockwell
2009-07-06 01:04 am UTC (link)
I dunno, what I got out of it was that the mind-wiping was definitely a bad thing. Hell, Infinite Crisis started because of how everyone responded to that news (Bruce launching Brother Eye, the Secret Society forming, etc).

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]psychop_rex
2009-07-05 12:48 am UTC (link)
So, wait, I'm confused - DID Jason wind up pulling the blade down to her hip, or did he pull it out? I can't quite tell from that second scan.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]daggerpen
2009-07-05 12:49 am UTC (link)
He pulled it out, and patched her up, actually. Then Batman came in, they fought, and Onyx was kind of forgotten.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]psychop_rex, 2009-07-05 01:16 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lipsofpoison, 2009-07-05 01:19 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]daggerpen, 2009-07-05 01:35 am UTC

[info]lipsofpoison
2009-07-05 12:49 am UTC (link)
Pulled it out and patched her up.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]autumn_lily
2009-07-05 01:15 am UTC (link)
I wouldn't classify Jason as an anti-hero nor and anti-villain. He's a guy that clearly needs help. What his doing is wrong, but contextually you'd put him in the 'mentally unstable' category, not the 'completely and utterly evil' category. Also? teaching kids that there is only black and white - no moral ambiguity = very harmful IMHO. Life is full of moral ambiguity. Every comic character has gone through some patch of it during their time of being written. Hell, didn't come of the good guys pretty much mind-rape a bad guy and Batman once? Why aren't they classified now as being evil, when what they did was clearly wrong? Because some would disagree upon the right and wrong of those actions, hence moral ambiguity. Some people believe in killing people who have done horrible things )i.e. killing, rape, maiming, torture, genocide, etc) while others think that killing those people brings you down to their level and hell, two wrongs don;t make a right yeah? If anything, Jason would simply be at this point the anti-Batman. That seems to be more his goal than anything. To him, Batman failed to stop the Joker, Black Mask, and crime in Gotham. 'So, if Batman's methods weren't cutting it, what should I do to fix this? - The opposite of what he's doing.' Jason's rationale is pathological, not to be used as his measuring stick of good or evil. Pathological (irrational or insane) thoughts and actions are they're own thing, outside of right and wrong, because there's a defect in the person's line of thought. First you'd have to get the person to a place where they are in a sense, truly themselves. Then one can see exactly how their mentality shall fall into what classification. Now, if the person cannot be fixed (the damage to their sense of self and their perception of reality is too far gone) then what can you do? Moral ambiguity has a place. If not, then every story would be simple and, to me at least, unappealing. How do you advance a character and make them grow without them having to go through some sort of test of will and emotional well being? Without making them question themselves, and for some, change, and for others, continue to persevere as always?

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]scottyquick
2009-07-05 03:13 am UTC (link)
Holy crap Zatanna did not mind-rape Bruce and can we stop saying she did?

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]autumn_lily, 2009-07-05 04:03 am UTC


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