InsaneJournal

Tweak says, "Baddaboo, Baddaba.... BOO!"

sam winchester (neversurrender) wrote in thedoorway,
@ 2013-09-08 22:23:00

Entry tags:

!network post, angel, ben reilly / spider-man (616), castiel, christine chapel, connor reilly, hestia jones, mara jade, paige matthews, sam winchester

First week of classes is over, and my schedule's all sorted out. I'm on track to take the LSAT in December, and finish my thesis and therefore my Classics degree by June. And that's not counting the classes I'm taking for fun or the competition I'll be entering next semester-- or, you know, work, or a social life.

In other words, I'm basically not going to sleep for like... a year. Or ever again. But if it works, it'll be worth it.

[VERONICA]

We'll have to figure out how to fit time for just us in between school and work and everything else. But I think we can manage that, don't you?

[FRIENDS*]

Also, if you haven't already heard from Dean, we're planning to get a place outside of the tower. Whenever that happens, I'll let you know.

*OOC: Off the top of my head, this includes everyone from his home world, Veronica Mars, Paige Matthews, Annie Sawyer, Mara Jade, Fox Mulder, Dana Scully, Illyana Rasputina, Moya, Ben Stone, Molly Carpenter, Christine Chapel, and anyone else I'm forgetting who knows Sam well and/or has had ~deep-ish~ conversations with him at some point. If you're not sure, ask :)

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[Angel | Sam]

neversurrender
2013-09-09 11:07 pm UTC (link)

Luckily it only lasted a short time, or I would have been hit with it. I came back to the tower pretty soon after the fact to find my friend.

Ha, yeah, he did. Don't worry about it, it's kind of flattering. Although you're right, Veronica does brag about me a little bit. I don't think the others do, though. And you know, I think that if I had to choose one favorite thing about this place, it's being able to talk to people about our lives. We've all ended up here where our secrets are exposed and a lot of us have the same kind of secrets in common anyway, so it leads to having a lot of really great conversations. It was a pretty big step for me, too-- still is, really. I get a lot out of talking to people here, like you and Connor. I hope you both get something out of it too.

SHIELD isn't prosecuting anyone, so far as I know, but I'm still not sure what a law school would think. I have a friend here who's a lawyer, and he's now my advisor, so I'm going to be asking him a lot of questions about how to handle that. But he knows a lot of my story and he's still talking like he thinks I have a chance, so hopefully that's a good sign. It'd be nice if my 'life experience' (that's probably the nicest way of putting it I've ever heard, honestly) was a point in my favor rather than a drawback, but I think that probably depends on how I spin it.

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[Angel | Sam]

broodypants
2013-09-10 04:04 pm UTC (link)

Yeah, it sounds like they shut it down pretty quickly. I'm not sure I trust SHIELD -- not because of anything they've done, really, just because I'm biased against big, powerful organizations -- but I gotta admit they probably handled that situation better than most people could've. (Which somehow makes me both less suspicious and more suspicious simultaneously.)

I'm still getting used to that, the whole having-our-secrets-exposed thing. I've kept a lot of really big secrets over the years, but so far people aren't reacting quite as angrily as I'd expected. Maybe they've had time to get over it. Or maybe it would just be impossible for all of us to stay pissed off about every secret we've uncovered. It's weird being able to talk about that stuff, but the good kind of weird when it leads to conversations like this. I don't think I realized just how badly I needed that until I got here, you know? You repress things long enough, you convince yourself it's for the best when really it's killing you.

I'd say it's a good sign if your friend/advisor thinks you've got a shot. If nothing else, it's an opportunity to prove you'd make a good lawyer. Well, a good defense attorney, anyway. I guess if you wanted to go into something like tax law, being able to spin someone's criminal record into a positive story might not be all that helpful. (Or maybe it would. I don't actually know anything about tax law. For the CEO of a law firm, my legal expertise is... not great. That's what I had Gunn for.) You seem to have a way with words, I'm sure whatever you come up with will win them over.

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[Angel | Sam]

neversurrender
2013-09-10 05:24 pm UTC (link)

Pepper and Tony are really the ones more responsible for tower security, so I imagine they had something to do with it too. They've been amazing about that, all things considered. But SHIELD does seem to have its act together. I guess in a world where superheroes and supervillains exist and are acknowledged by the government, they're a little more equipped to handle strange, you know? I've worked with them a little with the Vampire Task Force they put together, and I haven't seen them pull anything too shady since I've been here-- so I kind of know what you mean. Because if they're this put together, then they're either legitimate or they're just really good at covering their tracks.

It definitely takes some getting used to. I've had months for that, you know. Eventually you realize that not everyone knows all your worst secrets and that they wouldn't hate you if they found out-- and really the only way to realize that is to take chances on talking to people about it and see how it goes. I've had really good luck with it so far, and it's amazing how much better it feels not to be keeping all that inside. I definitely didn't realize how badly I needed it before I got here, either.

I was actually planning to be a prosecutor, I think. I mean, I like defending the innocent so I could go either way I guess, but even more, I want to be the one putting the bad guys away. And I don't want to end up having to defend some jackass who's actually guilty and paying me to act like he isn't. Whereas as a prosecutor, if I realized that the defendant was being unfairly charged, I could probably do something to get their charges dropped. But regardless of what side I'm on, I'll need to be able to anticipate the other side's angle, right? So I was planning to write it from both points of view. And thanks, for the vote of confidence. Even if, you know, 'having a way with words' is a debatable skill when it gets used for lying and manipulating in my line of work at home.

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[Angel | Sam]

broodypants
2013-09-12 05:47 pm UTC (link)

Exactly. It's hard to tell whether they responded so quickly because they're just really on top of things, or because they were in on it from the beginning. Where I come from, the latter was usually the case. If not the big organization itself, then someone who worked for them. I'd like to believe that SHIELD has nothing in common with Wolfram & Hart, but it's gonna be a while before I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. The Vampire Task Force sounds interesting, though. Buffy's helped with that too, right? What exactly do you guys do for that? Or is it a past tense thing at this point?

There's at least one person here who knows my worst secrets. It's not that I'm worried about being hated -- Spike doesn't even seem to hate me anymore, and he was there for those things -- so much as... I don't know. I guess I don't want people to realize just how much of a monster I truly used to be, you know? I'd like to pretend that killing was the worst thing I ever did, but really, the people I killed were probably the lucky ones compared to my other victims.

That makes a lot of sense. You could potentially help people on both sides as a prosecutor, it sounds like. And the justice system needs prosecutors who care whether the defendant has been fairly charged, rather than caring about getting the guilty verdict and furthering your career and nothing else. I'd love to read your essay whenever you end up writing it, by the way. If you don't mind sharing it, that is. You know, I think most people who have a way with words use it to lie and manipulate at some point. It's kind of unavoidable. As long as you were mostly using it for good -- for your job, for things that needed to be done -- that's the important thing. But I may be biased, because lying and manipulating were my bread and butter back home.

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[Angel | Sam]

neversurrender
2013-09-12 08:20 pm UTC (link)

I suspect that they may have had some forewarning, since whatever did it probably came through the tesseract. That's the source of most of the problems around here, at least indirectly. It spits out bad guys now and again, though thankfully nothing quite so big as some of the bad guys I saw at home. The main reason I'm fairly comfortable with them at this point is just because I've been here so long, and I'm fairly used to spotting shady things, you know? But the worst I've seen is just annoying bureaucracy stuff, nothing actually evil. I considered being an agent to see if I could get any insider information, but I doubt it'd have worked, and I'm not good at taking orders. Buffy doesn't seem to mind working for them, though, and yes, she's part of their team of agents that works with the VTF. I don't think it's past tense so much as they don't need us until the tesseract decides to spit out vampires again.

You're not going to get over that until you tell someone the worst of what you did, and realize that they still accept you anyway. I had to tell my girlfriend all of my worst secrets, and she still doesn't see me as a monster. I'm not sure how-- I honestly suspect she might be a little bit insane-- but I'm grateful for it, all the same. And I told that lawyer friend I mentioned about the apocalypse, and being the vessel of Lucifer, and leaving my half-brother down in the pit, because he's a religious man and wanted to know how all of the texts he's studied actually came to be in my world. And he's still sticking around.

My ability to see past that kind of thing is probably better than most, you know, just because of what I've been through. If you wanted to try out the telling people thing on me, you can. Open offer.

Yeah, I think that's how I could be the most useful. Sort of do the same thing I did at home, except in a courtroom, so a little less with the decapitation and setting things on fire and so on. I'd like to believe that the system works, you know, for humans. Obviously demons and shifters and the like can't be held in a jail cell. Which is probably another thing that I'll touch on in my essay, or maybe I'll write more than one. You can definitely read it when I'm done. I mean, I'm going to write it for a bunch of strangers who will decide whether or not I get the future I want, so showing it to you is a lot less frightening.

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[Angel | Sam]

broodypants
2013-09-12 10:46 pm UTC (link)

[ooc: trigger warning for mentions of extreme violence (including sexual violence) in the second paragraph, just in case you need it. <3]

So we're thinking somebody came through the Tesseract and put the fear gas in the air, and they're not telling us who did it? Or somebody came through to do it but they don't know who? I don't find either of those options particularly reassuring. If it was just me, I wouldn't even care, but with my friends here, and my kid... I'm really hating not being in the loop. Can't decide if that's a good enough reason to risk joining SHEILD, though. I'm not great at taking orders either. So this universe doesn't have any vampires of its own?

Thank god for slightly insane women -- who else would be willing to put up with guys like us? Okay. I'll try telling you some of it. Fair warning, though, it's pretty horrible. So, that guy I mentioned, Spike, he was turned by Dru, who I turned. She was a devout woman, like on the verge of sainthood, until I tortured her. I killed her family, then she joined a convent and I killed everyone there in front of her. I convinced her she was evil. Once she went insane, I turned her into a vampire so she'd be stuck that way forever. Then she turned Spike, and... I'm not even sure how to describe what I did to him. The words "torture" and "rape" kind of seem insufficient. I slept with his girlfriend -- which, considering she was insane, was technically rape too even if she let me do it -- right in front of him. And I told him it was all for his own good because he needed to learn how to deal with this stuff. I turned them both into monsters and I was proud of it.

If you can actually say that doesn't make you look at me differently... I mean, I can say "it was Angelus, not me," and it's true, but it's also a cop-out. Because if there was none of him in me, I wouldn't remember that stuff. But, hey. I guess if you can stand to be around me without ripping my guts out, then you'll know that you have enough willpower to spend all day in a courtroom around lowlife criminals without taking justice into your own hands. Because you'll probably never come across a human who's committed as many crimes as I have.

I think that's the main problem I've had with the justice system in the past. The fact that people like me could never be held in jail unless we wanted to be there. And then I met the lawyers at Wolfram & Hart. So it'd be nice to know one who's actually a decent person. I'm sure decent lawyers are more common outside of evil law firms, but I haven't met many of 'em.

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[Angel | Sam]

neversurrender
2013-09-12 11:19 pm UTC (link)

Either that or somebody from this universe did it. There are definitely people who feel unfriendly towards the refugees in the tower and towards Tony Stark. I suspect they don't know the who, but hopefully they'll figure it out pretty quick. I'm honestly kind of okay with being out of the loop and just taking care of my own people, personally. And no, this universe doesn't seem to have any of the things I usually hunt, except for what's come through the tesseract.

I'd be alone forever if not for slightly insane women. Or I'd just be in relationships where they knew none of this, which is much less appealing now that I know what it's like to actually be completely honest.

Mainly? It makes me look at you differently because I know you're walking around carrying all of that inside your head. I know how much effect things like that can have on a person, and not just on the people you hurt but on you, once you had enough of a conscience to kick yourself over it. Because that's the thing, monsters aren't always born, they're made. They're made by other monsters that turn you into creatures, or take away your soul, or feed you their blood. I'm not going to say it wasn't you, because I've been in enough situations where it "wasn't me", but it was, and I know what that feels like. So yeah, I can still stand to be around you without ripping your guts out, and I sympathize. I'm sorry that you had to be Angelus when you could have been Angel instead, if not for things going the way they did. If I'd met you as Angelus, sure, I definitely would've wanted to tear you apart, just like I'd have wanted to tear myself apart if I could have met myself soulless. But you're Angel now, which is the most important thing. You have a soul that gives you enough willpower to be a better person, and I don't think you're going to hurt anyone here. That's enough for me.

And I'm sure there will be plenty of lowlife criminals that I'll want to rip to shreds. It's almost worse when the monsters I run into are people, you know? More personal, less possible to see the difference between me and them. The scariest villains are the ones you can see yourself in. And yeah, your story scares the crap out of me, but not because you scare me, more because I'm scared of the part of me that could do awful things, too. That will do awful things, in the future.

But hopefully while I'm here I'll get to be the one decent lawyer that you know. And you'll be the one person I've met who's managed to come back from worse things than most people could even imagine. At home I might well end up being a human that's committed as many crimes as you have, so I'm counting on you to pull that off. Show me that there's hope for both of us.

But you know, no pressure or anything. I'm sure you're taking care of guilting yourself into it enough as it is.

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[Angel | Sam]

broodypants
2013-09-13 01:53 am UTC (link)

Well, that doesn't surprise me. I feel unfriendly toward Tony Stark, too. But that has less to do with the tower and more to do with the fact that he's a dick. Admittedly, I've been a dick right back to him. I just wish I felt at all equipped to take care of my people here -- but unless SHIELD is orchestrating some massive cover-ups, I guess I wouldn't have that much more information as a random low-level agent. And I'd like to think that Buffy would fill me in if something was happening there that I needed to know about.

Spike used to say Dru was the one who made him a vampire, but I was the one who made him a monster. ('Used to say' -- he said it two months ago. I guess it just seems like longer because the version of him that's here is so different.) It's so much easier to tell myself he would've become a monster anyway, but if that was the case, he wouldn't have needed any 'training' or whatever the hell I called what I did to him. So all of the destruction he's caused, all the lives he and Dru have taken, that blood is on my hands too. I think that's the worst part. Knowing that's the legacy I've left behind. I mean, Spike's got a soul now, but Dru doesn't. Spike tried to give her his, apparently, I don't even know how that works, but it just drove her more insane. I guess now that I'm a dad -- now that I know what it's like to create someone I truly love -- I realize that creating a monster is just about the worst thing a person can do.

By the way, you're quite possibly the most understanding person I've ever met. I know, I haven't given anyone else the opportunity to be understanding about this, but still. I'll do my best to show you that there's hope for us. That's only fair since you've been the one showing me there's hope since I got here.

Although for the record, if I ever do lose my soul while I'm here, I'm gonna be counting on you (or maybe Giles) to act on that urge to rip my soulless guts out and kill me. Or at least keep me busy until my friends can get my soul back in. That situation isn't very likely -- we learned from our mistakes when we had my soul extracted last year, and in order to lose it organically, I'd have to experience perfect happiness, which... I won't. But it's important to have backup plans just in case something goes wrong.

Actually, the pressure helps. If it weren't for peer pressure, I'd spend all my days just hiding in some dark corner.

And thank you. For being able to see past the things I've done. You can say it's just because you've been through, or might some day go through, similar things, but it's more than that. Lots of people judge others for doing things they've done themselves. It speaks to your strength of character that you don't.

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[Angel | Sam]

neversurrender
2013-09-13 03:21 am UTC (link)

Well, yeah, he is. I mean, they show that in the movies. But he's also gone out of his way to support and protect everyone that's come through here. I appreciate everything he and Pepper have done for us, because they definitely didn't have to do any of it. My brother and I are pretty used to surviving off the grid, so we'd have made it, but most people probably wouldn't have. And so far as I can tell, they're not doing it as a part of SHIELD, just-- coordinating, a little bit. Actually, I suspect they're less affiliated than most people assume they are. Although I don't have any evidence for that, it's just a gut feeling. And I know enough people in SHIELD that I think I'd have heard by now if they were pulling anything too shady. I think what's really impressed me most is that they're willing to admit when they don't have the manpower to handle what's coming through the tesseract-- and even what isn't-- and ask for help from those of us who have experience with it.

No, actually, I was talking about you. You've said that you used to be human. Something, someone, made you into a vampire, and that's the real cause behind all of that. It was you, but it wasn't you, because the part of you that was you was gone. You don't have to be a monster to create one, you know-- I actually created a vengeful ghost myself when I was just a kid in highschool, by beating up a kid who was picking on a friend of mine. I was just trying to defend my friend and do the right thing, but I didn't realize how troubled the bully was or that I only made his life harder by calling him a name that stuck. And I found out about that when I ended up hunting him, after he committed suicide years later. Obviously, intending to create a monster is different-- and I can only imagine how heavy that must be to carry around. No wonder you were ready to die when you found out there was going to be even more in the future.

Your future at home, I mean. I will definitely take you down if you end up dangerous again. I'd rather do the latter, and help you get your soul back without any blood shed-- you or anyone else. Your friends might hate me if I actually killed you. I'd hate me a little bit, too. So let's avoid that happening, okay? There's definitely pressure now, man. Don't make me kill you.

... Does experiencing perfect happiness really make you lose your soul? That's kind of fucked up.

You're welcome. I see past it because I want to, which is a little dangerous, honestly. I've ended up in bad situations because I thought I saw good in people where there wasn't any. That was right before I got here, actually, and I didn't think I'd be able to really trust anyone other than my brother ever again. Not even myself. Amazing what nine months of hanging out here can do, but it wouldn't have been possible if people didn't bother to give me a chance and trust me despite all the reasons I shouldn't be trusted. It's kind of the opposite of that monsters creating monsters cycle, and I want to continue it. I need that kind of hope, maybe more than anything else in the world. If you're here long enough, I think you'll start to see why this place is full of it.

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[Angel | Sam]

broodypants
2013-09-13 03:50 pm UTC (link)

Yeah, I appreciate the things he's done for us too. I don't so much appreciate him trying to tell me how to live my life or treat the people I care about. I mean, granted, I would've done exactly the same thing if I thought he was hurting one of my friends, but... whatever. It's a long story and it doesn't make me look too good, so I should just get over it. I agree that a lot of people here wouldn't have been able to make it without his and Pepper's help, though. Sometimes I forget that being sent through a portal into another world isn't a normal occurrence for everyone. And the people who've been displaced through centuries or from another planet or into a different life form -- that'd be a tough adjustment to make on your own.

Oh. Well, yes, Darla made me a monster, technically. Hard to think of myself as a victim, though. Even when I was human. I wasn't Angel back then. The First Evil was right, I was a drunken, whoring layabout and a disappointment to my father. The person I am today wouldn't exist without Angelus. Which sucks to admit. I'm sorry to hear about the ghost you accidentally created, though. Even though you didn't intend it, I'm sure you still blame yourself for it on some level. And realizing what you'd done, that couldn't have been a pleasant surprise. At least when I created monsters, I generally knew what I was doing.

It's part of my curse. The perfect happiness thing. I guess the point is to make sure I stay unhappy forever, or to punish me if I stop... I don't know, I wasn't actually told about it so I found out the hard way, by losing my soul after I slept with Buffy. But as long as I avoid intimacy with someone I love, I should be okay. You know, you never really hear about the times people get pressured into not having sex!

It may be dangerous to see the good in people sometimes, but you're right that living without any hope or trust in others -- it's too hard to go on like that. The few times I've gotten really dangerous while still ensouled, it's happened because I isolated myself from everyone. I thought I was protecting them from me, but I was just making myself more of a threat because I had nothing good left to live for. And honestly, it probably would've happened when I got here if I didn't have people like you to talk to. So that 'opposite of monsters creating monsters' cycle is pretty literal in this case. You and a couple other people kept me from becoming a monster. Can't guarantee it won't happen again in the future, but that's a pretty big accomplishment that you should be proud of.

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[Angel | Sam]

neversurrender
2013-09-13 11:47 pm UTC (link)

It can't be that long a story, you've only been here a month. What happened?

So, you were a drunk, then a vampire, then you got your soul back somehow but you also got cursed? Or is there a step in there that I missed? Is there a part in there where you did good things, saved lives, got to be proud of yourself for a little bit even if it went to hell again later? Those times are worth something too, you know. Becoming this person after all of that means something. I mean, Jesus, man, the hits have been coming for you since the dark ages and it doesn't sound like they're going to stop, but you're still here sympathizing with me for the things I've been through. That shows more strength than you're probably giving yourself credit for.

How does this curse work, exactly? Or I should say, what do you know about it? Have you tried breaking it? Having to avoid being happy to keep from losing your soul is really, really rough. And not just because you're not getting laid. Or not with people you love, anyway. I mean, I tried to avoid falling in love here because almost everyone I've cared about like that is dead, or will be dead-- just one, really, is still alive, and that's probably only because the relationship wasn't going to work out anyway. But if I would actually become dangerous if I really found happiness with someone, I'd avoid relationships like the plague. And that's a pretty lonely life to lead.

Exactly. You know, I think having people in your life can really make all the difference. Having something (or someone) to believe in. Family is what I've always been able to count on, and I don't mean just blood relatives. Friends can be family too. And you know, I'm not surprised that you were that close to shutting yourself off, but I'm glad you didn't. I'm not going to let you turn into a monster, okay? I'm watching out for you.

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[Angel | Sam]

broodypants
2013-09-14 12:38 pm UTC (link)

It's less about the length and more about the embarrassment. When I first got here, when I was still really depressed, I met one of Tony's friends. He wanted me to feed off of him ~~among other things~~. He's immortal, so he wasn't in any danger, but I ended up taking a lot of anger out on him. The fact that I had his permission doesn't make it any less wrong, you know?

See, that's the kind of crappy decision I make when I shut myself off. I've done a lot worse too -- I let Darla & Dru slaughter a whole roomful of corrupt lawyers once, and another time, I tried to kill one of my best friends -- just in case you needed more incentive to keep an eye on me. Or incentive to set a good example as a lawyer, I guess. (Sorry. Bad joke.)

My soul is the curse, actually. It was a punishment for killing someone, to make me feel the weight of my sins. That was over a century ago; the only person around today who might know more about it is Jenny, Giles's girlfriend, but considering I killed her when I lost my soul in Sunnydale, she's not my biggest fan. I kind of feel like I'd be cheating if I broke the curse, anyway. I earned it, now I have to live with it.

And, okay, maybe I'm a little scared of happiness at this point. I don't know if I'd still be me. Maybe I'd get complacent. Maybe I'd stop helping people. Have you struggled with that at all, since you've been with Veronica? I mean, you're obviously still helping people, just in slightly different ways since I assume your kind of demons aren't in this world. You're actually a really good role model there. Was that an easy transition to make or do you ever feel like you're not doing enough?

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[Angel | Sam]

neversurrender
2013-09-14 06:49 pm UTC (link)

Huh. Wait, which Tony Stark are we talking about? And which immortal friend?

Those are pretty crappy decisions, even if I can't be too pissed about the corrupt lawyers. I'm sure being a lawyer would come with having a target on my head, even if I'm not corrupt. If I'm doing it right, I'll be putting away a lot of bad guys, some of whom might decide that they'd have a better chance at getting away with murder if they got me out of the way. Or they might just want revenge after the fact, I suppose, if they managed to get out of jail. Sad thing is, I'm all too aware of how possible it is to get out of prison. If I can Houdini my way out, I'm sure the real bad guys can do it too.

Oh. That's a twist I didn't see coming. I've never managed to break a curse, anyhow; last time I ran into one, I just tried to survive it. But there might be people here who would be able to do it. Don't you think it might be worth looking into, if only to make the likelihood of losing your soul again a little bit lower? I mean, the best chance you've got of not hurting anyone is making sure your soul sticks around to guilt you over it.

Well, I'm selfish. I've never wanted the hunting lifestyle, I've always wanted to be normal. Or at least safe. And yeah, I definitely run the risk of becoming complacent. But I've kept myself in fighting shape in case shit goes south, and I've joined in to help in some way every time there's been a disaster. I still have a desire for the feeling of being fulfilled-- knowing that I'm doing something to help people, that I'm making a difference. I've fucked up enough, even at this point in my life, that I feel like I need to keep doing things to make the good I've done outweigh the bad. But this kind of helping people-- reaching out to someone who's battling their dark side-- is actually a part of my job at home. Just here, I've had a lot more success with it. Usually at home, I've ended up having to kill the person when they gave in to being a monster. I don't think it's that I'm doing a better job here so much as the people here are more motivated than most I've tried to help at home, and it's just been easier for them, in general. Our situation in this world is pretty perfectly set up to help people like you and me succeed, you know? Plenty of people around that can relate to what we've been through and willing to offer support or at least acceptance. This place is really kind of amazing, when I stop and think about it.

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[Angel | Sam]

broodypants
2013-09-14 10:49 pm UTC (link)

There's more than one Tony Stark? I don't know which one I'm talking about, then. The immortal friend is Dorian Gray, though. Maybe that narrows it down? I don't know any of the superhero types well enough to be able to distinguish between different versions.

Yeah, I didn't feel too bad about the lawyers, gotta admit. Although two of them survived, and one of them's here. So revenge is certainly a possibility, but I don't think she's interested in that right now. How did you manage to get out of prison? Breaking out is easy when you have super strength and speed; I'm always curious about how regular people manage it. Especially if they do it without killing anyone. Your hunting background might come in handy if a criminal tries to attack you. Not every lawyer can back up their verbal sparring with actual combat skills.

I hadn't thought about it like that, honestly. Getting my soul permanently secured for other people's safety rather than my own comfort. I guess it wouldn't hurt to consider it. I was worried about pissing off Jenny by going against her ancestors' wishes, but I killed her when I was soulless. Making sure it's securely fastened would be a good way to keep her safe.

It's not selfish to want to be safe. Believe me, I know selfish, and that's not it. There are a lot of ways to make a difference without hunting, and you've found several of those. I guess my problem is that I'm not really good at helping people any other way. I mean, I've talked a couple of friends off the ledge before, but I'm not sure it would translate with people I don't know as well. It's less a talking thing and more a being-there-for-them thing. Maybe it just takes time. And you're right, this place is set up for success more than just about anywhere else I can think of. So there's less pressure on me to be everything to everyone, which I definitely suck at. I could be a few things to a few people, though. Maybe that's enough. Maybe it's a matter of reframing expectations.

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[Angel | Sam]

neversurrender
2013-09-15 12:23 am UTC (link)

There's at least three versions. I'm not sure exactly how many. There's also a couple of Peter Parkers and a couple Natasha Romanoffs. Mainly comic book characters get doubles. But that does narrow it down, yeah, mainly because I've been keeping track of Dorian Gray. Or I was, rather. I didn't know about what went down with you and him, so obviously I'm not doing the best job of it. But it's Dorian Gray, and he's said some really questionable things on the network, so... well, anyway, you didn't piss off our host, technically. Just a version of him.

Who's the lawyer? I'll keep an eye on her too. And I got out of prison because I had connections. And then because demons broke in to kill me and my brother. After that... well, the angels probably would've broken us out if we'd gotten caught again, but the government thought we were dead for a while. Then the leviathans got us arrested but also broke in to kill us and the cop that let us go pretended that they'd managed it. Or that someone had managed it, rather; the word 'leviathan' didn't come up in his story, obviously. And you know, I really doubt any gang banger or corrupt politician or murderer or rapist is going to scare me after the crap I've seen.

Well, I mean, that's why I suggested it. So that if you slip up and sleep with someone you love (which, let's face it, is probably a pretty big temptation), you won't end up hurting anyone. And I'd like to think that even Jenny would understand, given that your soul is the main thing standing between you and being dangerous to her, but I guess that depends which is more important to her-- her safety or her ancestor's wishes. I don't know her, so I could honestly see it going either way.

I went about it selfishly, then. I left my family behind. But here, I'm still living with my brother, and even my parents were here for a while, though they're dead back home. Even my half-brother showed up for a quick second and then vanished again. Back to hell, probably, assuming he went back home-- because just about every member of my family seems to end up down there at some point. But anyway, not trying to change the subject. You know you don't have to find some perfect way to help people, right? At least not yet. I mean, maybe you just need to work on getting yourself together for a while. If you can help a few other people a little bit, that would probably help you, too. Start there and figure the rest out later on.

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[Angel | Sam]

broodypants
2013-09-15 01:20 am UTC (link)

Jesus. I knew about the multiple Peter Parkers, because Buffy's dating one of them -- well, she's dating a clone of one of them, so not exactly the same thing -- but yeah, I didn't realize there were versions of people with the same name. I guess I don't have a problem with this universe's Tony, then. Dorian Gray says a lot of questionable things, honestly. Even to me, and he knows that I'll kill him if I decide he's too dangerous to be out running around freely. But I'm not sure that excuses what I did. Human blood is human blood even if it comes from someone without a soul.

The lawyer is Lilah Morgan. Not a bad idea to keep an eye on her if you can. So how many times have you been in jail total? Three, or did I count wrong? I'm actually surprised that doesn't happen more often to people in my world -- only one of my friends has ended up in jail, and that was for things that had nothing to do with demon hunting. (Well, she killed a guy because she thought he was a vampire and didn't make sure first. But her other crimes were totally human.)

It is a big temptation, but I've avoided it before. It's been easy, really, because Cordy and I never quite managed to get into sync back home. Now that Connor's here, I don't see that changing. Even though he knows about our feelings for each other, I could never do that to him. And I respect both of them too much to try to sneak around behind his back. But the curse leaves me vulnerable in other ways, too. Someone once drugged me with a tranquilizer, and it made me synthetically happy enough to lose my soul until it wore off.

I'm the king of selfish, so I'm not gonna judge you for having gone about something selfishly. You had your reasons, I'm sure. You're young, even if you didn't have a good reason, it seems pretty unfair to blame you for that kind of thing. Last time I checked, people your age are supposed to make mistakes. You learned from it, that's what matters. And for the record, it's okay if you do change the subject. We don't have to talk about me all the time. I like listening to you. Even more than you give me hope for me, you give me hope for Connor. If he works through the shit his life has dealt him and turns out anything like you, I'll be proud as hell. (I mean I'll be proud of him no matter what, but still.) Have your parents ever shown up here?

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[Angel | Sam]

neversurrender
2013-09-15 02:33 am UTC (link)

I don't just mean the clones. I think there's one that's actually from this universe, and then the one that's from somewhere else and has clones. It took a lot of digging to figure that out and I'm still not entirely positive I've got it right. But I'm 99% positive that the Stark who hangs out with Dorian Gray isn't the one that's been playing host to us. He isn't on the network as much, and he tends to write in all lowercase letters. Like this. Not quite the same guy, right?

As for what you did to Dorian, I'm not going to say it was a good thing, and I don't think you should do it again. But I can't hold it against you. I drank blood from a demon who was possessing a person-- and yeah, I made her possess someone that was brain dead so they wouldn't have to deal with any of the things we were doing, but near the end she said she couldn't give me enough, so I drained an innocent possessed human dry. I'm really not proud of that, especially since it backfired big time.

I'll look her up and keep an eye out for her around the network. And technically, I've only been in jail the once. On purpose, for a job-- a friend of my dad's worked in the prison, and a ghost had started killing people off in there. The other times, when the demons and leviathans came for us, we were just in holding cells in the police station. There have been warrants out for us for a long time, though. Starting with a shapeshifter that took my brother's form and ended up framing him for murder. But then "Dean" supposedly died, because we killed him, so they thought he was dead. Except then we got into even more trouble. How do you do this job without running into law enforcement? Are they ridiculously incompetent in your world, or something?

Hey, if drugs can do that to you, you should definitely figure something out. Because there's all sorts of magic going crazy around here and things getting into the water and so on and so forth. Although I think the curse is a little messed up, if it's supposed to be 'true happiness'-- synthetic happiness isn't real happiness.

I've always had my reasons. Doesn't make everything I did right or excusable, even the things that didn't end with someone getting hurt. Though it's hard to point to anything in my life and say that it didn't end that way. Maybe not in the short term, but long term, there's always something. And you know, I'm not that young, especially since I had to grow up pretty fast-- though compared to you I can see how I'd seem that way. Mentally, though, if you count all the years in hell-time in my future, I'm pushing a couple of centuries. But you know, I think Connor will probably turn out alright. I've only talked to him briefly, but it seems like he's got his head on straight, at least mostly. I'll talk to him more and try to help him through it.

Yeah, my dad showed up first, really young. Like from the time that Dean and I went back in time and met him ahead of schedule, actually. And then my mom showed up from a little before that. She died when I was six months old, and I hadn't reached the point in my life when I went back to meet her, so it was... basically the first time I ever got to spend any length of time with her and remember it. I also didn't have the best relationship with my dad, so getting to meet him when he was young and see what he was like before my mom died, before he became a hunter... that was really something.

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[Angel | Sam]

broodypants
2013-09-15 04:15 pm UTC (link)

And I thought it was weird having some actor lookalike on the other side of the country. Well, at least none of the superhero doppelgangers are evil vampires -- I assume. That happened to Willow once back in Sunnydale. (For future reference reference, if someone ever does meet a vampire version of themselves, don't tell them that vampire personalities are rooted in their human personalities. Apparently people don't like hearing that kind of thing.) But this solves the mystery of 'why does Tony Stark occasionally forget how to use the shift key?'

So in your world, demons are basically spirits, right? We had a few possessions back home, but demon is more of a blanket term for supernatural creatures in our world. I'm technically a demon, or part demon, anyway. That must make things really difficult in your world, though. If you hurt them, you hurt the human they're possessing. Why did you need to drink the demon blood, anyway? Was it for a job, or because of an addiction, or both? Anyway, don't worry, I definitely won't be doing it again. It's too dangerous, even without the risk of death. Bad things have happened when I've gone down that road before, and I have too many people I have to be strong for here.

Actually, yeah, the police are pretty incompetent in our world. Not all of them -- I've known some great cops in LA, but for the most part, they're either in total denial about what's going on around them, or they're too busy with other stuff to worry about us. Or maybe Wolfram & Hart has been paying them off, who knows. Gotta keep the key player in their precious little apocalypse out of trouble.

I have no idea how the whole synthetic happiness thing even worked, to be honest with you. One of my friends speculated that maybe I just assumed I'd lost my soul and acted accordingly, but... that makes me sound incredibly stupid, so I'm not thrilled with that theory. And I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have expected to get it back once the drug wore off, so. I don't know, there's a lot about my curse that doesn't make sense. And it's just occurring to me that we don't have an Orb of Thesulah here. So if I did lose my soul, the restoration ritual wouldn't even work. Shit. I kind of have to find another way to keep my soul in now. I borrowed some occult books from Giles & Wes to research a murder -- your brother told us you guys were looking into it too, by the way, the four men in the salt circle on the Lower East Side? Have you been to the crime scene yet? -- so I guess I'll start checking in those while I'm waiting for sunset.

I always forget to count the hell years, even for myself. A century or two isn't much at this point for me, but that would change your age pretty significantly, huh? And no, having a reason doesn't make everything you did right. But wanting to get away from things that were trying to kill you and go to college instead? I'm sorry, I can't see that as selfish or a mistake, no matter what it led to. That's exactly what I want for Connor, and even if I died because he wasn't around to protect me, I'd be fine with that as long as he survived. His only responsibility to me or his other parents (or his other other father, for that matter) anyone else who helped raise him is to pursue what makes him happy. That option obviously kind of fizzled out for you, until you got here, but you couldn't have predicted that when you were a teenager heading off to school.

Wow, so you've met your parents when they were younger? Did they know who you were? Had you even been born yet? That must have been quite an adjustment for them, suddenly finding out they have grown children. It was an adjustment for me and my kid didn't even time travel, he just got kidnapped to another dimension where time moved differently. Of course, he was also raised to hate me and want me dead, so that was the more pressing subject on my mind. Did you get to spend a lot of time with them before they got taken back? (I assume they got taken back; seems like they would've come up sooner if they were still here.) I'm really glad you got to see them like that, though. Everybody deserves to have positive memories of their parents. And who knows, maybe the Tesseract will bring them back some day.

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[Angel | Sam]

neversurrender
2013-09-15 05:18 pm UTC (link)

So far as I know none of them are evil doppelgangers, although something weird happened with one of the Peter Parkers a little bit ago. Still not sure exactly what it was. Do vampire versions of people happen often where you come from?

Yes. They're human souls that went to hell and got twisted and broken until their humanity is gone. Then they claw their way back up to the surface (and a lot of them do, because even demons don't much like hell) and possess people to cause destruction and death and chaos for its own sake. Sometimes for a larger purpose too, like the apocalypse. They definitely are difficult to get rid of without hurting the person they're wearing, which is actually a lot of the reason I was drinking the blood. It gave me the power to exorcise them and then kill them with my mind, rather than having to recite an exorcism or use holy water or the knife we had that could kill demons (but also killed the person). Most people survived being possessed when I used my abilities to save them, but it was also an addiction and it was making me more and more demonic in the process. And it started the apocalypse. So drinking blood, even when it's from someone that's consenting and you can rationalize that you're not hurting anyone with it… still not a good idea.

I've heard that, too, that demon is a more broad term in your world. And it means something different in other worlds as well. We obviously have creatures other than demons, but we call them different things. 'Spirit' is more of a catch-all term for incorporeal things, and 'creature' for anything corporeal.

Well, the police are incompetent in regards to supernatural stuff where I come from, too, but they sure got close to catching us a few times. Or rather, the FBI did. There was one agent named Henricksen who was really good at his job, although he only caught us because he got a tip from a thief that stabbed us in the back. He ended up fighting off the demons with us and then "killing" us so that the law would think we died. Sadly he was the one that ended up dying-- real shame, because he was a good person. Would have been a good hunter, too.

I'm not sure I buy that theory, either. But it is weird that it disappeared and then came right back. Did it come back after you slept with Buffy, you know, whenever the feeling would have worn off? You know, maybe the drugs just… subdued your soul, somehow. Made you happy enough that the curse started to take effect and your soul nearly got separated, but not quite, so it was still technically there when the drugs left your system. We probably could get an Orb, or something close to it, but I definitely think we should try looking into something more permanent. I can see what I can dig up, too, but I think our best bet here probably isn't books-- probably something more to do with the people that are here and the experience they have. I'd like to talk to Illyana about it, actually, if you don't mind, because she's messed with her own soul, so she probably has some idea of how to work magic on souls.

Yeah, we have been looking into that. I'm about to write up something about what I've found (or rather, not found), actually. I'll add you and the people from your world to the filter.

I still feel like I'm twenty-six, but yeah, there are a few centuries of hell in my head, which is a little strange. And… thanks, for that. I've kicked myself over it multiple times, because it got my girlfriend killed and because it made things harder with my family, but you're right. I still don't think the desire to get out of this life and be normal and safe is wrong.

Well, the weird part about the fact that we time-traveled is that they did know our faces, but not who we were, because we didn't say "we're your sons from the future". That took some explaining. But I spent as much time with them as I could, especially my mom. I wish they'd gotten to stay, because I know they really wanted to, but the tesseract sent them back anyway. If they came back here I'd be really glad to see them.

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[Angel | Sam]

broodypants
2013-09-16 05:05 pm UTC (link)

As far as I know, the vampire thing only happened once, with Willow. She was pretty upset over it -- I think her doppelganger was hitting on her, too, so that was weird. But no, thankfully not a common occurrence.

It sounds like you had a good reason to start drinking demon blood, if you were trying to help people. I mean, like you said, it doesn't excuse what happened, but I can understand how you must have felt. There are plenty of times I've ended up doing something bad under the justification that it was saving people or that it was for the greater good. And even when it does work out exactly the way I intended, the guilt's still there. As much as it sucks that what you did started the apocalypse, I'm guessing you would've felt guilty about it afterward even if it hadn't. Eventually you guys stopped the apocalypse though, right? Is that one of those things that's still technically in your future?

You know, I don't think we've ever had the FBI after us. Which is nothing short of a miracle. Spike and I have both been captured by the US military at different times -- mine was during World War II, they forced me to save a submarine that had been crashed by Nazi vampires, but after that they let me go. Spike was experimented on in some government facility and got a chip in his head that prevented him from hurting humans for a few years. I'd say he got the worse deal, but if not for that chip, he probably wouldn't have ever decided to get his soul back. They did him a favor, really.

No, my soul definitely didn't come back after I slept with Buffy. It took several witches to re-ensoul me that time, same as last year when I let my friends remove my soul for a while (we were trying to kill something that only Angelus remembered how to fight, because of some weird spell that affected my ensouled memories but not my soulless ones). So your theory about my soul loosening while the drug was in my system might be the best one I've heard. I don't know if it's possible to get an Orb of Thesulah anywhere other than my world. Maybe Giles would know. You're welcome to talk to Ilyana about it -- or anyone who might have an idea of what we could do. Considering my type of vampire doesn't exist here, I'm guessing our soul restoration rituals don't either, so we'll have to get creative.

I'm really sorry that going away to college made things harder with your family and that your girlfriend died there -- I can absolutely see why you'd feel bad because of that. But you were just trying to live a normal life, and that's nothing to kick yourself over. Hopefully you can have that here. It's kind of a second chance, except this time you're older and wiser and better prepared to make informed decisions. And also you're not being shoved around by demons and angels, so that helps a lot, I'm sure.

It's hard to understand why the Tesseract does the things it does sometimes. But it seems like a lot of people get sent here multiple times, so at least there's a chance your parents might come back eventually. Although it sucks that they wouldn't remember being here before. You said your brother's been here more than once, right? Has that been difficult, or does having him back outweigh the downsides so much that it doesn't even matter?

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[Angel | Sam]

neversurrender
2013-09-17 07:49 pm UTC (link)

That is really weird. And I can see how finding out that vampire personality was based on hers would be upsetting. No one likes to be confronted with the darker parts of themselves. Or their evil vampire twins.

I did. I like to think I've always had good reasons, but that doesn't make me feel any better about it. Honestly, it kind of makes it worse in some ways. It's not a good feeling, you know, not being able to trust my own judgment. Obviously I don't want to go darkside or anything, but I'd like to be able to trust myself. That's actually something that just happened for me-- or at least the drinking blood and starting the apocalypse part, that was my last year or so before I showed up here. We will stop it, but that hasn't happened yet.

You're lucky there; having the FBI on your tail is no picnic. Although the military doesn't sound like it was either. Were there seriously Nazi vampires? There were Nazi necromancers in my world, that's something I'm going to deal with in my future.

There was an Orb like that in my world, although I never used it myself. There could be one here. If there were, well-- if Giles doesn't know, Dr. Strange might. Although I don't really trust him, even though Illyana does. My friend Cas might be able to help, although it probably depends on where your soul goes when it leaves you. When I was in the pit, and he pulled me out, he didn't manage to get my soul out with the rest of me. We don't have rituals so much as beings that can bring them back-- but to get mine back, my brother had to make a deal with Death. As in the horseman. If your soul doesn't get locked up quite as tightly as mine did, though-- or I guess if it doesn't go back through the tesseract to your original universe, which is another possibility-- then I'd think Cas would be able to help. Or if he couldn't, he'd certainly be able to help knock you out while we find another option. He's an angel of the lord, so, there's not much that's above his paygrade. Even if he is cut off from heaven at the moment.

This place is awesome, honestly. I have a girlfriend, I have school, and I also have my family, and I'm still hunting, when stuff comes up. I could do without the hunting personally, but as long as my brother's doing it, I'm going to be watching his back. And the fact that I can tell people that I'm a hunter, that I have demon blood, that I'm Lucifer's human vessel-- that's been pretty big for me. I'm all of those things, but I'm not a freak or an outcast anymore, like I always was at home. And there is a demon here as well as an angel, but she's… well, it's complicated, but she's on our side now.

Losing people through the tesseract is probably the biggest downside of this place. It's never easy, although it's different from the way I've lost my brother at home-- when he went to hell, for instance. Going home isn't the same as dying. It was hard to lose him, but since he's managed to come back within a week both times, I can't honestly complain about it. And once he's back, everything in this universe is right again. Which… sounded kind of weird, but after everything we've been through, anything is easier to deal with as long as we're dealing with it together. Last time he left, though, I realized I still wanted to stay even without him here. Apparently after every time I've let him down or left him behind or chosen something else over him, even though I've learned the lesson each time, I'm still selfish enough to do it all over again. Although if Veronica wasn't here, then it might be different.

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