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mysteryfan (mysteryfan) wrote in scans_daily,
@ 2009-05-10 11:21:00

Entry tags:

char: batman/bruce wayne, char: catwoman/selina kyle, char: robin/nightwing/dick grayson, creator: frank miller, publisher: dc comics, series: bat/cat, title: all-star batman and robin

Frank Miller's best Bat/Cat: All-Star Batman and Robin

I think some people are bothered by Batman calling Catwoman 'baby', and the way she's all beaten up. I'm fine with ASBAR's crazy wacked-out manchild version of Batman using that word, and I like the way he sees her as a peer (in the preview image before the cut).

The beaten up part is another, more complicated deal, but she DOES get to be tough, I don't mind crazy ASBAR Batman noticing she's small when she's not moving around fighting somebody, and I'm glad she's not sporting a black eye, wearing a Wonder Woman outfit and tied up with a golden lasso until she's rescued by Batman. Like she was in Frank Miller's 1986 Dark Knight Returns.

What a difference 22 years makes or something else? I don't know. We also can't know what was going to happen next since ASBAR's on hiatus. But I thought it was kind of an interesting contrast.

I like this one better.

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chipsnopotatoes
2009-05-10 01:51 pm UTC (link)

i don't like the prostitute idea that miller introduced but this scene really turned me around in my opinion of him. in his own way, he's as much of a bat/cat fan that we are.

despite the fact that she got beat up, i didn't get that she was written as weak at all. i remember writing these comments when this was first posted in scans daily:
1. "...lunatics in tights, we look out for each other" - implies some sort of reciprocity (i.e. she looks out for him too) and not just catwoman being a damsel in distress.
2. "baby" - term of endearment between two people in a relationship, not said in a belittling fashion
3. "small, light, and perfect" - even though she's supposed to be 5'8". what can i say, love is blind (or in this case, perception-altering even for the world's best goddamned detective)

this is really such a sweet scene, doubly so considering i'd never associate it with frank miller. i'm curious to see where he goes with this, hence why i'm more interested in the next issue of ASBAR than any of the other ones in continuity, yes, even sirens.

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	captain_clown 2009-05-10 01:59 pm UTC (link)
	Yeah I definitely think Miller is a Bat/Cat fan but I prefer the Jeph Loeb version of Bat/Cat romance. I need to pick up sirens. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	chipsnopotatoes 2009-05-10 02:10 pm UTC (link)
	i don't disagree with you. i like loeb's bat/cat stuff as well -- especially the long halloween/dark victory stories. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	captain_clown 2009-05-10 05:18 pm UTC (link)
	I love how Tim Sale draws Bats all tense when Catwoman is there, its just so dern cute. (Reply to this) (Parent)

mysteryfan
2009-05-10 02:34 pm UTC (link)

Yes! I remember. I couldn't remember your exact words but I very much agree with those three thoughts of yours, think they're very well said, and the ideas influenced the way I worded things when I wrote this post.

Huh. I'll have to think about the Miller as bat/cat fan concept. Maybe in his own weird way? He does tend to include her. And then I think of this song some teacher had in her classroom in elementary school. It was about 'Helping'. It went:
Some kinds of help are the kind of help that helping's all about.
And some kinds of help are the kind of help we all can do without.

I do know this *above* is very different than DKR. And I'm glad.

ASBAR's apparently officially 'on hiatus' at the moment but I wonder if maybe Miller was going to continue humanizing Batman into someone more emotionally mature through his interactions with Selina and Dick.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	chipsnopotatoes 2009-05-10 06:47 pm UTC (link)
	yeah, weird isn't it? i read a miller interview somewhere about the batman returns movie. When asked whether he would watch it, he seemed excited and said something to the effect of "catwoman and michelle pfeifer, how often do my fantasies collide..." kind of creepy, but i prefer to think he's really a catwoman fan ;) (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	mysteryfan 2009-05-10 07:43 pm UTC (link)
	I'm going to go out on a limb now and say that this is by far, his best go at Bat/Cat. Yay, Frank Miller. And how weird does it feel to type that? (Reply to this) (Parent)

	kingrockwell 2009-05-10 10:14 pm UTC (link)
	I've always seen Selina in BYO his own weird way of celebrating her. He didn't do it out of malevolence of apathy, he just...has a very different idea of what makes a good female character. Sure, she's a prostitute like so many of his later lady characters, but wasn't she the first? (Reply to this) (Parent)

	sailorlibra 2009-05-10 03:28 pm UTC (link)
	"small, light, and perfect" - even though she's supposed to be 5'8". In comic books, height is very relative. I've found descriptions listing Babs as 5'7", 5'11", and Batgirl Y1 made a big deal of how short she was, presumably placing her under five feet. Selina may be supposed to be 5'8", but that means nothing in the world of comics. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	chipsnopotatoes 2009-05-10 06:40 pm UTC (link)
	Yes, it's relative, but i think the crucial point is she's "small, light and perfect" TO HIM. It's how he perceives her, regardless of how tall she is or how much she weighs. Anyway, the operative word is "perfect" (Reply to this) (Parent)

	psychop_rex 2009-05-11 02:46 am UTC (link)
	Well, compared to this version of Batman, who's basically built like a tank, she IS fairly small. Besides, look at that panel of her standing next to the cop - sure, she's not at her full height there, but it looks to me like she's not a particularly tall woman. (Reply to this) (Parent)

parsimonia
2009-05-10 07:51 pm UTC (link)

I think the reason why "baby" bugged so many people before is that it's not something most versions of Batman would say. Batman generally tends not to use that much slang, and sometimes speaks quite formally, I find.

What's interesting is that most versions of Batman have him too emotionally crippled for him to even use terms of endearment (y'know, beyond calling Robin "old chum").

But this is ASBAR, and the Goddamn Batman proved he is beyond predictable speech patterns in this universe!

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mysteryfan
2009-05-10 07:55 pm UTC (link)

:)
What's interesting is that most versions of Batman have him too emotionally crippled for him to even use terms of endearment (y'know, beyond calling Robin "old chum").

I never thought about it that way, and OMG, that's interesting to think about. He did before YO, but he doesn't now.
Wish I could do a creepy font for this, but:

In part, because of Frank Miller.
/creepy font.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	parsimonia 2009-05-10 08:19 pm UTC (link)
	I am suddenly imagining a Mortal Kombat-like scenario: Frank Miller vs. Frank Miller! Round one: FIGHT! (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	mysteryfan 2009-05-10 08:21 pm UTC (link)
	Ohmigod. My mind is trying to process this. It is not easy. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	parsimonia 2009-05-10 08:22 pm UTC (link)
	"Who would tear of whose head first?", is the question I think you are pondering. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	mysteryfan 2009-05-10 08:23 pm UTC (link)
	I want them to have a debate-off. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	kingrockwell 2009-05-10 10:06 pm UTC (link)
	We need a time machine, stat! (Reply to this) (Parent)

	benicio127 2009-05-11 08:50 am UTC (link)
	Are we talking 80s Miller vs. 2000s Miller? Coz while 80s Miller produced greater quality of work, 2000s Miller would totally tear 80s Miller's head off. "I'm the GODDAMN FRANK MILLER!! FINISH HIM!!!" (Reply to this) (Parent)

	runespoor7 2009-05-10 08:07 pm UTC (link)
	Would "Jay" count as a term of endearment? (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

parsimonia
2009-05-10 08:21 pm UTC (link)

Hmm. Well, it's a nickname, and he doesn't use those very often either. (I mean, "Dick" is a nickname for Richard, but most people call him Dick, so I don't think that counts.)

I wouldn't call it a term of endearment, but the fact that he called Jason by a nickname does show a kind of open affection that Batman does not express consistently in all his relationships.

There a few instances of him calling Cass "Cassie", too. But that might just be writer-silliness, I'm not too sure.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	mysteryfan 2009-05-10 08:30 pm UTC (link)
	He used to use 'son' a lot for Dick. It was nice. But that was before Miller's Year One. I would absolutely love to know if he's ever used it since. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

parsimonia
2009-05-10 08:54 pm UTC (link)

You know what I love, in contrast? How Jim Gordon calls every guy he likes (who is younger than him) "son". Even Batman on occasion, I think. Young newbie cops, Dick, Tim, Jason, Jason Bard even in Batgirl: Year One, I believe.

(Of course, it's not as common to call a girl you know "daughter" in the same way as "son" is, and calling a female cop a term of endearment could potentially be perceived as condescending or inappropriate. But he is also very kind, warm and encouraging to young women as well, Babs obviously, but Renee Montoya and Jamie Harper too.)

I don't think it's ever really been explored all that much in the comics, but I always like the fact that Commissioner Gordon is this kind, solid, dependable, fatherly figure in the lives of all the bat-folk.

I think I read a ficlet once where Dick is Robin and was out on his own and injured his leg a little bit, and needs to look after it sooner rather than later (though it's not very serious). So he sheepishly pops into Jim's office at the police station, and of course Jim gets out the first aid kit, helps him and sends him safely on his way. I find it really sweet that the Robins can have this alternative safe haven with Jim if they ever needed it.

(Which is one of the reasons why the first issue of Battle for the Cowl bugged me, because Nightwing just brushes off Jim's offer to talk. It seems kind of unnatural that Dick would be so closed off with someone who's known him since he was a kid, who was close with Batman, and who would readily comfort him. I mean, I know the secret identity issue always puts a barrier between Jim and most of the Bats, but after NML there is just no pretending that there isn't some love within those relationships.)

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	parsimonia 2009-05-10 08:58 pm UTC (link)
	Actually, exception to the "younger guys he likes" rule, though: Harvey Bullock. But he's more of a rough-around-the-edges kind of guy, and closer in age to Jim, that it might not be appropriate there. (Reply to this) (Parent)

runespoor7
2009-05-11 10:37 am UTC (link)

In BftC, though, it makes sense for the Dick reaction Daniel set up that Nightwing wouldn't want to talk; he's supposed to be closed off and distant and stuff, so... Actually, I could imagine Dick not wanting to talk about Bruce's death anyway, either because of the secret identity issue either because he might be in denial.

There's a couple of comics where Jim's uncertainty regarding the Robin issue is explored, too. It's always nice to realize that there's less fucked-up of an authority/moral figure in Gotham than Alfred - who, you know, may not be Bruce-level of weird but was still pimping Tim as the new Robin.

I've read a couple of fantastic fics which explored the connection between Jim and Cass, too, and that was lovely. It's a shame that it wasn't used in canon, because there's a lot of potential there; saving him was her Establishing Character Moment, why wouldn't they have a connection?

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