InsaneJournal

Tweak says, "Just a little too slow!"

bunniegrrl (bunniegrrl) wrote in scans_daily,
@ 2009-08-20 14:10:00

Entry tags:

char: batgirl/cassandra cain, char: robin/nightwing/dick grayson, char: robin/red robin/tim drake, title: batgirl

Batgirl #1 Reactions
A couple fan reactions to Batgirl #1, and a page of Gotham Knights for legality.

Truth is, it sucks to be a Cassandra Cain fan... or to be Cassandra Cain, for that matter

Photobucket

(Post a new comment)

	scottyquick 2009-08-20 02:29 pm UTC (link)
	The last one made my snort with laughter. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	jaybee3 2009-08-20 02:38 pm UTC (link)
	I loved the last one - if only because it makes Beechan's "suddenly able to read and written in fluent Navajo" Cass look even more ridiculous. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	gothamsprincess 2009-08-20 02:39 pm UTC (link)
	I love Cass's happy expression in the last panel. (Reply to this)

	sistermagpie 2009-08-20 02:41 pm UTC (link)
	Poor Cass. I love the one where she's shivering on the roof, what with randomly pulling off all her clothes and leaving them behind for Steph. Where did Cass even go after that? Where does she live? What is she going to do? (Reply to this) (Thread)

	kingrockwell 2009-08-20 10:28 pm UTC (link)
	If you look closer at it, that one really skeeves me out. The horrified look on her face, and what appear to be cuts all over her body? D: (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	bluefall 2009-08-20 11:17 pm UTC (link)
	Eh, it's just scars. Cass being a scarred mess is one of her consistent visual markers, like Barbara's glasses or Clark's spitcurl. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	kingrockwell 2009-08-20 11:32 pm UTC (link)
	Even so, the image still reeks of rape imagery. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	starwolf_oakley 2009-08-20 02:47 pm UTC (link)
	Slightly serious question: While it's known Cass can't read, did any of the BATGIRL issues established she also has dyslexia? I don't know why I thought that might be the case. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	aegof.livejournal.com 2009-08-20 03:13 pm UTC (link)
	Sort of? Near the end of the series, Babs did Science and figured out that Cass' brain handles communication all weird, so learning letters is going to be super hard using normal methods. (Reply to this) (Parent)

parsimonia
2009-08-20 03:28 pm UTC (link)

Yeah, at one point Barbara did a scan of Cass's brain and found that instead of having a centralized language centre, it was spread out all over the place. I don't know if that matches anything to do with regular non-comic book dyslexia, but I think it was stated that because she grew up without verbal (or written) language, she didn't develop the communication centres of her brain the same way most people do, and as a result she has trouble processing written information.

Something like that, and to simplify things one could call it dyslexia.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

	parsimonia 2009-08-20 03:01 pm UTC (link)
	LMAO that last one is perfect. (Reply to this)

	frostedone 2009-08-20 03:03 pm UTC (link)
	Who drew these? They are good. Especially number 3. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	bunniegrrl 2009-08-20 03:14 pm UTC (link)
	First one, I don't know, second one just calls himself JDL, third one just calls himself "the Doomzula artist". (Reply to this) (Parent)

lencannon
2009-08-20 03:08 pm UTC (link)

Having finally read the "offending" issue this morning, I have to say it was actually a really fun story. I do think Cassandra's quitting was extremely abrupt and ill-explained within the context of the comic. However, the rest of the story was fun. There were a few patches of spotty text (mostly in the thought boxes) but I think it's a good start for the ongoing.

Anyways, I don't think you've seen the last of Cass in this series. I think it is good to be fans of a character and follow them but I think you are letting your love of Cassandra Cain (whose entire story is kind of fucked to hell and back at the moment) overshadow what I think is going to be a really exciting new series.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

bunniegrrl
2009-08-20 03:13 pm UTC (link)

I don't agree with you.
It seems to me that there have been three Batgirls (more or less).
This had all three show up, and guess what? Babs and Cass were both mangled.
They're putting Spoiler in the costume, but they're simultaneously showing us that when it comes to Batgirls, the characters tend to get screwed over.

If they can't be bothered to give us a good portrayal of the previous two Batgirls, why should I put any emotional investment into the new one?

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	punishermax 2009-08-20 03:20 pm UTC (link)
	I might disagree that Babs was mangled. I mean, on some level she was sort of fridged (God I hate that term), but damn, it was an ALAN MOORE story, if that's any consolation. Plus, Oracle kicks ass and is waaaaayyy cooler than Batgirl. Cass...well Cass did kinda get mangled. But I've got hope. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

bunniegrrl
2009-08-20 03:29 pm UTC (link)

Sure, Oracle's been written as a super confident, extremely capable, very useful, and ultimately content female heroine... in the past.

But what I meant was that she was mangled in this very story, which continues the recent trend of portraying her as a bitter, angry, self-loathing grouch. She's been handled very poorly recently, even dismantling the Birds of Prey for reasons as utterly moronic as Cassandra's "I did it for Bruce" explanation for giving up on Batgirl.

They canceled BoP, in a way that did injustice to its star.

They canceled the last Batgirl series, in a way that did injustice to its star.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	punishermax 2009-08-20 03:31 pm UTC (link)
	AAaaah, I see. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	starwolf_oakley 2009-08-20 04:48 pm UTC (link)
	They canceled the last Batgirl series, in a way that did injustice to its star. If you mean the Beechen series, that was always supposed to be a limited series to explain the "Womens is crazy!" Cass from ROBIN #150 and TEEN TITANS. The original series... Yeah, still not sure the deal there. Unless Cass "killing" Lady Shiva "resolved" her story. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

jaybee3
2009-08-20 05:33 pm UTC (link)

How close was the cancellation of her series to Infinite Crisis? It's been a few years so I forget. If it was anywhere near when IC came out then DC had obviously already planned on making Cass a villain - which would explain the cancellation. Beechan screwed up the Hows and Whys because he did no research (seemingly) but it was DC Editorial that gave him the directive to make her Robin's arch-enemy.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	scottyquick 2009-08-20 06:08 pm UTC (link)
	It was absolutely related to IC. Gabrych's run ended in a way where a good writer could have made Cass an adversary to Tim. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	starwolf_oakley 2009-08-20 10:49 pm UTC (link)
	Her series was canceled during INFINITE CRISIS. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	sistermagpie 2009-08-20 05:13 pm UTC (link)
	They do both come across very similarly. When Cass randomly handed over her clothing and walked away I totally thought of the disbanding of the BoP for little reason. It's hard not to feel like it's just an editorial mandate that they didn't feel needed to be explained believably. I mean, compare it to Tim taking off for Red Robin. That I completely understand. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	mysteryfan 2009-08-20 08:40 pm UTC (link)
	Random (female) character stripping and walking away. It's hard not to feel like it's just an editorial mandate that they didn't feel needed to be explained believably. Agreed. And agreed it feels a lot like BoP. I hope she goes undercover to solve the mystery of where Bruce is. (Reply to this) (Parent)

wizardru
2009-08-20 03:35 pm UTC (link)

I think that when he says that Babs was mangled, he meant AS ORACLE. My takeaway was the Babs was mishandled here in comparison to her characterizations both in 'Birds of Prey' and as recently as 'Blackest Night', where we have Babs saying she's just happy with the life she's built, thanks for asking. The Babs here is ANGRY, while the Babs there was RESOLUTE.

It's impressive to look back at the crippling of Babs and how it went from being such a big negative to such a big positive in the ensuing 20 years. Instead of killing the character, it feels that in most ways, it allowed her to step out of Bats' shadow and become a fully-realized and strong character.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

	mysteryfan 2009-08-20 08:36 pm UTC (link)
	Babs also got turned from a woman to a child post-crisis. Which... you know. Not THE most supportive thing to do to a character. (Reply to this) (Parent)

lencannon
2009-08-20 07:33 pm UTC (link)

Honestly, I don't think Cassandra was in the book enough to be "mangled" and Barbara seemed in character enough to me. Certainly in at or about the same state of mind she was at the end of BoP. Now, you can certainly dislike that turn her character has taken but it is a lose/lose situation for a writer. If he just creates the version he wants, he gets yelled at for ignoring continuity and he's clearly demonized for writing the character he's been given.

The truth is, I am a bigger fan of Batman's supporting cast than I am of Batman. Or more specifically, Bruce Wayne. Dick and Tim and Selina and Cassandra and Stephanie and the Huntress and a bunch of others really draw me into these series of books. But I think I would literally go crazy if I got completely out of shape of every character moment that wasn't "optimal" for me. The closest I got was when Spoiler was dead in the first place and they fixed that eventually.

Give it time, I think. And try and let your preconceived notions of what your perfect character should be go. At the end of the day, this is still worlds better than Cass being a murderninja who just hates everyone. Two pages of (relatively) cogent and actually reasonably happy Cassandra are infinitely better than 12 months of psychobitch.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

lencannon
2009-08-20 07:42 pm UTC (link)

For the record, this was a quote from Miller on Newsarama

"Miller, who came to comic books through his job as a writer for TV's Smallville, started at DC with a fill-in arc on Teen Titans before being announced as the writer on the new Batgirl series. Part of this summer's relaunch of all the "Bat" titles after the death of Bruce Wayne, Batgirl sets up former "Spoiler" Stephanie as the girl in the costume, but also include a supporting cast that includes former Batgirls Barbara Gordon and Cassandra Cain."

So, I think it is safe to say we'll see some character growth for both of them and some people are getting really angry at a setup that could fix some problems rather than create them. I think this is a good cast featuring three of my favorite batman-universe characters and I want to support.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	bluefall 2009-08-20 10:20 pm UTC (link)
	I think it is safe to say we'll see some character growth for both of them It doesn't actually qualify as "growth" if it starts from a massive regression. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

lencannon
2009-08-20 10:57 pm UTC (link)

What do you want? This isn't a rhetorical question. They can't really ignore what happened in major books that came out within the last year. The reaction is actually a little frustrating because it seems like there are no options available to not make fans flip their lids.

There's a book on the market DEVOTED to Stephanie Brown, Cassandra Cain, and Barbara Gordon. Scans daily favorites all. If we can't let them slog through the remains of some bad stories and enjoy it, I honestly think we're the problem this time and not DC.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

bluefall
2009-08-20 11:11 pm UTC (link)

They can't really ignore what happened in major books that came out within the last year.

Actually, they absolutely can. This month, a book came out, a major book that will have probably six times as many readers as Batgirl if not more, in which Babs said, strong, resolved and happy, "I love my life, every day." Johns was just like, "Hey, Babs isn't emo, Dixon and Simone just spent a decade evolving her out of that. So that's what I'm going to write." He totally, completely, and cheerfully ignored or dismissed the bullshit of the ORACLE mini and the crap ending of BoP, and wrote the character properly.

Just like the writers and editors responsible for said mini totally, completely and cheerfully ignored or dismissed everything that Dixon and Simone had done.

Not giving a shit about continuity or recent character behavior is sort of a mainstay of modern comics writing. Yet for some reason, it only ever seems to apply when somebody wants to write a character badly. When it comes time to gloss over all the crap and just write the good stuff, suddenly it's all "oh no, we gotta respect continuity, we gotta work with the story as it stands now." I call bullshit. If Beechen isn't required to respect anything Puckett or Gabyrich did, Miller isn't required to respect anything Beechen or Vanhook did.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

	kingrockwell 2009-08-20 11:34 pm UTC (link)
	"They can't really ignore what happened in major books that came out within the last year." Ask Richard Dragon about that one sometime. (Reply to this) (Parent)

icon_uk
2009-08-20 03:41 pm UTC (link)

I think the issue I have with it is "Steph is Batgirl.... so what?"

I never hugely cared for her as Spoiler, where she was shown as being a fairly competent standard street level vigilante, but was quite fun as a supporting character. She differed from her contemporary, Robin, by being "unauthorised" by Batman (As Helena was sort of an "unauthorised" Nightwing).

Cass was different from any previous Batclan inductee by virtue of her being uniquely, insanely talented as a fighter. (I still say Batman approving someone who is illiterate as a Gotham protector was just a "Hell no" moment for me, but that's just me) Regardless of anything else, she could cope with just about any combat situation she was in.

Steph isn't the acrobat Dick or Babs were, isn't as smart as Tim was, and certainly isn't the fighter Cass was. She's the most, and I use the term respectfully here, "average" of the Gotham heroes. The least naturally geared and trained towards the role.

So having been a vaguely okay hero as Spoiler and a pointlessly short lived Robin, why should I care more about her as Batgirl? What does she bring to the role that makes it worth the reading? I'm not sure I see it yet, nor can I honestly say I feel inspired to check it out to find out.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	scottyquick 2009-08-20 03:48 pm UTC (link)
	Not just you, Dinah was all "The fuck?" when she found out Cass couldn't read. (Reply to this) (Parent)

daningram
2009-08-20 05:20 pm UTC (link)

That's what confuses me too. From what I've gathered, there's been no real effort in the book to introduce Steph as her own character. They're clearly relying on her past fanbase to carry the issue. But by placing her in Batgirl's costume, they needlessly provoke Cass fans and damn, have they wasted alot of pointless promotion on her.

This whole setup hardly seems like it's well thought out at all.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

jaybee3
2009-08-20 05:40 pm UTC (link)

I don't think Steph has a big enough fanbase to carry her own book. If she had she would have been Robin longer than she was and wouldn't have been so casually killed off. The "Batgirl" title however will bring in curious readers though. Personally, the whole "Who is Batgirl" mystery to bump up out of the gate sales reminds me of movie studios that don't let reviewers see their movies in time for a Friday opening because they know it's a stinker.

This has nothing to do with Steph herself. Or even the quality of the book which will eventually become obvious but just in the way DC's rolled this out makes me think they were not as confident about the new Batgirl as they have publicly stated.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	daningram 2009-08-20 05:51 pm UTC (link)
	Yeah, agreed. Compare the time Steph spent dead to the time Cass spent evil. It's obvious that Cass has the stronger fanbase, especially when you consider that Steph had the editors on her side and Cass has them against her. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	mysteryfan 2009-08-20 08:33 pm UTC (link)
	Somebody else can and will correct me if I'm wrong, but her only being Robin for a short time didn't really have to do with fanbase. I believe it was editorial mandate. Conversely, her return did have a lot to do with fans, both, I'd imagine of her and of female characters not getting fridged. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	bluefall 2009-08-20 11:14 pm UTC (link)
	Steph!Robin was Willingham's call. According to him, it was his way of trying to give her sort of a consolation prize for War Games - she was about to get shat on and killed, but at least she'd get to be Robin first. I think it was more about upping the "impact" of War Games myself, but then I'm a cynic. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

mysteryfan
2009-08-20 11:41 pm UTC (link)

I think it was more about upping the "impact" of War Games myself, but then I'm a cynic.

What a crazy world, if comics would fridge a female hero, or say... kill her sexily with a power drill at all, much less give her a really big new role as one of the longest-standing comic icons right before killing her with said power drill in a huge crossover event...

I meant, too, and maybe I got confused about what I was commenting on, but that killing Stephanie was an editorial decision. Right?

(Reply to this) (Parent)

	stolisomancer 2009-08-20 10:37 pm UTC (link)
	Eh, it just means that if the book approaches cancellation, they can bring back Cass as a Hail Mary. (Reply to this) (Parent)

xlineartx
2009-08-20 07:00 pm UTC (link)

I think Steph's special gift is perspective. She keeps the other bats grounded in reality and really should be spending more time with the boys. She's also straightforward and very personable--with Nightwing out of the picture, she's the friendliest and most approachable Bat. I really think Robin would've been a much better role for her, since it would give her the training she desperately needs and also keep Dick from drowning in his angst.

I also think that with more training, she'll be a better fighter than Tim.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

lyraeinne
2009-08-20 09:11 pm UTC (link)

Well I know it isn't for everyone, but I think it's that "averageness" that makes Steph a compelling character for me in the first place. It's pretty clear that however much she tries, she could easily train for the rest of her life and never be anywhere close to the functioning hero that Bruce, Dick, Tim, or Cass already is. With far less time and training, any or all of them can and do outclass her on almost every level, and I think no one is more aware of that than Steph herself.

But rather than accepting her limitations and giving up like any rational person probably would by this point, she continually pushes herself to be better anyway, even knowing she'll never quite make it, and in spite of having virtually no support or encouragement from anyone else, least of all her prospective allies. If handled correctly, I think she has some potential in the role for that reason alone.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

toasty_fresh
2009-08-20 11:21 pm UTC (link)

Actually, that's just why I don't like her sometimes, lol. Sometimes the tenacity is endearing, but after a point you're just wondering why the heck she's still doing what she's doing if she's not that good at it and doesn't get a lot of support. There are so many other ways for her to be spending her time and helping the community, but instead she's risking her life unnecessarily, and that attitude can get annoying for me.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

retro_nouveau
2009-08-20 04:12 pm UTC (link)

Well, need to get this tonight. I must see context! My only rage is that Steph and Cass aren't bromantic buds again (well, that and Red Robin kicks Steph in the gut and sends her away).

I see no drama here. Steph likes playing dress-up-like-people-you-love for a while, simple as that. Cass will get her costume back ~~stretched out a little here and there~~ when Steph's ready for the eggplant pants again. I mean, Steph's Batgirl but still thinks in purple captions.

I think Cass should hang out with Jason and keep him out of trouble until they come back into the fold.
Jason: Aha, people that need killin'...
Cass: No.
Jason: What do you mean, "no"? What are you going to do about --
*BAP* *THUNK* *SLAM*
Jason: Ok, I see your point.

Now I want to see Batgirl with a two-foot-long blonde ponytail... XD

(Reply to this)

kd_the_movie
2009-08-20 08:14 pm UTC (link)

Even the method of how Cass got ejected from the role was sloppy, it's best for her. The end of Cass's ongoing pretty much did the exact same thing as Batgirl #1 (albiet Cass had different reasons for moving on), it's just that no writer knew what to do with it.

I've always felt that ever since her run's been over, Cass (AND JASON!!!) need to be as far away from the Bat-verse as possible ( i've been creating a pitch for a Secret Six-esque book with her, Jason, and a few others for several years but alas, i'm not a pro. writer) to really mature as characters.

But otherwise, i'm happy that Cass is done with the batgirl thing, it just depends on where they're going to take her next.

But....I really don't like Steph and I don't really know what DC's trying to do with this.

(Reply to this)