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The antagonism between Severus and Harry - intended or not?

The World of Severus Snape

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The antagonism between Severus and Harry - intended or not?

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Several different lines of argument are used to explain why Severus is behaving in ways that Harry takes as hostile. One is that Severus had to act this way to maintain his cover as Death Eater: That when Voldemort returned Severus could point to his treatment of Harry as evidence that he remained a true DE and was never influenced by Dumbledore's agenda (and this would be supported by the testament of sons of DEs in his class if needed). A different argument is that Severus has strict and demanding standards (both academic and behavioral) as a teacher and Harry repeatedly fails those, thus bringing upon himself sarcasm, wrath, loss of points and detentions, as the case may be. And of course the argument more common among non-fans of Severus, that from the moment Severus saw the physical resemblance between Harry and his father Severus started taking on Harry his unreconciled enmity towards James (whether consciously or unconsciously).

This relationship becomes mutually hostile and results in Harry and his friends mistrusting Severus time and again - when they thought he was cursing Harry's broom and trying to steal the Philosophers' Stone, in the Shrieking Shack in POA, when they went to the Ministry in OOTP despite having already delivered him what should have been a sufficient warning to the Order and when Harry suspects Severus is a party to Draco's plot in HBP (well, he was in a way, but not how Harry expected). Severus' outburst in the Shrieking Shack ("... I have just saved your neck; you should be thanking me on bended knee!...") shows that Severus was offended by this state of affairs, he really expected to be trusted by Harry.

If Severus' behavior was strategic, intending to act the DE part - why would he expect Harry to trust him? Or is it that since their relationship already had a hostile start (whether because of Harry's conduct as a student or because of Severus' unsettled account with James) Severus decided to use it as part of his justification to Voldemort and the DEs (as we see him do with Bellatrix in HBP)? Did Severus expect Harry, perhaps with the aid of more trusted authority figures such as Minerva or Albus, to see the protection beyond the wrath and snark?

How does Albus fit in? In the early books he contributes to the distrust between the two - in PS he says Severus saved Harry so he could hate James' memory in peace, in POA he blames Severus for the need to make a daring rescue of Sirius. But later Albus reassures Harry that Severus was never suspected with any Dark activity since the first war (GOF), tells him how Severus warned the Order and searched for Harry and his friends in the forest, refrains from mentioning Severus' part in the matter of the prophecy until Harry learns of it himself (OOTP vs HBP) and tells Harry again and again that he trusts Professor Snape (HBP). Yet in OOTP he also says he expected Severus to have gotten over the past enough to teach Harry Occlumency successfully. So did Albus initially think he was supporting Severus' cover story but changed gears when he saw things were going badly? Or was he deliberately preventing the reconciliation of undesired hostility because it served his own plots?
  • The moment Draco gave up on the attempt to kill Albus the third clause of the Unbreakable Vow kicked in (which is why it was impossible to expel or suspend Draco that year), so Severus had to do it ASAP regardless of circumstances and audience. If anything it was Albus who forced Harry to be the witness. Albus knew before he left the school that Draco was going to make his move that night and he knowingly took Harry with him.

    As for delivering the message - the trigger to deliver it was that Nagini be protected. The first time Severus saw Nagini under protection was already in the Shrieking Shack. We do not know if Severus made alternative arrangement - in any case his preference was to do it in person. But the message would have been delivered regardless of whether Severus prepared an alternate route of his own - via Albus' portrait and the other castle portraits if not by any other means. (Albus could move about the castle portrait frames until he could contact a ghost or a house-elf and tell them to tell Harry to meet him somewhere.) The only problem with that method would be that Albus would have had to face Harry before Harry could know he was going to survive, and that's a huge inconvenience to the Twinkly One. As headmaster Severus knew what the portraits were capable of, so he may have figured it out himself. But he preferred the direct and personal route because it allowed him to apologize to Harry via his memories.

    (BTW summeriris, you may be interested in my latest attempts to untangle the mess that was Albus' endgame plan here).
    • Oryx I,m going to have to ask you to be patient in waiting for my reply. My ISP server is giving me major problems. As I type this I'm hitchhiking on my downstairs neighbour's broadband. (With their permission) but I don't have much time. I'm hoping that I'll be back to normal tomorrow, but I can't guarantee it. As soon as I'm back to normal, I'll reply.
      summeriris
    • HI, stll hitchhiking on the neighbour's broadband, but it's early this side of the pond, so it's OK.
      Back to your comment above. Yes, I know the trigger was to be when Nagini was in magical proection. That's plain enough. Now this isn't a poke at Snape, it's just an observation. Snape does not seem to have had a plan in place for when this happened. The times were perilous to say the least and Snape could not gaurantee his own safety never mind anyone elses. I think he should have had a plan in place, just in case. This has nothing to do with whether Snape was a good/bad man. I just think that there should have been a plan, just in case the worst happened.
      • I ask because I'm curious: What sort of plan do you envision him as having, if he theoretically had/could have had one? How much of the situation (start of Nagini's protection, Harry's location at that time, etc.) could he really foresee well enough to plan anything out? Harry obviously wasn't going to come to him, the portrait was blindfolded and so rather hampered, and Voldemort doesn't seem to be in the habit of telling people his plans in detail ahead of time. Literally all he knew was that the moment he found out about Nagini, he should find Harry and tell him the necessary info. Which is exactly what he attempted to do. How much beyond that could he have known in time to plan?

        If you're referring to a plan about how to communicate with Harry so that he would trust him and not shoot on sight: there's nothing to say he didn't have a plan ready that was interrupted by events (i.e. Voldemort deciding to murder him then and there, having to converse while bleeding to death) beyond his control and, given his incomprehension at Voldie's questions, also quite likely beyond anything he would have thought to expect. That is, he knew he was in a perilous position, but had no clue about the Elder Wand and therefore that Voldie would plan on killing him for it *while believing him still faithful.* By far the greatest dangers he expected to face (and so plan for) were 1) suspicion or discovery by Voldie, and 2) death by Order member or Harry himself.

        As for plans to get the info to Harry in case of his own death: 1) I believe Oryx is correct that Dumbles would have made certain to get the info to him, something Severus almost certainly also would have believed to be the case, and 2) we see so little of Snape's activities during that time that there really is no evidence he did NOT have a such a plan B (absence of evidence being no evidence of absence). Harry did receive the info from him before he died, within a very short space of time from the moment Snape realized the possibility of his imminent death - so if there was say an automatic backup or something he could trigger remotely, it/he had little time to trigger and then it was unnecessary. So we don't see it.

        All this is not to say he DID have a plan, just to point out that it is about equally possible/likely that he did or did not. JKR doesn't show us everything he does, just the minimal bits relevant to filling the reader and Harry in on what actually did happen. Statements that he did or did not have a plan B are all equally pure supposition.
        • Well I think something more definite than hoping and praying was called for. Let me turn it around, do you think that there was more Snape could have done to protect the message and to ensure that Harry would receive it and believe it? I'm not saying that Snape deliberate failed to get the message to Harry or to try and get the message to Harry, I'm saying this information is not in canon. If something is not in the canon, it's not part of the books. Now the explanation may be as simple as a plot hole, something that Rowling just omitted to put in. But it is so important to the plot, that I cannot believe that she overlooked it. Yes, I do believe that Snape could have done more to ensure the message would be delivered at the correct time, but I'm not the author and I can't change what she wrote. So while I may think that Snape should have been shown enlisting someone in the school like McGonagal or even Slughorn I can't write that into the story. It's not my story. I am puzzled by this seemingly large lack of logic. Perhaps there is something in the books that explains it, but I haven't come across anything yet. I am bearing in mind that Snape's actions are dictated by his creator. Snape actually can only do what she has written in the books for him to do. I think this is something that at the present time we can only speculate about and hope it is cleared up when Rowling publishes her encyclopedia. She is the only person who knows why Snape did as he did.
          • No, I can't say that there was *or that there was not* more that he could have done, because as you say we simply *don't get this information.* We don't see scenes of Snape thinking about his mission and deciding what to do or not do, we only see highly selected bits of action directly related to events that actually played out (placing the sword, conversations with Dumbles about the Harrycrux and planning his death.) There is no failure *or* lack of failure to ensure the message was passed on because only those actions of Snape's *directly related to how he DID pass on the info* are given. ANYTHING could have happened in between those scenes. For all we know Snape could have set up multiple failsafes involving owls, charmed letters, and what have you, but Snape had no reason to give Harry those memories because events didn't play out that way and time was short. (The man was dying, after all.) So he didn't include them and so we don't see them.

            Perhaps he *did* do something more in JKR's head, but she did not show it to us because it is not *relevant* to what actually happened. Given her intense concentration on Harry this is not surprising, but also I don't personally think it's a plot hole/lack of logic because the information is simply irrelevant to understanding the actual events of the plot as it played out. It's useful only for characterization purposes, and JKR doesn't go out of her way to provide us extra info on Snape during these scenes. It's all about explaining why he does what he does in a way Harry can accept. So I disagree that one can state that all that Snape did was hope and pray. We simply *don't know* what he did or did not do beyond what we actually see. There is no concrete evidence one way or the other. That we don't see these other concrete things being shown is due to the fact that they ceased to matter during the scene in the Shack, our POV was restricted to what Harry could have known, and Snape would I imagine have thought info about such moot points quite unnecessary to pass on during his death agony.

            (Also, again, you refer to "something more definite," but I'm still wondering what specifically you envision here. So far as I can see there was very little in the way of concrete, definite things he could have done, given all the variables outside his control and his unavoidable reliance on finding out what others were doing in time to do anything himself.)

            As to Harry believing the message, again, what specifically would you have him do that we don't see? What particular actions? So far as events actually played out: he gave Harry direct memories of all relevant conversations with Dumbles (i.e. enough for Harry to understand where the info came from, what he had to do, where the doe came from as evidence of trustworthiness, and why Snape killed Dumbles), gave him several highly personal and painful memories explaining his relationship with Lily and his motivations for the course of his entire adult life, and urged the boy with virtually his last breath to take the memories. Beyond that he could not ensure anyway because he was *dying.*

            So far as events could have played out differently: again, we don't see anything *one way or another* about what he did or did not do or plan to do upon meeting Harry because 1) Voldie interrupted, 2) time was extremely short (dying), and therefore 3) only the truly necessary information for Harry to do what he needed to do was passed on. Everything else stayed inside Snape's head, including all those possible memories of planning out future conversations, writing charmed letters, or what have you. It's not a plot hole because it's not necessary for understanding the actual events that did occur or for motivating Harry. It all became a moot issue the moment Nagini stuck her fangs in Snape's throat, time shortened to minutes, and Harry showed up. All those possible plans ceased to be relevant because they would not play out anyway, so Snape (and thus JKR) did not include them.
            • Yes, ' something more definite', is very indefinite. This point has always bothered me. I just hope it gets addressed in the Scottish Book. I find speculating fun, but when it comes to important plot points I prefer an answer.
              • Why is it an important plot point for you, can I ask? I simply don't see why it's important for the *plot* to know what Severus might or might not have planned on doing in circumstances that did not arise. It's important perhaps for characterizing Snape, nothing more. Snape and JKR gave Harry and us what was important for understanding/reacting appropriately to the plot events that did play out, and the logic of the situation in the Shack makes it understandable to me that Snape gave only this highly selective information.

                I also seem to have not been clear enough, sorry: the 'something more definite' that I'm curious about is not about what JKR might envision, it's about what specifically *you* envision that Snape *could have* actually done in his planning when you talk about what seems to you to be his actual failure to plan. Because I don't see that he could have done much under the circumstances, and I am curious how you think he could have done more - what actions exactly he could have supposedly taken or planned to take, given the way so many things were outside his control. If one is going to accuse him of failing to take an action, one must have some idea of a possible action he could have taken or planned to take, yes? This is where I wonder what you personally would have liked to see him do, beyond the indefinite idea of 'make plans.'

                Where I'm coming from, to be clear: thinking about *theoretical* possibilities for Snape to plan anything, I think he had very limited options because most key things (including timing) were beyond his control. Finding Potter the moment he discovered Nagini's protection, showing him the Patronus, and explaining or using a Pensieve to convince Potter of his true role was about all he could expect to be able to do.

                But this is purely theoretical, since we are given *highly selected information* about the relevant time and his actions and plans then. Therefore I don't think one can make any sort of yes/no, verifiable statement about his failure or not-failure to plan; at most we can say that we don't know because we have no information. The cat is neither alive nor dead until the box is opened, and Severus neither planned nor did not plan until there is a statement or scene in canon establishing this. And we don't get one because it's not IMHO relevant to JKR's plot, just as what Snape did during the decade before Harry arrived at Hogwarts is not relevant and so is passed over. Everything we say regarding his plans or lack of plans and possibilities to plan is purely theoretical, purely supposition that is unverifiable one way or another.
                • OK, this is not an attack on your theories, so do not jump on me. The problem That I have with these probable theories is that when Snape had his one chance to take them, he did not. This is when he faces McGonagal in the school hallways. I think Snape knows that Harry is close by, I think the hairs on the back of his neck were probably standing on end, but instead of surrendering to McGonagal, and he could have, he chooses to use magic to defend himself. Notice I am not saying that he is attacking her in any way, because he's not. But neither is he saying, as Remus did in the Shrieking Shack scene in POA, "Here's my wand, I cannot fight you." Now Nagini is in the magical cage by then, has been since Voldemort realised his Horcruxes are being destroyed. Snape's knows he has to get the message to Harry, and here is an opportunity to at least tell someone he knows is 100% trustworthy about it. And he runs away instead of doing that very thing. This has always bothered me. I know that you will probably say that he didn't know if Nagini was in the cage for sure, but we don't know he didn't know either. I think he did know because he had to keep in touch with Voldemort on a constant level because this was something that he had to keep tabs on. Sometimes you have to take a chance that even if things are not 100% the way you would want them. Harry goes to the Forest even though he knows that Nagini is not dead. He knows that both Ron and Hermione know she has to be killed and he takes the further opportunity to tell Neville to kill her if he goes the chance. Snape doesn't take any opportunity to speak to McGonagal and I think he should have told her to at least to get Harry to the headmaster's office so that Dumbledore's portrait could have told Harry. Oryx you make a good point about Snape's Patronus but the problem I see there is that anyone can conjure a Patronus with the Patronus Charm. Umbridge has a perfectly beautiful one. Can you really see Harry believing anything that came out of Umbridge's Patronus' mouth. The same problem exists with Snape's. The moment Harry realised that it was Snape's Patronus he would have discounted it. The Patronus is a reflection of the caster's personality and Harry did not trust Snape. Whether you believe that Harry should have trusted Snape, or as I do that Snape gave Harry no opportunity to ever trust him is beside the point. For good or ill, Harry DID not trust him and that was the reality that Snape had to deal with. My problem is that I don't see Snape making any effort to deal with it, but then it may just be my problem. Anyway, I'm going to read throught that section again and do some research and see what I come up with.
                  • What we know/what Severus knew

                    Yes, I wrote an AU in which Severus surrendered to McG. then. But see, in my AU Phineas Nigellus's portrait had told Dumbledore's, who'd relayed it to Snape, what Harry knew about Voldie finding the cave Horcrux gone and deciding to protect Nagini.

                    See, WE KNOW that Voldie's decided to protect Nagini and therefore (in retrospect) that the decision point Dumbledore gave Snape to tell Harry has arrived, because Harry saw it through the Scar-o-vison. But SEVERUS had no way of knowing.

                    Until he arrived in the Shack and saw Nagini in her cage, and realized he'd just MISSED HIS CHANCE. Adding to the horror of that moment for him.
                  • As Terri said, Severus did *not* know Nagini was protected until he saw her in her bubble in the Shack. Severus was at the school, Voldemort was touring the country for his Horcruxes. The only thing Severus knew was that Voldemort expected Harry to go to Ravenclaw tower and that eventually Voldemort would arrive later because one of the Carrows had summoned him through the Dark Mark. But he did not know if this was going to be their final show-down or just yet another encounter as they have had over the years. He had no way of knowing it was the time to deliver his message.

                    Regarding the Patronus - it isn't the fact that Severus could cast a Patronus that mattered, nor the aesthetics of the Patronus, but the fact that Harry would realize the moment he saw Severus casting it (whether in life or in memory) that it was Severus who had brought him the sword in the forest. Harry knows why the sword was delivered to him (even if Severus didn't) - so he could destroy Horcruxes with it. And he knew through Albus' will that it was part of the Great Plan that he have it. So whoever bothered to make the effort and track him down in a forest (where he was so hidden that even Ron only found him with the help of Albus' Deluminator) to bring him the sword that Albus wanted him to have, the sword he needed for his mission, had to be on Albus' side, and therefore on his.

                    Obviously Harry wouldn't have trusted Severus' Patronus earlier - which is why Severus doesn't let the Patronus speak. If the Patronus had said anything, however well meant, in Severus' voice the sword would have been left lying under the lake.
                    • Oryx, you're quite right, but again there is a problem. Snape threw the sword in a pool of icy water in the middle of winter for Harry to recover. I think this supposed to be because the sword has to be recovered under conditions of valour.
                      Problem 1. Harry already recovered the sword under conditions of valour. He did that in Chamber of Secrets. How many times does he have to win the darn thing?
                      Problem 2. Harry almost died trying to get that sword. Not the most conducive way to gain trust. That would cause some distrust of the Patronus. This is what I mean when I say the moment that Harry knew who the Patronus belonged to, it is entirely likely he would think Snape had tried to kill him. I know that Ron was there, but Snape didn't. Also as Harry had already won the sword, the circumstances did not warrant throwing it in the pond
                      Problem 3 My Internet is still not working and I am getting very annoyed. Oryx, I almost swore at the girl on the other end of the phone today. It's a good thing, Liz down stairs has a good service. I am so mad I could spit.
                      • Problem 1. Harry already recovered the sword under conditions of valour. He did that in Chamber of Secrets. How many times does he have to win the darn thing?

                        Each and every time, it seems, or Dumbledore wouldn't have made a point of saying so. (How did Dumbledore earn it to use on the ring? Would it not have worked for him had he not put the ring on and cursed his hand?)

                        As to problem 2: Severus' approach shows familiarity with Harry's thinking. This was the boy who got excited about Dumbledore *wanting* him to go down the Labyrinth because he had the *right* to face Voldemort. Harry approves of authority figures sending him into danger to achieve a goal he considers worthwhile.
                        • Sorry Oryx, I don't understand your point here. Dumbledore left the sword to Harry in his will. Morally the sword belonged to Harry, and he already had won it under conditions of valour. I think throwing the sword into the pond was an error on Snape's part. He just didn't plan very well when he didn't have Dumbledore to advise him. The portrait didn't have the true Dumbledore's depth of understanding. But it's a portrait and all portraits can do is echo in a faint manner what the person who is in it was like. They seem to know what that person knew up till the time of creation, but they cannot know outside of that.
                          Harry never went down a Labyrinth. He went down to the Chamber of Secrets and he went to where the Philosopher's Stone was hidden, that is true. It is also true that Dumbledore realised that Harry would need to gain practical experience in dealing with Voldemort. Dumbledore knew that Harry would need to learn fast and learn young. That knowledge could not be taught in a classroom. I think Harry learnt very fast and very young. This was a necessity as Harry had been marked by Voldemort himself as the only one who could defeat him. I'm not to sure what Snape had to do with that, to tell the truth. I know he told Voldemort the Prophecy that targeted the children who were due to be born at the end of July, but he didn't tell Voldemort who to pick.
                          Harry is very independent and fearless, he has to be to defeat Voldemort.
                          Do you mean the Maze in GOF by the Labyrinth. Dumbledore had nothing to do with Harry entering the Maze. That was Barty Crouch Jr's plan. Dumbledore had no choice in the matter, Harry had to play or die.
                          • The sword did not belong to Dumbledore, it wasn't anyone's private property, therefore Harry couldn't have gotten it that way. Including the sword in his will was merely Dumbledore's way of letting Harry know he needed it.

                            It is only your assumptions about how much the headmasters' personalities and intelligence is preserved by their portraits. Both Phineas and Albus pass the Turing Test with flying colors. If one cannot tell the difference between a conversing entity from a human intelligence then for all intent and purposes it is a human intelligence. Albus' portrait does learn information after his death - probably through conversations with Severus, or conversations Severus has with Phineas while at 12GP. (Maybe it has to do with the strength of one's magic, maybe with the time since one's death, maybe with interacting with people who knew one in life. Maybe the portraits do fade in their retention over the generations, maybe not.)

                            Harry never went down a Labyrinth

                            It's a fandom name for the obstacle course leading to the Philosophers' Stone in PS.

                            It is also true that Dumbledore realised that Harry would need to gain practical experience in dealing with Voldemort.

                            It was wrong of Dumbledore to endanger the entire student body for his training of Harry. Any student could have been killed by any of the obstacles. Any student could have been killed by the basilisk (because nobody was warned to protect their eyes). In any case, as far as Dumbledore knew until the end of GOF, Harry's role in a future confrontation with Voldemort was to walk to his death. The only training he needed was to learn not to care about his life and to learn that Albus knows best. Albus only 'saved' Harry in PS when he realized Voldemort managed to fail to kill Harry by the method he chose (any direct physical or magical attack was repelled by Lily-force though Quirrellmort could have killed Harry had he thought for instance to drop something on his head), and because Vapormort survived the death of Quirrell's body.

                          • the sword

                            (Anonymous)
                            " Dumbledore left the sword to Harry in his will. Morally the sword belonged to Harry"

                            Nonsense. It wasn't Dumbledore's to give. It was school property, not Dumbledore's property.

                            "he already had won it under conditions of valour."

                            Presumably Dumbledore knows how the sword works, and he made a point of reminding Snape that he *must* provide conditions of need and valour for Harry.

                            " I think throwing the sword into the pond was an error on Snape's part."

                            The pond was icy, but not particularly dangerous. Harry provided the danger himself by not having the brains to remove the Horcrux before going in.

                            "He just didn't plan very well when he didn't have Dumbledore to advise him. The portrait didn't have the true Dumbledore's depth of understanding."

                            It's pretty obvious that live-Dumbledore's plan required that Snape take orders from the portrait in lieu of the man. So it's Dumbledore you should be blaming. If he'd been amenable to Snape making the plans, he'd have given him enough information to make plans with.

                            "Dumbledore knew that Harry would need to learn fast and learn young. That knowledge could not be taught in a classroom."

                            Erm, no. Dumbledore knew that Harry was a Horcrux and would have to die for Voldemort to die. That's why he doesn't immediately start looking for more Horcruxes after realising in CoS that the diary wasn't the only one; he thinks he already knows perfectly well where the other is and it's so susceptible to his suggestions it will die whenever he needs it to. It's only after Voldemort tries to kill Harry in GoF that he deduces that Harry isn't the *only* other one, and starts to look for more.

                            He doesn't bother to make sure Harry learns *anything* until HBP.

                            "This was a necessity as Harry had been marked by Voldemort himself as the only one who could defeat him. I'm not to sure what Snape had to do with that, to tell the truth."

                            The reason Harry survived was that Snape loved Lily and asked Voldemort to spare her. The fact that she had a choice - she could have saved herself but chose to try to save Harry instead - turned her death from a foregone conclusion into a powerful sacrifice that rebounded on Voldemort.

                            duj
                          • Dumbledore's plans and preparations look stupider the more I think of him. Transferring the sword was a big deal because the sword had a visible place in the headmaster's office, so he went into the trouble of making a fake (or getting Severus to do so) and then waiting for Phineas to learn of Harry's location and all that. But in 6th year, why didn't he get Harry to take him down to the Chamber of Secrets and find the basilisk fang? After the Horcrux lesson he could tell Harry what the fang was good for and to carry it around.
                          • I think we all agree that no one would put the sword in a pool of icy water unless
                            (a) they were a jerk or an idiot or
                            (b) it was actually necessary.

                            You mention that portraits can only know what happened up until they were formed (unless told); the portrait was created by Hogwarts after Dumbledore's death (implied in the text and also interview canon), thus it knew everything Dumbledore knew at his death, including what had happened in Harry's first year and what Dumbledore had written in his own will.

                            From p. 689 of my American hardcover DH:

                            Phineas Nigellus came hurrying into his portrait.

                            "Headmaster! They are camping in the Forest of Dean! The Mudblood --"

                            "Do not use that word!"

                            "-- the Granger girl, then, mentioned the place as she opened her bag and I heard her!"

                            "Good. Very good!" cried the portrait of Dumbledore behind the headmaster's chair. "Now, Severus, the sword! Do not forget that it must be taken under conditions of need and valor -- and he must not know that you give it! If Voldemort should read Harry's mind and see you acting for him --"


                            So. Either
                            (a) Dumbledore said that for no reason *and* Snape is a jerk or an idiot, or
                            (b) the sword has to be taken under conditions of need and valor each and every time, and Dumbledore and Snape acted accordingly.

                            I'm gonna go with (b).
                            • Occam's razor would certainly support that choice. ;)
          • This is RE your original response to oryx, about the issue of winning Harry's trust.

            When was Severus supposed to have had the moment to win Harry's trust, and failed or chose not to try? You seem to be speaking about winning Harry's trust RE passing on the Harrycrux info in DH specifically - something Severus had absolutely no idea about half a dozen years beforehand when he first met Harry and they established their mutually hostile relationship. So obviously winning his trust with an eye towards eventually passing on the message to commit assisted suicide was not on the agenda then, or at any time before 6th year. (Winning his trust independently of this goal is another matter, but I won't repeat oryx's and others arguments about that here.)

            During 6th year, Dumbles instructed Severus not to tell Harry about the Harrycrux until the last moment, so melting the ice between them and passing on the message during 6th year was out of the question. Suddenly pursuing a friendly relationship with Harry during that year *without* the intention to pass on the message right away would have rung alarm bells in everyone's minds on both sides, given their relationship over the previous five years. It also would quite likely have backfired and caused Harry to *distrust* Snape even more after the Tower affair: he'd see it as a deliberate betrayal of himself personally, and would make him more resistant to listening to Severus later.

            He also couldn't tell Harry anything too soon (including telling him about Dumbles' plan to have Snape kill him ahead of time) because of Voldie's scar-o-vision. This includes trying to explain things during the silver doe scene, since it's not yet time for Harry to die and Snape doesn't know ahead of time when that will occur - he has only a certain cue to look for, one totally independent of anything he can control. And the greater the time ahead of Harry's scheduled demise that Snape tells him anything, the greater the chance Voldie will peek into his head and perhaps discover Snape's role. (He also has to remain at the school and attempt to subtly rein in the Carrows/appear to Voldie to be doing his job, so trailing around after Harry waiting for the right moment is not an option.)

            After the Tower affair, the scene in the Shack is the first time Snape and Harry come face to face since Dumbles' death, it doesn't occur on Snape's terms although he attempts beforehand to find Harry himself, and when Harry shows up Snape has minutes to live.

            When exactly was he supposed to win his trust in order to make sure the message would be believed?
            • "When exactly was he supposed to win his trust in order to make sure the message would be believed?"

              That could be seen as the million dollar question. I am not a great Snape fan, but even I have to admit that this is a hard row for Snape to hoe.
              • I don't see a problem. When Severus sent his Patronus to guide Harry to the sword he knew he had a memory that is verifiably recent in which he casts the same Patronus. So whenever he meets Harry and under whichever circumstances he could either cast his Patronus or show Harry that memory for Harry to understand Severus had been helping him all along. One trait of the Patronus is that it can't be faked.
                • I agree. I've always envisioned that part of Severus's original plan for when he met Harry involved casting the Patronus, and so I see no problem there in terms of gaining his trust at that time. Nor was there a point ahead of time in which Severus could have gained his trust with the specific goal of passing on the message.
              • I don't see it as a question at all; my final 'question' was rhetorical. There *was* no point between things going pear-shaped after 5th year and the meeting in the Shack when Severus even had the option (without it backfiring) of trying to win his trust. Before that he did not know of the need to pass on the suicide order, so that did not factor into his calculations, and so as oryx and co have been discussing he thought the best stategy for approaching the Harry issue was to create distance between them for safety's sake. So there's no point IMHO to judging Snape one way or another on the issue of winning Harry's trust in order to pass on the suicide message; at most we can judge the wisdom of his original approach relative to the concerns he knew to be in play at that time.
          • So while I may think that Snape should have been shown enlisting someone in the school like McGonagal or even Slughorn I can't write that into the story. So while I may think that Snape should have been shown enlisting someone in the school like McGonagal or even Slughorn I can't write that into the story.

            Whatever Severus' alternate plan, it would never have involved a human staff-member. They were not supposed to know his role. They did not have the power nor ability to hide it had they faced Voldemort, so as long as both Severus and Voldemort lived they could not be told, not even given a hint. (At most they could have been given the message in a form that only revealed itself after Severus' death.) The only entities Severus could have involved were the portraits and the house elves, which are magically bound to the headmaster's post, as well as the castle itself. Maybe even some of the ghosts.

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