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The antagonism between Severus and Harry - intended or not?

The World of Severus Snape

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The antagonism between Severus and Harry - intended or not?

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Several different lines of argument are used to explain why Severus is behaving in ways that Harry takes as hostile. One is that Severus had to act this way to maintain his cover as Death Eater: That when Voldemort returned Severus could point to his treatment of Harry as evidence that he remained a true DE and was never influenced by Dumbledore's agenda (and this would be supported by the testament of sons of DEs in his class if needed). A different argument is that Severus has strict and demanding standards (both academic and behavioral) as a teacher and Harry repeatedly fails those, thus bringing upon himself sarcasm, wrath, loss of points and detentions, as the case may be. And of course the argument more common among non-fans of Severus, that from the moment Severus saw the physical resemblance between Harry and his father Severus started taking on Harry his unreconciled enmity towards James (whether consciously or unconsciously).

This relationship becomes mutually hostile and results in Harry and his friends mistrusting Severus time and again - when they thought he was cursing Harry's broom and trying to steal the Philosophers' Stone, in the Shrieking Shack in POA, when they went to the Ministry in OOTP despite having already delivered him what should have been a sufficient warning to the Order and when Harry suspects Severus is a party to Draco's plot in HBP (well, he was in a way, but not how Harry expected). Severus' outburst in the Shrieking Shack ("... I have just saved your neck; you should be thanking me on bended knee!...") shows that Severus was offended by this state of affairs, he really expected to be trusted by Harry.

If Severus' behavior was strategic, intending to act the DE part - why would he expect Harry to trust him? Or is it that since their relationship already had a hostile start (whether because of Harry's conduct as a student or because of Severus' unsettled account with James) Severus decided to use it as part of his justification to Voldemort and the DEs (as we see him do with Bellatrix in HBP)? Did Severus expect Harry, perhaps with the aid of more trusted authority figures such as Minerva or Albus, to see the protection beyond the wrath and snark?

How does Albus fit in? In the early books he contributes to the distrust between the two - in PS he says Severus saved Harry so he could hate James' memory in peace, in POA he blames Severus for the need to make a daring rescue of Sirius. But later Albus reassures Harry that Severus was never suspected with any Dark activity since the first war (GOF), tells him how Severus warned the Order and searched for Harry and his friends in the forest, refrains from mentioning Severus' part in the matter of the prophecy until Harry learns of it himself (OOTP vs HBP) and tells Harry again and again that he trusts Professor Snape (HBP). Yet in OOTP he also says he expected Severus to have gotten over the past enough to teach Harry Occlumency successfully. So did Albus initially think he was supporting Severus' cover story but changed gears when he saw things were going badly? Or was he deliberately preventing the reconciliation of undesired hostility because it served his own plots?
  • Yes, ' something more definite', is very indefinite. This point has always bothered me. I just hope it gets addressed in the Scottish Book. I find speculating fun, but when it comes to important plot points I prefer an answer.
    • Why is it an important plot point for you, can I ask? I simply don't see why it's important for the *plot* to know what Severus might or might not have planned on doing in circumstances that did not arise. It's important perhaps for characterizing Snape, nothing more. Snape and JKR gave Harry and us what was important for understanding/reacting appropriately to the plot events that did play out, and the logic of the situation in the Shack makes it understandable to me that Snape gave only this highly selective information.

      I also seem to have not been clear enough, sorry: the 'something more definite' that I'm curious about is not about what JKR might envision, it's about what specifically *you* envision that Snape *could have* actually done in his planning when you talk about what seems to you to be his actual failure to plan. Because I don't see that he could have done much under the circumstances, and I am curious how you think he could have done more - what actions exactly he could have supposedly taken or planned to take, given the way so many things were outside his control. If one is going to accuse him of failing to take an action, one must have some idea of a possible action he could have taken or planned to take, yes? This is where I wonder what you personally would have liked to see him do, beyond the indefinite idea of 'make plans.'

      Where I'm coming from, to be clear: thinking about *theoretical* possibilities for Snape to plan anything, I think he had very limited options because most key things (including timing) were beyond his control. Finding Potter the moment he discovered Nagini's protection, showing him the Patronus, and explaining or using a Pensieve to convince Potter of his true role was about all he could expect to be able to do.

      But this is purely theoretical, since we are given *highly selected information* about the relevant time and his actions and plans then. Therefore I don't think one can make any sort of yes/no, verifiable statement about his failure or not-failure to plan; at most we can say that we don't know because we have no information. The cat is neither alive nor dead until the box is opened, and Severus neither planned nor did not plan until there is a statement or scene in canon establishing this. And we don't get one because it's not IMHO relevant to JKR's plot, just as what Snape did during the decade before Harry arrived at Hogwarts is not relevant and so is passed over. Everything we say regarding his plans or lack of plans and possibilities to plan is purely theoretical, purely supposition that is unverifiable one way or another.
      • OK, this is not an attack on your theories, so do not jump on me. The problem That I have with these probable theories is that when Snape had his one chance to take them, he did not. This is when he faces McGonagal in the school hallways. I think Snape knows that Harry is close by, I think the hairs on the back of his neck were probably standing on end, but instead of surrendering to McGonagal, and he could have, he chooses to use magic to defend himself. Notice I am not saying that he is attacking her in any way, because he's not. But neither is he saying, as Remus did in the Shrieking Shack scene in POA, "Here's my wand, I cannot fight you." Now Nagini is in the magical cage by then, has been since Voldemort realised his Horcruxes are being destroyed. Snape's knows he has to get the message to Harry, and here is an opportunity to at least tell someone he knows is 100% trustworthy about it. And he runs away instead of doing that very thing. This has always bothered me. I know that you will probably say that he didn't know if Nagini was in the cage for sure, but we don't know he didn't know either. I think he did know because he had to keep in touch with Voldemort on a constant level because this was something that he had to keep tabs on. Sometimes you have to take a chance that even if things are not 100% the way you would want them. Harry goes to the Forest even though he knows that Nagini is not dead. He knows that both Ron and Hermione know she has to be killed and he takes the further opportunity to tell Neville to kill her if he goes the chance. Snape doesn't take any opportunity to speak to McGonagal and I think he should have told her to at least to get Harry to the headmaster's office so that Dumbledore's portrait could have told Harry. Oryx you make a good point about Snape's Patronus but the problem I see there is that anyone can conjure a Patronus with the Patronus Charm. Umbridge has a perfectly beautiful one. Can you really see Harry believing anything that came out of Umbridge's Patronus' mouth. The same problem exists with Snape's. The moment Harry realised that it was Snape's Patronus he would have discounted it. The Patronus is a reflection of the caster's personality and Harry did not trust Snape. Whether you believe that Harry should have trusted Snape, or as I do that Snape gave Harry no opportunity to ever trust him is beside the point. For good or ill, Harry DID not trust him and that was the reality that Snape had to deal with. My problem is that I don't see Snape making any effort to deal with it, but then it may just be my problem. Anyway, I'm going to read throught that section again and do some research and see what I come up with.
        • What we know/what Severus knew

          Yes, I wrote an AU in which Severus surrendered to McG. then. But see, in my AU Phineas Nigellus's portrait had told Dumbledore's, who'd relayed it to Snape, what Harry knew about Voldie finding the cave Horcrux gone and deciding to protect Nagini.

          See, WE KNOW that Voldie's decided to protect Nagini and therefore (in retrospect) that the decision point Dumbledore gave Snape to tell Harry has arrived, because Harry saw it through the Scar-o-vison. But SEVERUS had no way of knowing.

          Until he arrived in the Shack and saw Nagini in her cage, and realized he'd just MISSED HIS CHANCE. Adding to the horror of that moment for him.
        • As Terri said, Severus did *not* know Nagini was protected until he saw her in her bubble in the Shack. Severus was at the school, Voldemort was touring the country for his Horcruxes. The only thing Severus knew was that Voldemort expected Harry to go to Ravenclaw tower and that eventually Voldemort would arrive later because one of the Carrows had summoned him through the Dark Mark. But he did not know if this was going to be their final show-down or just yet another encounter as they have had over the years. He had no way of knowing it was the time to deliver his message.

          Regarding the Patronus - it isn't the fact that Severus could cast a Patronus that mattered, nor the aesthetics of the Patronus, but the fact that Harry would realize the moment he saw Severus casting it (whether in life or in memory) that it was Severus who had brought him the sword in the forest. Harry knows why the sword was delivered to him (even if Severus didn't) - so he could destroy Horcruxes with it. And he knew through Albus' will that it was part of the Great Plan that he have it. So whoever bothered to make the effort and track him down in a forest (where he was so hidden that even Ron only found him with the help of Albus' Deluminator) to bring him the sword that Albus wanted him to have, the sword he needed for his mission, had to be on Albus' side, and therefore on his.

          Obviously Harry wouldn't have trusted Severus' Patronus earlier - which is why Severus doesn't let the Patronus speak. If the Patronus had said anything, however well meant, in Severus' voice the sword would have been left lying under the lake.
          • Oryx, you're quite right, but again there is a problem. Snape threw the sword in a pool of icy water in the middle of winter for Harry to recover. I think this supposed to be because the sword has to be recovered under conditions of valour.
            Problem 1. Harry already recovered the sword under conditions of valour. He did that in Chamber of Secrets. How many times does he have to win the darn thing?
            Problem 2. Harry almost died trying to get that sword. Not the most conducive way to gain trust. That would cause some distrust of the Patronus. This is what I mean when I say the moment that Harry knew who the Patronus belonged to, it is entirely likely he would think Snape had tried to kill him. I know that Ron was there, but Snape didn't. Also as Harry had already won the sword, the circumstances did not warrant throwing it in the pond
            Problem 3 My Internet is still not working and I am getting very annoyed. Oryx, I almost swore at the girl on the other end of the phone today. It's a good thing, Liz down stairs has a good service. I am so mad I could spit.
            • Problem 1. Harry already recovered the sword under conditions of valour. He did that in Chamber of Secrets. How many times does he have to win the darn thing?

              Each and every time, it seems, or Dumbledore wouldn't have made a point of saying so. (How did Dumbledore earn it to use on the ring? Would it not have worked for him had he not put the ring on and cursed his hand?)

              As to problem 2: Severus' approach shows familiarity with Harry's thinking. This was the boy who got excited about Dumbledore *wanting* him to go down the Labyrinth because he had the *right* to face Voldemort. Harry approves of authority figures sending him into danger to achieve a goal he considers worthwhile.
              • Sorry Oryx, I don't understand your point here. Dumbledore left the sword to Harry in his will. Morally the sword belonged to Harry, and he already had won it under conditions of valour. I think throwing the sword into the pond was an error on Snape's part. He just didn't plan very well when he didn't have Dumbledore to advise him. The portrait didn't have the true Dumbledore's depth of understanding. But it's a portrait and all portraits can do is echo in a faint manner what the person who is in it was like. They seem to know what that person knew up till the time of creation, but they cannot know outside of that.
                Harry never went down a Labyrinth. He went down to the Chamber of Secrets and he went to where the Philosopher's Stone was hidden, that is true. It is also true that Dumbledore realised that Harry would need to gain practical experience in dealing with Voldemort. Dumbledore knew that Harry would need to learn fast and learn young. That knowledge could not be taught in a classroom. I think Harry learnt very fast and very young. This was a necessity as Harry had been marked by Voldemort himself as the only one who could defeat him. I'm not to sure what Snape had to do with that, to tell the truth. I know he told Voldemort the Prophecy that targeted the children who were due to be born at the end of July, but he didn't tell Voldemort who to pick.
                Harry is very independent and fearless, he has to be to defeat Voldemort.
                Do you mean the Maze in GOF by the Labyrinth. Dumbledore had nothing to do with Harry entering the Maze. That was Barty Crouch Jr's plan. Dumbledore had no choice in the matter, Harry had to play or die.
                • The sword did not belong to Dumbledore, it wasn't anyone's private property, therefore Harry couldn't have gotten it that way. Including the sword in his will was merely Dumbledore's way of letting Harry know he needed it.

                  It is only your assumptions about how much the headmasters' personalities and intelligence is preserved by their portraits. Both Phineas and Albus pass the Turing Test with flying colors. If one cannot tell the difference between a conversing entity from a human intelligence then for all intent and purposes it is a human intelligence. Albus' portrait does learn information after his death - probably through conversations with Severus, or conversations Severus has with Phineas while at 12GP. (Maybe it has to do with the strength of one's magic, maybe with the time since one's death, maybe with interacting with people who knew one in life. Maybe the portraits do fade in their retention over the generations, maybe not.)

                  Harry never went down a Labyrinth

                  It's a fandom name for the obstacle course leading to the Philosophers' Stone in PS.

                  It is also true that Dumbledore realised that Harry would need to gain practical experience in dealing with Voldemort.

                  It was wrong of Dumbledore to endanger the entire student body for his training of Harry. Any student could have been killed by any of the obstacles. Any student could have been killed by the basilisk (because nobody was warned to protect their eyes). In any case, as far as Dumbledore knew until the end of GOF, Harry's role in a future confrontation with Voldemort was to walk to his death. The only training he needed was to learn not to care about his life and to learn that Albus knows best. Albus only 'saved' Harry in PS when he realized Voldemort managed to fail to kill Harry by the method he chose (any direct physical or magical attack was repelled by Lily-force though Quirrellmort could have killed Harry had he thought for instance to drop something on his head), and because Vapormort survived the death of Quirrell's body.

                • the sword

                  (Anonymous)
                  " Dumbledore left the sword to Harry in his will. Morally the sword belonged to Harry"

                  Nonsense. It wasn't Dumbledore's to give. It was school property, not Dumbledore's property.

                  "he already had won it under conditions of valour."

                  Presumably Dumbledore knows how the sword works, and he made a point of reminding Snape that he *must* provide conditions of need and valour for Harry.

                  " I think throwing the sword into the pond was an error on Snape's part."

                  The pond was icy, but not particularly dangerous. Harry provided the danger himself by not having the brains to remove the Horcrux before going in.

                  "He just didn't plan very well when he didn't have Dumbledore to advise him. The portrait didn't have the true Dumbledore's depth of understanding."

                  It's pretty obvious that live-Dumbledore's plan required that Snape take orders from the portrait in lieu of the man. So it's Dumbledore you should be blaming. If he'd been amenable to Snape making the plans, he'd have given him enough information to make plans with.

                  "Dumbledore knew that Harry would need to learn fast and learn young. That knowledge could not be taught in a classroom."

                  Erm, no. Dumbledore knew that Harry was a Horcrux and would have to die for Voldemort to die. That's why he doesn't immediately start looking for more Horcruxes after realising in CoS that the diary wasn't the only one; he thinks he already knows perfectly well where the other is and it's so susceptible to his suggestions it will die whenever he needs it to. It's only after Voldemort tries to kill Harry in GoF that he deduces that Harry isn't the *only* other one, and starts to look for more.

                  He doesn't bother to make sure Harry learns *anything* until HBP.

                  "This was a necessity as Harry had been marked by Voldemort himself as the only one who could defeat him. I'm not to sure what Snape had to do with that, to tell the truth."

                  The reason Harry survived was that Snape loved Lily and asked Voldemort to spare her. The fact that she had a choice - she could have saved herself but chose to try to save Harry instead - turned her death from a foregone conclusion into a powerful sacrifice that rebounded on Voldemort.

                  duj
                • Dumbledore's plans and preparations look stupider the more I think of him. Transferring the sword was a big deal because the sword had a visible place in the headmaster's office, so he went into the trouble of making a fake (or getting Severus to do so) and then waiting for Phineas to learn of Harry's location and all that. But in 6th year, why didn't he get Harry to take him down to the Chamber of Secrets and find the basilisk fang? After the Horcrux lesson he could tell Harry what the fang was good for and to carry it around.
                • I think we all agree that no one would put the sword in a pool of icy water unless
                  (a) they were a jerk or an idiot or
                  (b) it was actually necessary.

                  You mention that portraits can only know what happened up until they were formed (unless told); the portrait was created by Hogwarts after Dumbledore's death (implied in the text and also interview canon), thus it knew everything Dumbledore knew at his death, including what had happened in Harry's first year and what Dumbledore had written in his own will.

                  From p. 689 of my American hardcover DH:

                  Phineas Nigellus came hurrying into his portrait.

                  "Headmaster! They are camping in the Forest of Dean! The Mudblood --"

                  "Do not use that word!"

                  "-- the Granger girl, then, mentioned the place as she opened her bag and I heard her!"

                  "Good. Very good!" cried the portrait of Dumbledore behind the headmaster's chair. "Now, Severus, the sword! Do not forget that it must be taken under conditions of need and valor -- and he must not know that you give it! If Voldemort should read Harry's mind and see you acting for him --"


                  So. Either
                  (a) Dumbledore said that for no reason *and* Snape is a jerk or an idiot, or
                  (b) the sword has to be taken under conditions of need and valor each and every time, and Dumbledore and Snape acted accordingly.

                  I'm gonna go with (b).
                  • Occam's razor would certainly support that choice. ;)
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