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Tweak says, "I can has cheezburgr!"

Doop (xdoop) wrote in scans_daily,
@ 2009-09-12 16:56:00

Entry tags:

char: ares/marvel, char: green goblin/norman osborn, char: hawkeye/ronin/clint barton, char: moonstone/ms. marvel/karla sofen, creator: brian michael bendis, creator: marko djurdjevic, event: dark reign, event: the list, publisher: marvel comics, title: dark reign the list avengers

Dark Reign: The List - Avengers #1‎

This is from Dark Reign: The List - Avengers #1, by Brian Michael Bendis and Marko Djurdjevic.

Clint heads off to the Avengers Tower, wanting to kill Norman. After taking most out of the Dark Avengers, he runs into his old flame Karla Sofen (this is the first time they've met since the Avengers/Thunderbolts mini back in 2004, where Karla went into a coma at the end).

Clint tries shooting Norman, who has Fury's personal force shield.

(Post a new comment)

	colonel_green 2009-09-12 09:10 pm UTC (link)
	I liked the callback to Clint and Karla's time on Thunderbolts. Djurdjevic's art is interesting here; at times it looks a lot like Jim Cheung. (Reply to this)

	mcspakypants 2009-09-12 10:09 pm UTC (link)
	I loved this, and the Karla fanservice was much appreciated. I think they should have saved this for next month though since it seemed to give away a few plot points from the current New Avengers run. (Reply to this)

	jaybee3 2009-09-12 10:19 pm UTC (link)
	I notice no Fantastic Four on that checklist. Or is that book for November? Ever since Dark Reign: FF more than hinted that Franklin has his powers or not, I've been waiting to see Osborn's next attempt to shut down the Baxter Building. Really Franklin could just blink Normy into non-existence and end this. (Reply to this)

	neuhallidae 2009-09-12 10:26 pm UTC (link)
	First Rogue, now Clint. Karla should really stop trying to one-shot one-liner people. Or at least stop being surprised when it doesn't work. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	xdoop 2009-09-12 10:27 pm UTC (link)
	I don't think she really wanted to hurt Clint; she just didnt want Norman to think she was helping him. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	neuhallidae 2009-09-12 10:32 pm UTC (link)
	Awful big light fsham for not wanting to hurt someone, especially since the forcefield-save came as a swearing-worthy surprise. (Reply to this) (Parent)

lonewolf23k
2009-09-12 10:28 pm UTC (link)

Well, I think this has adequately demonstrated why Clint's "Go after Osborn" play was a fucking stupid idea. Especially since, as Spider-Woman pointed out, even if it had worked, it might not have made any real difference.

Consider:
-H.A.M.M.E.R. would still exist as an organization. Osborn's death would mean someone else gets put in charge; most likely someone just as corrupt as Norm, only with entirely different plans.
-The Dark Avengers -would- fall apart without Osborn, certainly. Well, 'Explode' might be a better term. Without Osborn keeping them in check, Venom and Bullseye would go on a killing spree, Daken would work out his own evil scheme, Ares would just go work for someone else, and Sentry might go absolutely nuts.
-Killing Osborn wouldn't get rid of the Hood, Loki or Dr. Doom. In fact, it would leave Doom in a perfect position to take over the Cabal, leaving our heroes back to square one.

Like Cap said: "Then What?" Clint's 'Plan' was impulsive, and had nothing in the way of forethought about the consequences. No wonder it went south.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

colonel_green
2009-09-12 10:32 pm UTC (link)

Well, they don't know about the Cabal, so far as I know (they know the Hood works for him, but not any of the others), so that really can't factor into their plans one way or another.

The only heroes who know about the Cabal are the Agents of Atlas (who have a vague idea about it) and presumably now at least some of the X-Men (Namor and Emma would obviously be able to supply the X-Men's leadership with plenty of information).

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	mcspakypants 2009-09-12 10:33 pm UTC (link)
	Not to mention the thing that made him finally act was a misunderstanding on how Utopia turned out. Had he listened to his teammates and went to Asteroid M first he would have seen that it wasn't a concentration camp. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	neuhallidae 2009-09-12 10:35 pm UTC (link)
	And yet the Avengers have nothing better. They couldn't even answer the "Then what?" Clint brought up about their "backup plan" of going to San Francisco. Both plans are shit, because this group of Avengers can't seem to get their heads together for anything. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	ashtoreth 2009-09-14 03:33 pm UTC (link)
	As someone mentioned upthread, getting better intel in general by talking to the X-men might've allowed the Avengers to find out about the Cabal from Emma and Namor. Really, intel and recon come BEFORE the plan. Not that these ninja Avengers are any good at any of those (plans, recon, intel).. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	lonewolf23k 2009-09-15 08:51 pm UTC (link)
	Here's what I would recommend. Don't kill Osborn. DESTROY him. Find out all his dirty little secrets and shove'em in the spotlight. Sabotage all of his alliances and break his hold over those he's forcing to work for him. Ruin all of his dirty plans and evil schemes, and knock out the foundations of his little house of cards. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	ashtoreth 2009-09-16 12:23 am UTC (link)
	See? That's Sun Tzu type stuff! And obvious to us. :/ It should be obvious to the heroes too--Tigra at least, has started part of that. I can only figure it's supposed to be part of the plot that the Avengers are dumb from shellshock and all the deaths and civil war distrust and that eventually it'll dawn on someone like an epiphany. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	interrobamf 2009-09-13 12:42 am UTC (link)
	Hasn't Sentry run off to somewhere after Bob regained control in the X-Men thing? (Reply to this) (Parent)

	autolychus2 2009-09-12 10:31 pm UTC (link)
	My only comment is to mention that Normie shouldn't have any trouble with Clint at all, much less need Ares to throw him into the window. Clint is a great fighter, but batshit crazy beats bad any day and Osborn is superhuman. I guess the explanation would be that, since he wants to get Ares to buy into the List, he wanted Ares to be involved in the capture of Barton. (Reply to this)

	drsevarius 2009-09-12 10:31 pm UTC (link)
	Does anyone know what Bucky meant when he said he killed Hitler? (Reply to this) (Thread)

	colonel_green 2009-09-12 10:33 pm UTC (link)
	Seems to have been a random joke. It really doesn't fit in continuity at all. The Torch killed Hitler (though nobody ever brings that up, because it's such a deviation from history). (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	xdoop 2009-09-12 10:41 pm UTC (link)
	There was a flashback of it in FF v3 #53. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	aaron_bourque 2009-09-12 11:46 pm UTC (link)
	What if Bucky IS Toro? (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	volksjager 2009-09-13 03:42 pm UTC (link)
	Seriously, what started out as a good idea with the Winter solder is getting WAY out of hand. (Reply to this) (Parent)

janegray
2009-09-13 12:19 pm UTC (link)

I could never understand why the "Hitler didn't really commit suicide, he was killed" trope is so popular.

Personally, I think that committing suicide is a perfect ending for such an evil bastard, because it shows that he realized he had lost and was fucked. Somebody killing him grants him a "he fought on until the very end!" honor he really didn't deserve.

I really liked that issue of the Midnighter where Midny goes back in time to kill Hitler, but relents when he sees how utterly pathetic the defeated Hitler is.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	icon_uk 2009-09-13 01:51 pm UTC (link)
	As with several Nazi's who committed suicide before being executed, it's viewed as a sort of "cheating". He was allowed to choose the time and method of his own death and according to many, that shouldn't have been his choice to make. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	volksjager 2009-09-13 03:41 pm UTC (link)
	Watch the film "Downfall". That will give you a good idea (contains the most shots of people shooting themselves in the head in cinema history). In the end it was Ike's decision to allow the Soviets to take Berlin that influenced Hitler's thinking. If the Allies took Berlin it would have been different IMO. (Reply to this) (Parent)

(Anonymous)
2009-09-14 02:55 am UTC (link)

Because - like Bin Laden - he's one of those evil guys that everyone hates and wants him to get what he had coming to him - justice wise or not; whether that be a law precident punishment or the chance for every person to punch his nose to the back of his head.

It's more fitting balance and justice wise for someone to get the punishment they deserve for their actions rather than for them to take the easy way out and kill themselves - almost cheating in a way

Also I believe he went back and tried to kill Hitler back early during World War I...the pathetic part more evoking the dilemma of "to kill someone who will do something bad in the future" paradigm. Had the guy been sent back to during World War II times - he'd appear much less pathetic and much more deserving of what he was getting

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	jlbarnett 2009-09-13 01:03 am UTC (link)
	seeing Karla do that makes me want Graviton to come back and kill her. I mean stopping him was one of the best things she ever did, now she's not even trying to be good, so let's see him come back and take her out to prevent her mind games from happening a second time. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	xdoop 2009-09-13 03:08 am UTC (link)
	Really? She considers helping Clint and only doesn't because the cameras are watching. And they're cordial with each other like they're old friends. She's done a lot worse in the other titles. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	jlbarnett 2009-09-13 03:14 am UTC (link)
	Norman is nothing. He's only powerful because people are inexplicably willing to stand beside him and Karla knows how fickle the public can be from experience. She's betraying someone she was very close to for convieniece and acting like it's no big deal. That's WORSE than just being generic "Bwah-hah-hah" type evil. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

stolisomancer
2009-09-13 08:28 am UTC (link)

Karla's smart enough to play both sides against the middle. If she subdues Clint with Norman watching, she could theoretically make it easy for Clint to break out later, as well as taking him down with less damage to Clint than Daken or Bullseye or Ares would inflict. This was probably the smartest thing she could've done while ensuring her continued survival in that environment.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

	khamelea 2009-09-13 03:06 am UTC (link)
	I think the art plays off of the dark palette in this sequence nicely! (Reply to this)

starwolf_oakley
2009-09-13 04:03 am UTC (link)

I find it noteworthy that Spider-Man is the one who is big on "Killing Osborn would be wrong." (I considered posting those pages, but it looks like it would go above the issue limit. So I'll just talk about it here.)

Spider-Man seems to think that Clint is only going kill-happy because things suck so badly for superheroes now that Norman is in charge. Since life always sucks for Spider-Man (and he doesn't remember his marriage as a comfort) he sees having "a rough patch" can't excuse murder. Clint, on the other hand, says that if Spider-Man had just killed the Green Goblin back in high school, they wouldn't be in this mess. A callback to the ILLUMINATI one-shot, IIRC.

With the final part of THE LIST being a Spider-Man issue, I am curious if we will get something like BATMAN #650: Spider-Man reveals he wants to kill Norman Osborn so badly he can practically taste it. He even thinks letting Norman live is like that time he let the Burglar escape, but 100 times worse (the Burglar killed Ben Parker by accident; Norman killed many people on purpose). But killing Norman would be wrong.

This brings up questions regarding Peter Parker's ideas on power and responsibility, and if Peter is shirking his responsibility to stop Norman "for good" just so he won't feel like a hypocrite. It's also very possible that Norman *not* knowing Peter's secret ID anymore lessened his Spider-obsession, so Norman is now free to spread the wealth. "Wealth" meaning "insanity," of course.

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	kd_the_movie 2009-09-13 04:20 am UTC (link)
	the amount of eye rolling involving "The List" is going to be astronomical. Seriously staging a proactive attack effort against WOLVERINE, THE HULK (PICK ONE IT DOESN'T MATTER) AND THE PUNISHER is tantamount to suicide. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	ashtoreth 2009-09-14 03:38 pm UTC (link)
	::cackle:: Going after Matt Murdock at the EXACT TIME when he's protected by a death and demon worshipping ninja cult army is a bit like attacking an insane asylum with a banana too. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	kamikazescot 2009-09-14 05:35 am UTC (link)
	Y'know, with Clint's GRR GRR I'M ANGRY GRR behavior I thought I was in Ultimates for a moment. (Reply to this)

	thechrishaley 2009-09-15 05:35 pm UTC (link)
	Did I miss something where Bullseye suddenly has a healing factor? (Reply to this) (Thread)

	pensive1 2009-09-17 04:24 am UTC (link)
	THANK YOU I thought I was the only one wondering that. AFAIK Bullseye only has his talent + an adamantium spine that was added artificially. NO HEALING FACTOR (see Deadpool 11-12). (Reply to this) (Parent)