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geoffsebesta ([info]geoffsebesta) wrote in [info]scans_daily,
@ 2009-08-21 17:02:00

Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Entry tags:creator: keith giffen, creator: larry mahlstedt, creator: paul levitz, group: legion of super-heroes, title: legion of super-heroes

Legion of Super-Giffen, Prologue II
First, I would like to apologize. I am absolutely humbled by the depth of Legion knowledge that I've seen on this board. Never expected that. Ya gotta admit pre-Zero Hour LSH continuity is a little obscure at this point.

So, yeah, there are people here who know their Legion.

That said, I still don't feel like exhaustively explaining every little thing in the art below -- that's a lot of typing. Giffen's LSH is the densest storytelling this side of the Silver Age.

No, I just want us to look at the pictures right now. We'll get to the themes later.



So once again I present you with the art of Keith Giffen,




LSHv2#2.



*sigh* I mostly posted this page because of the excellent manipulation of depth and space, and not for the cheesy image of the villain standing over the helpless heroine. The fact that she's his sister does not make things any less cheesy.

I've never understood Giffen's relationship to cheesecake, though I'll be the first to admit that his theoretically-sexy women look a lot better when Al Gordon is inking him. It never seems to work. They never look sexy.

I've always got the impression that Giffen knew that half-naked ladies sell comics but had no major interest in drawing them. It feels obligatory.

This panel works because of composition, shadow, and space. The focus is not on Ayla, especially not on Ayla's deshabille.

I dunno. Discuss.


NEAT


Now, THAT is a page.


I detect manga influence here.

This comic was done very shortly after McCloud left the DC bullpen, I believe.



Look, it's awesome. It's cheesy, but it's so awesome. The traditional iconography indicates that Ol-Vir will be the one to betray Lightning Lord, an interesting thread that I don't think they ever pursued.


Pop art! I see a lot of Roy Lichtenstein love around here.


What a great panel. I chose it for the expressions but the dialogue is aces.


Is that a Cerebus joke?




It is. That's a good drawing of a simple thing.


Once again, I am way under 1/3 for this issue so if anyone wants to post more there's plenty space.

EDIT: Ashtoreth has again provided a helpful summary:

The first picture under the cut is Lightning Lord (Mekt Ranzz), brother to the twins, Lightning Lad and Light Lass (Ayla Ranzz). Her powers originally duplicated her brothers' but were altered to lessen items weight (the opposite of Star Boy/Starman's ability) in order to get around a Legion rule that prohibited duplication of powers. With her hands manacled and in a dungeon, her power is useless.

Lightning Lord was born without a twin, and that made him a freak on his home planet. He has serious sibling issues. He decided that Light Lass's rejection of the superhero life means she might be turnable to the Legion of SuperVillains.

Since Lightning Lad, Saturn Girl and Cosmic Boy founded the Legion of Super Heroes, Lightning Lord generally partners with a trio that chose to be their opposites (Cosmic King, Saturn Queen, and Lightning Lord). They showed up in a Superman/Batman story where they kidnapped the two heroes and raised them as evil tyrants in an effort to change history.

The next panel is Dawnstar, a winged Amerindian with an unlikely capability to fly faster than light. She races an energy villain named Lazon who can fly at lightspeed. Best not to think about it too much, but worth noting that, while flying, Wildfire is faster than Superman, and Dawnstar is faster than Wildfire.

In the next series of panels, Wildfire attacks Titania (strong chick) and Magno Lad. Wildfire was turned into a ball of anti-energy years before, and at this point required an energy suit to interact with the world. Wildfire and Dawnstar have just returned from her home on Starhaven (a whole race of winged Amerinds!). She has failed her vision quest to find her soulmate, and despite Wildfire's GIANT EMO over his inability to have sex and really truly be her boyfriend, they are a couple.

The next panel needs little explanation (Titania kicks Ultra Boy into Mon-el) but it does show off Titania's really awful haircut.

The next panel I honestly never realized was based on Leonardo's Last Supper. In my defense, I was a child. :) Lightning Lad may be holding court over the Legion of SuperVillains, but he is not the actual leader. He is group oriented enough that he was a reliable second in command.

The next panel was the punchline to the current Legion leader, Element Lad, congratulating himself on how well he was handling everything. Element Lad had a tendency to panic. In later continuity, he was retconed into having a relationship with a guy, Shvaughn/Sean Erin.

The next panel: supervillain banter! Radiation Roy is..well..a radiation user and Tyr has a sentient gunhand that, oddly, sometimes controls minds. Radiation Roy and Tyr argue over name fashion. In the old days, I'd've said Tyr was right. As an adult, 'radiator' sounds too much like a car part. I believe 'Radiation Roy' could be made to work by a post-modernist writer.

The next panels show an example of the frustrating secret symbols meant to stand for Interlac, the common language of that era. Dr. Gym'll is examining Saturn Girl, who stupidly went into battle while she was 9 months pregnant. The effort started labor. Her husband, Lightning Lad, and the Legion leader, Element Lad, wait anxiously. Element Lad is having a tizzy.

Saturn Girl had a normal child who became known in the letters pages as Nosegrabber Kid. We later learn that her child had a twin that was stolen by Darkseid (and this is the meaning of his parting prophecy) and turned into the giant superstrong mental-lightning shooting monster called Validus, who became a member of the Fatal Five in the past. (They made an appearance in Superman's World War event.

In the next panel, we see the castle that the Legion of SuperVillains has made homebase, along with signs of the alterations they've been making as part of their Grand Plan. In the spaceship are Queen Projectra and her consort, Karate Kid, returning from their honeymoon to Projectra's home planet Orando.

The last panel shows the heretofore unrevealed leader of the Legion of Supervillains, holding the captured ring of either Queen Projectra or Karate Kid. The green mist is Mistmaster, who took down the spaceship by gassing them. The white gloves were a red herring to throw readers' guesses off.


(Post a new comment)


[info]volksjager
2009-08-21 05:57 pm UTC (link)
Hmmmm, I wanna be Esper lass.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]geoffsebesta
2009-08-21 06:58 pm UTC (link)
http://www.dcuguide.com/chronology.php?name=esperlass

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]icon_uk
2009-08-21 06:44 pm UTC (link)
Interesting observation on Giffen's use of the feminine form. I'm not sure that Dream Girl and his redesign for the White Witch support it entirely, but I can see the point.

And actually, given that a flight ring is a simple disk at right angles to the edge of a simple ring, I'd say that was a pretty poor drawing, the angles and depth are all wrong.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]geoffsebesta
2009-08-21 06:50 pm UTC (link)
Okay, we're well into the realm of speculation here, but I think Dream Girl is sort of a parody of a sexy woman, and White Witch and Dawnstar represent. I base this mostly on the lips, because Giffen draws these weird porn star lips sometimes that make no sense at all. Dream Girl has them, Dawnstar and WW do not. Whenever I see those puffy Giffen lips I think "That's supposed to be sexy, but it's not," and I have enough respect for Giffen that I think he did it on purpose... :)

Yeah, the hand is fucked up too, and the ring is way too small. But it's comics, and it's a totally functional storytelling panel. It's actually a great storytelling panel.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)


[info]icon_uk
2009-08-21 08:27 pm UTC (link)
But it's comics

Sorry, but as a browse through any days worth of scans_daily will show you, that's not remotely an excuse.

and it's a totally functional storytelling panel. It's actually a great storytelling panel.

Again, I'd have to say, it's certainly not "great" since the focus of the panel, the flight ring, doesn't actually look like a flight ring looks.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)


[info]geoffsebesta
2009-08-21 08:42 pm UTC (link)
You're right, I can't defend it.

I wonder why I like it so much...

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]nezchan
2009-08-21 07:28 pm UTC (link)
"That's a good drawing of a simple thing."

Except the perspective on the ring is wrong. We should be seeing the L from above, not dead on.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]geoffsebesta
2009-08-21 08:43 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, I'm really wondering what it is that I like about the panel. It's wrong on a bunch of different levels, I'd never draw it that way and I doubt anyone else would either. Yet I like it.

Maybe it's nostalgia.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)


[info]nezchan
2009-08-21 08:45 pm UTC (link)
Nothing wrong with that, to be sure. And honestly, most people wouldn't notice that it's an unwearable ring (heck, it's even too small for that hand), they'd just see it for what it represents.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)


[info]geoffsebesta
2009-08-21 08:46 pm UTC (link)
I think there's something about the coloring I find very pleasant, too.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)


[info]dr_hermes
2009-08-22 12:37 am UTC (link)
Sometimes we just like or dislike art (or music) for no good reason. We're complicated enough that we don't always understand our own thinking.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)


[info]geoffsebesta
2009-08-22 04:57 am UTC (link)
Although you are right, I still deny that with every fiber of my being. Taste must be quantized and objectified! How else are we going to teach computers to draw comics for us?

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)


[info]jlroberson
2009-08-22 07:59 am UTC (link)
I wish I could teach MY computer to do that in my style. I'd get a lot more done and my hand would not ache.

Alas, those of us who do NOT like the Poser look...

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)


[info]geoffsebesta
2009-08-22 08:12 am UTC (link)
Poser is clear proof that we are not there yet.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]cmdr_zoom
2009-08-22 01:01 am UTC (link)
Perhaps you're imagining one of those sitting in your hand?

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)


[info]geoffsebesta
2009-08-22 04:57 am UTC (link)
Like you'd turn it down. :)

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)


[info]cmdr_zoom
2009-08-22 04:19 pm UTC (link)
I might. Fear of heights.
I suppose I could wear it just for the communication and ceremonial/membership functions.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)


[info]geoffsebesta
2009-08-22 06:50 pm UTC (link)
I always wondered, when you use a flight ring, does it tug you around by your hand? Or is your entire body supported?

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]artnouveauho.livejournal.com
2009-08-21 08:34 pm UTC (link)
I really love the page from this story arc where Lightning Lord keeps telling Ayla to join the bad guys, and every panel of her saying "no" is a closer close-up of her face. (How many comics artists today would focus on the half-naked girl's *face*?)

Other than that, I just wanted to point out that Wildfire's helmet with the energy beam coming out of it looks eerily like a brightly-coloured phallus.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]geoffsebesta
2009-08-21 08:45 pm UTC (link)
That's not this sequence, but a different one. maybe I should post this particular sequence anyway -- it's very interesting on its own merits.

Sometimes a shaft of light is just a shaft...

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]jlroberson
2009-08-21 11:52 pm UTC (link)
I sometimes wonder if Radiation Roy got his name because of a typo. It is one of the least threatening villain names ever. And his costume doesn't help.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]icon_uk
2009-08-22 12:47 am UTC (link)
IIRC He is another case of "Legion reject turns to life of supervilainy", so he really wasn't going for badass supervillain stylings when he picked it.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)


[info]jlroberson
2009-08-22 07:44 am UTC (link)
He's also a pretty sad SOB; the radiation he puts out also hurts him and gives him tumors!

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)


[info]geoffsebesta
2009-08-22 06:47 pm UTC (link)
That's...oddly realistic.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Weird coincidence..
[info]steverodgers5
2009-08-23 01:21 am UTC (link)
His partner looks a little like Gladiator in that panel. Gladiator...Radiator..hmm..

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

Re: Weird coincidence..
[info]geoffsebesta
2009-08-23 01:25 am UTC (link)
The Imperial Guard is based on the LSH and Gladiator is their version of Superboy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Guard_%28comics%29#Resemblances_to_DC_Comics.27_Legion_of_Super-Heroes.

The freakin' Legion. When you start looking for them, they're everywhere.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

Re: Weird coincidence..
[info]steverodgers5
2009-08-23 05:57 pm UTC (link)
Huh! I actually didn't know that. Although it does make a lot of sense. Though in this particular instance, I was more meaning that the character (Tyr?) in the panel actually looked a little like Gladiator. So maybe it was a deliberate tongue in cheek dig back at Marvel for ripping off the legion group in the first place!

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]ashtoreth
2009-08-22 04:16 am UTC (link)
The first picture under the cut is Lightning Lord (Mekt Ranzz), brother to the twins, Lightning Lad and Light Lass (Ayla Ranzz). Her powers originally duplicated her brothers' but were altered to lessen items weight (the opposite of Star Boy/Starman's ability) in order to get around a Legion rule that prohibited duplication of powers. With her hands manacled and in a dungeon, her power is useless.

Lightning Lord was born without a twin, and that made him a freak on his home planet. He has serious sibling issues. He decided that Light Lass's rejection of the superhero life means she might be turnable to the Legion of SuperVillains.

Since Lightning Lad, Saturn Girl and Cosmic Boy founded the Legion of Super Heroes, Lightning Lord generally partners with a trio that chose to be their opposites (Cosmic King, Saturn Queen, and Lightning Lord). They showed up in a Superman/Batman story where they kidnapped the two heroes and raised them as evil tyrants in an effort to change history.

The next panel is Dawnstar, a winged Amerindian with an unlikely capability to fly faster than light. She races an energy villain named Lazon who can fly at lightspeed. Best not to think about it too much, but worth noting that, while flying, Wildfire is faster than Superman, and Dawnstar is faster than Wildfire.

In the next series of panels, Wildfire attacks Titania (strong chick) and Magno Lad. Wildfire was turned into a ball of anti-energy years before, and at this point required an energy suit to interact with the world. Wildfire and Dawnstar have just returned from her home on Starhaven (a whole race of winged Amerinds!). She has failed her vision quest to find her soulmate, and despite Wildfire's GIANT EMO over his inability to have sex and really truly be her boyfriend, they are a couple.

The next panel needs little explanation (Titania kicks Ultra Boy into Mon-el) but it does show off Titania's really awful haircut.

The next panel I honestly never realized was based on Leonardo's Last Supper. In my defense, I was a child. :) Lightning Lad may be holding court over the Legion of SuperVillains, but he is not the actual leader. He is group oriented enough that he was a reliable second in command.

The next panel was the punchline to the current Legion leader, Element Lad, congratulating himself on how well he was handling everything. Element Lad had a tendency to panic. In later continuity, he was retconed into having a relationship with a guy, Shvaughn/Sean Erin.

The next panel: supervillain banter! Radiation Roy is..well..a radiation user and Tyr has a sentient gunhand that, oddly, sometimes controls minds. Radiation Roy and Tyr argue over name fashion. In the old days, I'd've said Tyr was right. As an adult, 'radiator' sounds too much like a car part. I believe 'Radiation Roy' could be made to work by a post-modernist writer.

The next panels show an example of the frustrating secret symbols meant to stand for Interlac, the common language of that era. Dr. Gym'll is examining Saturn Girl, who stupidly went into battle while she was 9 months pregnant. The effort started labor. Her husband, Lightning Lad, and the Legion leader, Element Lad, wait anxiously. Element Lad is having a tizzy.

Saturn Girl had a normal child who became known in the letters pages as Nosegrabber Kid. We later learn that her child had a twin that was stolen by Darkseid (and this is the meaning of his parting prophecy) and turned into the giant superstrong mental-lightning shooting monster called Validus, who became a member of the Fatal Five in the past. (They made an appearance in Superman's World War event.

In the next panel, we see the castle that the Legion of SuperVillains has made homebase, along with signs of the alterations they've been making as part of their Grand Plan. In the spaceship are Queen Projectra and her consort, Karate Kid, returning from their honeymoon to Projectra's home planet Orando.

The last panel shows the heretofore unrevealed leader of the Legion of Supervillains, holding the captured ring of either Queen Projectra or Karate Kid. The green mist is Mistmaster, who took down the spaceship by gassing them. The white gloves were a red herring to throw readers' guesses off.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]geoffsebesta
2009-08-22 04:55 am UTC (link)
Lightning Lord is definitely the most interesting villain. His redemption in FYL was perfect (and his attempt to intervene with Roxxas).

Are you recapping from memory? That's amazing. I can't remember the plot of this stuff twenty minutes after I read it. I'd never say that plot was not one of Levitz's strengths, because he was revolutionary. I will say that his plots do not age as well. I just reread the conspiracy storyline, and when it's not drabbed out over the course of months and you already know the ending...not exactly compelling.

I do like the way that fighting induced SGs labor, nice touch. The Validus thing...never really sure if that was a retcon or an old plot device, but it sort of works. I just went back and reread the issues in question, no, there is no mention of mystic lightning there.

To be precise, Validus is plot manipulation of the grossest sort, but the end result is so cool that I forgive it. I consider this giant telepathic electricity monster to be adequately lampshaded.

Also very nice details with Element Lad's tendency to panic and change his mind, which I'd never really noticed before. It's very constant.

The Shvaughn/Sean thing soars untrammelled over retcon status and becomes a fundamental point of character. The best parallel I can see is when Isaiah Bradley was added to the Captain America canon with Truth, not so much a retcon as a righting of ancient wrongs. The lack of homosexuality and TG in LSH is, to modern eyes, extremely suspicious. I agree with J. Shooter's assessment of Element Lad.

I think Tyr thought Radiator was only slightly less dumb than Radiation Roy. I also suspect a typo in his origin, BTW.

Dawnstar is completely awesome, in spite of her embodiment of the Magic Indian trope. Her design looks great, and her powers are goofy but awesome. I was really curious to see what she would be like post-Bounty. Her relationship with Drake was in no way impossible -- it was Drake who made it impossible, with much moaning and gnashing of teeth. You telling me they don't have dildos in the 31st century, Drake? Or is it your pleasure that you're so fixated on?

I would like to have seen an intelligent treatment of Dawnsar, Wildfire, and Superman's perceptions as they approach the speed of light.

In my heart I can't really call post-Giffen LSH continuity. I suspect a lot of people feel the same way about Star Wars. "Mitochloridwha?!?"

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)


[info]ashtoreth
2009-08-22 05:55 am UTC (link)
Are you recapping from memory?

Mostly. I have Attention Deficit Disorder. Couldn't tell you what day I got married, but old comic books...:P I did have to look up Lazon's name.

I will say I do not recall ever HATING Levitz plots. He may not be the best, but he's a decent workaday writer.

I can kind of understand Saturn Girl's fighting...better to fight than watch her husband get killed, right? And her power's all mental.

The Fatal Five's been around forever, no way they had this in mind! But they definitely intended it when Saturn Girl's kid was born, it was in the annual.

Never saw the gender switch so I really couldn't say. It annoys me that they'd alter such a great character, but hey, maybe it was better. I wouldn't know.

I concur. Radiation Boy sounds pretty standard for LSH. :)

Dawnstar IS a great character, despite the number of people who complain that she's a cliche. The problems may've been real though. Her mother said "he isn't even *whole*!" Like the ancient Celts, wholeness of body might be a thing for her people. Also she had that "I must have the man destiny has chosen for me!" religious thing.

I just thought it was funny when Wildfire and Dawnstar would say, "Speed is of the essence!" and zoom off ahead of the superdupermen. How often did they come in secondbest?

Yeah. I see pictures of the Legion in Adventure 1 and I just...that's not the Legion.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)


[info]geoffsebesta
2009-08-22 06:41 pm UTC (link)
I dislike Levitz's dialogue. I like his large-form structure. I hate his issue-to-issue structure BUT I recognize that it is essential and effective and would not have him change it -- his insistence on love-fight-mystery every issue worked.

Dawnstar is a cliche, no one could argue that. I would say, mostly for sentimental reasons I'm sure but maybe there's a kernel of truth in there, that some real life people are cliches (though they are rare, they exist), and that there's nothing wrong with using them in a story as long as they don't dominate the story and the other characters behave normally with them. I've known people very much like Dawnstar. Except not as pretty. And instead of being Space Indians, they're from Kentucky.

I just went and checked the Annual (#1, Who Shot Laurel Kent, printed between #8 and #9), and the flash of lightning is not in there! I know, I know, I've read it too. But I think it's in a later annual -- I think we're remembering the retcon.

It's a hell of a good retcon, IMO.

I can understand Saturn Girl fighting, and then having that trigger labor, I understand that too. It's good plotting.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]katzedecimal
2009-08-22 04:52 pm UTC (link)
I am absolutely humbled by the depth of Legion knowledge that I've seen on this board. Never expected that. Ya gotta admit pre-Zero Hour LSH continuity is a little obscure at this point.

I can't believe I'm reading this. While I'm sure you don't intend to, you're coming across as rather condescending and ageist, definitely ageist. I've been reading comics since 1973, which is when I learned to read; before that I made my father read them to me as bedtime stories. My parents bought me my first computer in 1981, because they were a) rich and indulgent, b) spotted the wave of the future coming. I've been on the Internet since 1991 and it was well established by that point. I'm by no means alone, on this comm or in real life. Probably a good third of this comm is made up of over-40s and we have more than a few over-60s as well. The reason statements like this are so offensive is that it assumes that at some point in our lives, we're supposed to chuck all of our hobbies and personalities on the pile, forget everything we knew, and become Desperate Housewives-watching mundanes who can't set their TiVOs and have mysteriously forgotten how to check their emails (which would be really bad because I'm the one who taught my niece how to set up her firewall - not the other way around.) It reinforces the myth that comics readers are irresponsible basement dwellers with no lives. Neither of these myths are true and this comm is a perfect example of that.

That's all I have to say on the subject. I'm going to try to enjoy your posts because they are Legion and I love me some Legion (all except the Threeboot)

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]geoffsebesta
2009-08-22 05:42 pm UTC (link)
Man, what exactly do you expect me to say?

What would you say to someone that wrote this to you?

You just rejected a direct apology and excoriated me for being ageist. Ludicrous.

If you're interested, I've never talked with anyone about pre-ZH here. I work in the industry and have met a grand total of three people who care abour pre-ZH...and one of them was Dan Raspler.

The idea that twenty-year-obsolete, uncollected comics are somehow obscure...bothers you?

I dunno where to go from here. Obviously I can't apologize because that's what made you mad.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]ex_agata254
2010-05-20 05:29 pm UTC (link)
Great issue! To my mind, Legion of Super is one of the most successful comic books ever created. Its great all around! I like the exciting and unpredictable story-lines and ,of course, the drawings are also excellent!
Thanks a lot for this post! Keep writing!

sex toy is the most fun you can have without laughing.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]geoffsebesta
2010-05-24 12:52 am UTC (link)
Thanks! This is some of the nicest spam I've ever gotten! No, I am not clicking that link.

(Reply to this) (Parent)



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