InsaneJournal

Tweak says, "plot > pb"

Doop (xdoop) wrote in scans_daily,
@ 2009-08-06 23:36:00

Entry tags:

char: human torch/johnny storm, char: invisible woman/susan storm, char: mr. fantastic/reed richards, char: the thing/ben grimm, creator: jack kirby, creator: stan lee, publisher: marvel comics, title: fantastic four

Sue tries out some new hairdos.
In Fantastic Four #47, Sue feels that Reed isn't giving her enough attention. And what better way to get it than with a new hairdo?

And, after they've landed...

(Read comments) - (Post a new comment)

jlroberson
2009-08-07 07:39 am UTC (link)

Character who only became interesting and useful once someone writing her realized women are human beings: Sue Storm, who has been 200% improved since Lee/Kirby. In fact, she may be one of the very few Marvel characters where the Lee/Kirby version inspires no nostalgia whatsoever. The single most degradingly sexist character from an era already deeply so.

I totally loathe Stan Lee's Sue. I remember that one story that purported to defend her presence in the FF because Abraham Lincoln had a mom, so women have SOME use, apparently. Then there was the Hulk story where she said she wouldn't be much use finding the Hulk, to which Ross snorts that a pretty girl is ALWAYS of use to keep the men's morale up. To which Reed says, "That's just how WE feel about Sue." Yes, being able to whistle at an attractive ass as it walks by in tights certainly could cheer up soldiers, absolutely. Maybe comfort women too! Gick.

Byrne's in the 80s, who goes on and on about how liberated being a housewife makes her feel to a TV interviewer, isn't much better, but at least Byrne let loose the actual extent of what Sue can do. But I think Lee just made her invisible so it'd be easier to forget she was there.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

wizardru
2009-08-07 02:01 pm UTC (link)

Now, let's be fair, here: the comic shown here was created in 1966. Sue being on the team AT ALL was an accomplishment, for that point in time. Lee and Kirby did have her as the damsel-in-distress a lot, early on...but as time passed, they got better. Compare Sue's work here with, for example, any female character on Star Trek's first season, for example. Taken in context, Sue is generally pretty liberated, considering she starts the comic as a Jackie Kennedy clone and is being filtered through a comic written primarily for young boys. You also have to keep in mind that Lee's goal here was 'Heroes with Hangups', as he described the FF: Johnny the hothead with an inferiority complex, Ben the self-hating grump, Reed the cold intellectual with a guilty conscience and Sue, the girlfriend/wife who feels unappreciated. Keep in mind that Reed and Sue have only been married for a few months at the point this comic came out...and already a chronically distracted Reed is taking her for granted AGAIN.

As for Byrne's run: I think you're pulling one piece out of a distinguished run and coloring the whole thing with a broad brush. Byrne changed her from the Invisible Girl to the Invisible WOMAN, ramped up her abilities and made her a much more complex character. Sue became not just a mom, not just a wife or force to be reckoned with, as well as a capable leader in her own right.

I agree that Sue has benefited from time...but that's as much to society's changing views of women and the diversification of comic book audiences as anything else. I can't really think of many female characters in 1966 who were that more advanced than Sue. Hell, Batgirl was introduced solely as a way to show that Robin wasn't gay...and she was eliminated in 1964 (except on TV, where she was getting tied up a lot). I mean Carol Danvers around this time was Captain Marvel's love interest, like most female characters. And we don't even need to discuss what Lois Lane was like around this time.

Context, is what I'm saying.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

dr_hermes
2009-08-07 09:22 pm UTC (link)

And Sue was not (for example) a former Navy Seal or CIA agent with lots of training. She was a regular person, interested in fashion and possibly acting. The cosmic rays were an accident, and she eventually grew into the adventuring role as her powers developed. But expecting a person unexpectedly put into that situation to immediately start "kicking ass" doesn't fit her character. Ben had been a Marine fighter pilot and Reed was in the OSS, so they did have experience in combat. Johnny was young and cocky and made lots of bad decisions at first. But Sue was not a person who would immediately turn into a tough commando. Actually, most people never would, male or female.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

	xdoop 2009-08-07 02:23 pm UTC (link)
	Byrne's in the 80s, who goes on and on about how liberated being a housewife makes her feel to a TV interviewer, isn't much better I think that scene was just Byrne trying to address Sue's previous characterizations. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	cmdr_zoom 2009-08-07 02:52 pm UTC (link)
	THE EYES OH GOD (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	scarlettwyst 2009-08-13 01:38 am UTC (link)
	THIS. (Reply to this) (Parent)

psychop_rex
2009-08-08 04:11 am UTC (link)

Also, the interviewer is being kinda pushy there. She's obviously trying to steer the interview down feminist lines, denouncing her for being a bubble-headed little housewife, while Sue is like 'I'm fine as I am, thank you, and I can hold my own quite nicely'. Personally, I think it's quite a good representation of her - Byrne's run on the FF is one of the definitive ones, as far as I'm concerned.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	dr_hermes 2009-08-08 04:51 am UTC (link)
	You can really see Byrne setting this up so Sue can express her point of view. I like seeing Sue so articulate and sharp (her polite rebuttals are more effective than just snapping back), but unfortunately real talk-show hosts tend to be pushy and confrontational. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	psychop_rex 2009-08-08 07:18 am UTC (link)
	Well, that's kinda their job, in a way - to provoke interesting answers. Still, Sue obviously has plenty of experience dealing with such people - it makes sense that she'd know how to defuse the situation. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	dr_hermes 2009-08-08 02:58 pm UTC (link)
	Yes. Sue handles it well by being polite but clear, rather than getting fired up. This would work with say, Larry King but nor Bill O'Reilly. It depends if the interviewer really wants answers or is just trying for fake controversy. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	psychop_rex 2009-08-08 08:33 pm UTC (link)
	Yeah, if you're dealing with one of those guys who sees it as his job simply to yell at you, you're pretty much screwed. I'd like to think that eventually Sue would lose her temper, slap a forcefield over the guy's mouth, and THEN go on to politely and rationally answer his questions. (Reply to this) (Parent)

(Anonymous)
2009-08-07 06:08 pm UTC (link)

That story was a comic bit of filler than Lee probably didn't spend too much time fine-tuning. It also has him giving two different versions of the beginning of Reed and Sue's relationship in two consecutive panels.

The part you're referring to is clumsily done, but it's more than just "Lincoln had a mom." It's Reed responding to a fan letter-very angrily, it might be worth pointing out-that essentially said "Why do you have Sue on the team, her powers are useless." Reed's answer was in two stages. 1) Your premise is wrong. You don't need powers to be useful. 2) Your premise, even if it were right, wouldn't apply here because Sue has been a valuable active member of the time. One of the examples given was the same one that Byrne used, her saving them when they met Dr. Doom.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

dr_hermes
2009-08-07 09:11 pm UTC (link)

And to be honest, Sue's power of invisibility by itself was not always useful in a slugfest. But she was part of the group, and even if the cosmic rays had just given her the power to tell when the phone was going to ring, she would have part of the group dynamic.

Lee and Kirby had a concept that is not always remembered all these years later. These weren't four professionals forming a corporation. This was essentially a family that hung around socially before the trip into space. Sue and Johnny had no other relatives (the father was in prison and the mother dead). Reed was a loner except for his relationship with Sue (which entailed having her kid brother tag along). Ben was somethings an uncle figure, sometimes an older brother figure (Reed and Sue treated him both ways, depending on the circumstances).

Seriously, it didn't matter if Sue wasn't tough as a Navy Seal. She provided support. When you're in trouble and want friends around, you don't think, "Well, this one's a good driver and that one is generous and that one knows a lot about movies." You're just glad to have them around.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

psychop_rex
2009-08-08 04:16 am UTC (link)

Exactly - Sue wasn't created as a fighter, per se, but as a love interest for Reed, a mother hen to the group and a big brother to Johnny - roles which she still fills quite capably. The fact that she's now one of the more capable, versatile members of the team is great, but as created, she was just a regular woman - she's grown into her current role organically through the passage of time.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

dr_hermes
2009-08-08 04:57 am UTC (link)

It might be interesting to introduce a character like Sue (as she was in 1961), give her powers and watch her grow into them. It would have to be done rather quickly, so readers wouldn't give up on her. But it could give some nice insights. Some people never would become assertive and aggressive but would use their powers as unobtrusively as possible.. like a helpful unseen genie.

Actually, the way someone receives amazing powers and immediately becomes a tough crimefighter is a convention of the super-hero genre that I've never really liked. Even a montage or a few pages showing the character training and getting motivated helps make them more relatable.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	psychop_rex 2009-08-08 07:22 am UTC (link)
	Exactly - if a hero doesn't mess up every now and then, especially at the beginning of their career, or have a few moments where they think 'why the hell am I putting my life in danger like this?', then they're not human. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	dr_hermes 2009-08-08 02:55 pm UTC (link)
	This was something about early Spider-Man that really gave the strip power. He had doubts, felt he was in over his head and not appreciated, tried to quit. Echoes of this still make up his characterization. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

psychop_rex
2009-08-08 08:30 pm UTC (link)

It was a common factor with a lot of successful heroes back then, really - at Marvel in particular, of course, given that it was kind of Lee's trademark, but even at DC, where the characters were much more in the 'I am PERFECT' vein, people messed up every now and then. I can think of a number of moments in early Batman stories, for instance, where Batman and Robin have 'whoops! Butterfingers!' moments that would've gotten them killed, were they not very lucky people. I can remember one story in particular where Bats is so disgusted with a particularly egregious mistake he's made that he tells Robin to "kick me in the pants - hard - and don't ask questions!"

(Reply to this) (Parent)

	scarlettwyst 2009-08-13 01:43 am UTC (link)
	from that to http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/05/4five.jpg (i am too noob to make it be a picture :(() You have come a long way, baby. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	jlroberson 2009-08-13 01:47 am UTC (link)
	Like I said, nobody will ever want the "original" Sue back. (Reply to this) (Parent)

(Read comments) -