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kingrockwell ([info]kingrockwell) wrote in [info]scans_daily,
@ 2009-07-02 01:30:00

Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Current music:Queens of the Stone Age ~ "Into The Hollow"
Entry tags:char: alfred pennyworth, char: robin/damian wayne, char: robin/nightwing/dick grayson, creator: frank quitely, creator: grant morrison, publisher: dc comics, title: batman and robin

Batman and Robin #2

Pyg's jerks attack Gotham PD, trying to break Toad out.


Heh.

After the whole thing's over, Dick and Damian have words. Note that the whole issue is Dick telling the story of the incident to Alfred.








I started pulling this series because I remembered how much I like Frank Quitely's art that wasn't New X-Men, stayed for the characters. I know a lot of people are apprehensive about Damian being a Canon Sue, but this exchange kind of sets me at ease. No one's pretending that Damian isn't a little dickweed, but part of the Batfamily has always been to steer the Gotham's more misdirected heroes down the right path, and in my opinion Dick trying to take the little snot under his wing and do his best for him is an even better tribute to Bruce's legacy than wearing the cowl ever could be.

And Alfred being wise and fatherly is always a good time. Shame it's without snark, but I imagine Bruce's thickheadedness required more sarcasm to penetrate while Dick called for a softer approach.

Also, it's looking like we're getting Damian in a classic Robin role next issue, ropes and all! So what say, S_D, anyone else really like this issue?


(Post a new comment)


[info]foxhack
2009-07-02 05:41 am UTC (link)
I'm really digging this stuff. I know I usually criticize Morrison for his cracky stories, but I like story bits like these. The man can write conversations well.

I'm still apprehensive about Quitely's body art (and Damian) but the panel design is superb.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]kingrockwell
2009-07-02 05:50 am UTC (link)
I really disliked Quitely when New X-Men was the only thing of his I'd read, especially his faces. But after I read a few other things, Flex Mentallo especially, my opinion took a 180. He does really fun, energetic stuff!

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]foxhack, 2009-07-02 05:55 am UTC

[info]aaron_bourque
2009-07-02 05:50 am UTC (link)
So much AWESOME, but I still get the feeling sometimes Morrison's trying to impress somebody with his knowledge of minutia . . .

(Reply to this)


[info]uadlika
2009-07-02 05:59 am UTC (link)
I dunno...even though the words are meant to reassure Dick that he wasn't a snotty little brat, Alfred's expression says otherwise. Also he didn't outright deny it...

I picked up the first issue and wasn't impressed enough to add it to my weekly list (I'm too poor and too stressed). I think I will add it in the fall when I'm getting a regular paycheck again.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]icon_uk
2009-07-02 07:02 am UTC (link)
Dick asks him if he was "that much" of a brat, Dick knows he WAS a brat to a certain extent (all kids are), but Alfred is just reassuring him that, thanks to his upbringing, even Dick's brattish moments had been mild.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]sistermagpie, 2009-07-02 01:34 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]icon_uk, 2009-07-02 01:48 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sistermagpie, 2009-07-02 02:53 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]runespoor7, 2009-07-02 07:09 pm UTC

[info]thokstar
2009-07-02 06:01 am UTC (link)
I like Dick and Alfred. Damian bores me (and almost makes me wish for a Jason Toddesque phone poll), and the villains aren't really that interesting, IMHO.

(The villains are disturbing looking grotesque freaks. But there's nothing else there. Even with the Cirque L'Strange's gymnastic training, these are grunts that Dick and Damien should be beating up fairly quickly.)

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]mysteryfan
2009-07-02 06:08 am UTC (link)
Jason Todd has and had more oomph than Damian has. IMO.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]foxhack, 2009-07-02 06:13 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]runespoor7, 2009-07-02 06:20 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]mysteryfan, 2009-07-02 06:52 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]mysteryfan, 2009-07-02 06:32 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kagome654, 2009-07-02 01:37 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]foxhack, 2009-07-02 01:58 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kagome654, 2009-07-02 02:20 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]islwyn, 2009-07-03 12:57 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]perletwo, 2009-07-02 06:08 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]icon_uk, 2009-07-02 10:30 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]icon_uk, 2009-07-02 10:25 am UTC

[info]mysteryfan
2009-07-02 06:07 am UTC (link)
Some new kid's talking to Dick like that? Dick's 'pathetic impersonation makes a mockery of Batman's memory?'

Spoken by a new character created so that he can be just the... exact thing he's being--re difficult opposite to the status quo?

It's seems incredibly forced to me. Set up.

I get that that we're supposed to hate him until we love him. I get it.

And I'm glad to know that this Robin who can make the batmobile fly because he's even smarter than Bruce (and also same 10 year-old who crashed a car and killed a girl he was trying to make time with in btfc) is, in fact, specifically 10 years old.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]kingrockwell, 2009-07-02 06:38 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]mysteryfan, 2009-07-02 06:50 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]jlroberson, 2009-07-02 07:05 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]mysteryfan, 2009-07-02 07:11 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]jlroberson, 2009-07-02 07:23 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]mysteryfan, 2009-07-02 07:29 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]jlroberson, 2009-07-02 07:41 am UTC
PS - [info]jlroberson, 2009-07-02 07:38 am UTC
Re: PS - [info]mysteryfan, 2009-07-02 07:40 am UTC
Re: PS - [info]jlroberson, 2009-07-02 07:41 am UTC
Re: PS - [info]kingrockwell, 2009-07-02 07:46 am UTC
Re: PS - [info]sistermagpie, 2009-07-02 01:37 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]icon_uk, 2009-07-02 01:53 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mysteryfan, 2009-07-05 03:17 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kingrockwell, 2009-07-02 07:14 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]mysteryfan, 2009-07-02 07:24 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kingrockwell, 2009-07-02 07:28 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]mysteryfan, 2009-07-02 07:34 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kingrockwell, 2009-07-02 07:53 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]404glitch, 2009-07-02 09:20 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]runespoor7, 2009-07-02 06:12 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]404glitch, 2009-07-02 08:38 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]oath5, 2009-07-03 03:27 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]404glitch, 2009-07-03 09:08 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ex_stig213, 2009-07-02 07:33 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kusonaga, 2009-07-02 09:37 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ex_stig213, 2009-07-02 12:06 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]icon_uk, 2009-07-02 02:00 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]schmevil, 2009-07-02 04:31 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jlbarnett, 2009-07-02 09:09 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]batcookies, 2009-07-02 07:59 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]mysteryfan, 2009-07-02 08:13 am UTC
By the way, Ten - [info]jlroberson, 2009-07-02 08:55 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]icon_uk, 2009-07-02 10:13 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]mysteryfan, 2009-07-02 02:37 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jarodrussell, 2009-07-02 06:30 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]nymphgalatea, 2009-07-02 08:35 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mysteryfan, 2009-07-02 09:16 pm UTC

[info]sherkahn
2009-07-02 06:07 am UTC (link)
As always, Alfred for the win.

(Reply to this)


[info]runespoor7
2009-07-02 06:24 am UTC (link)
B-but I thought Dick had already reached the decision to play his own Batman in Batman #1. And I thought things were going alright with Gordon?... And the absence of Babs is getting to stretch every kind of suspension of disbelief, ever, editorial mandate of not spoiling what's going on with the Batgirls or not.

I can't wait until Damian develops an embarrassing crush on one of the girls.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]kingrockwell, 2009-07-02 06:41 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]icon_uk, 2009-07-02 07:07 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]mysteryfan, 2009-07-02 08:11 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]requiem2adream, 2009-07-02 08:15 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]runespoor7, 2009-07-02 06:16 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]darkknightjrk, 2009-07-02 05:34 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]runespoor7, 2009-07-02 06:21 pm UTC

[info]zegim
2009-07-02 06:29 am UTC (link)
I really liked it and left me wanting for more.

Basically, I want to know what happens next. That's something I miss in a lot of comics nowadays.

(Reply to this)


[info]ladymirth
2009-07-02 06:38 am UTC (link)
Is it just me or does anyone else find that panel ("Then I'll find a teacher I can RESPECT") where Damien tries out his grim 'n' gritty Clint Eastwood expression ten years too early completely effing hilarious?

Oh, Damien. You'd be such adorable comic relief if you weren't such a walking argument for infanticide.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]runespoor7, 2009-07-02 06:44 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]mysteryfan, 2009-07-02 06:55 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kingrockwell, 2009-07-02 06:46 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]jlroberson, 2009-07-02 08:51 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ladymirth, 2009-07-02 08:58 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]jlroberson, 2009-07-02 09:01 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ladymirth, 2009-07-02 09:10 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]jlroberson, 2009-07-02 09:18 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]darkknightjrk, 2009-07-02 05:38 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ladymirth, 2009-07-02 05:57 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ladymirth, 2009-07-02 09:15 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]jlbarnett, 2009-07-02 09:06 pm UTC

[info]jlroberson
2009-07-02 06:54 am UTC (link)
Y'know what's funny?

Christian Bale is more like Dick as Batman than Bruce.

(Reply to this)


[info]xandertarbert
2009-07-02 07:49 am UTC (link)
When a character starts complaining that what he's doing doesn't make sense, you know you're in trouble.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]ladymirth, 2009-07-02 08:46 am UTC

[info]jlroberson
2009-07-02 08:58 am UTC (link)
Something I notice I don't like. The unsubtle background color in the cave or whatever. That cheesy solarizing ripply purply thing. I have spent hours trying to AVOID that effect because it looks garish and amateurish, and here I see it drawing a salary? Goldman was right. No one DOES know anything.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]scottyquick, 2009-07-02 02:14 pm UTC

[info]kusonaga
2009-07-02 09:39 am UTC (link)
Good stuff between Dick and Alfred and Quitely has some good stuff here and there, but still not enough for me to pick it up.

(Reply to this)


[info]lieut_kettch
2009-07-02 11:07 am UTC (link)
Someone he'll respect? How about a former leader of the League of Assassins who can kick his butt with one hand tied behind her back? Who nonetheless acknowledges her shortcomings as a detective and defers to Dick and Tim when it comes to detective work?

(Reply to this) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]icon_uk, 2009-07-02 01:51 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]darkknightjrk, 2009-07-02 05:40 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kagome654, 2009-07-02 02:28 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]runespoor7, 2009-07-02 06:27 pm UTC
In which I describe my one false note in detail...
[info]sistermagpie
2009-07-02 02:26 pm UTC (link)
I did like this issue and I'm interested to see where they go with Damian's rescue. Toad's death was a good next step and I liked the cops scene and showing Dick without the control he wants.

These scans cover both my favorite and least favorite moment in the thing.

I love Alfred's advice to Dick about performing Batman. I love it when people remember Dick is show people, which Bruce would have played down, and it's a nice bonding moment with Alfred in my mind, because Alfred was an actor too. It's imo the right way to approach it so he doesn't get lost in trying to be a different person and Alfred would totally get that. Plus maybe Alfred can help--the 2 hams in the family are set loose!

However, I totally rolled my eyes at Alfred yet again working in a speech about Damian as if Damian is his OC instead of a kid. Damian works for me as a kid with certain specialized skills who's socially repulsive, therefore has no friends and clings to a fantasy that the man he's heard is his father will recognize him as his natural heir and validate him. (How upsetting when the guy's got sons already.)

Alfred's version of Damian's story makes Alfred sound a bit daft to me (as well as a bit as-you-know-Bob). Damian didn't have loving parents (I thought Talia was loving?) but he's with them now not out of a childish need for the father of his fantasies but because he recognized a nobler way to live? Please give that schtick up Alfred, along with how you can see he's inherited Bruce's courage and determination to do right (and I don't buy Dick's finding him aristocratic either). It's only GM who makes Alfred tell this story.

I like him as a character with certain unusual skills that hide a painfully ordinary kid so any hints that he's like a fantasy character with his father's noble heart just throw me right out. Dick and Alfred already share the commitment to making the kid Robin no matter what, so Alfred seems to be trying to convince me the reader about Damian the character far more than he's convincing Dick to do anything.

This for me tends to call attention to the central belief suspension question for me. I get how Damian is good for bringing out Dick's problems being Batman. I enjoyed the scenes showing that. But I have a bit more trouble buying why Dick has chosen to do that to himself. It's not that I couldn't buy Dick doing something like this, but I don't feel it with Damian. I've always felt like I understood Bruce's Robin decisions. I get the story logic behind Dick's decision, but it doesn't have the emotional logic I got from the others.

In fact, that's maybe why in my head it's beginning to form into a really strange, kind of creepy story: Alfred fastened onto Damian after Bruce's death, needing to see him as some spiritual heir (so basically encouraging Damian's own fantasy). Since Dick's so used to Alfred being sane and knowing about people, he's easily guilted into believing Alfred's got the kid's best interest at heart and ignores his own instincts. I guess because I really don't see why Damian as Robin is a tribute to Bruce. Trying to redeem the kid sure. Needing him to be Robin under these conditions? Seems more editorial.

Which is why I really think it would be great if it ultimately turned out that Damian wasn't Bruce's kid (especially if Alfred knew it).

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: In which I describe my one false note in detail... - [info]kagome654, 2009-07-02 02:36 pm UTC
Re: In which I describe my one false note in detail... - [info]sistermagpie, 2009-07-02 02:42 pm UTC
Re: In which I describe my one false note in detail... - [info]kagome654, 2009-07-02 02:53 pm UTC
Re: In which I describe my one false note in detail... - [info]sistermagpie, 2009-07-02 02:58 pm UTC
Re: In which I describe my one false note in detail... - [info]kingrockwell, 2009-07-02 03:00 pm UTC
Re: In which I describe my one false note in detail... - [info]sistermagpie, 2009-07-02 03:06 pm UTC
Re: In which I describe my one false note in detail... - [info]kingrockwell, 2009-07-02 03:32 pm UTC
I agree with your detail - [info]mysteryfan, 2009-07-02 05:46 pm UTC
Re: In which I describe my one false note in detail... - [info]lyraeinne, 2009-07-02 09:11 pm UTC
Re: In which I describe my one false note in detail... - [info]sistermagpie, 2009-07-02 09:38 pm UTC
Re: In which I describe my one false note in detail... - [info]mysteryfan, 2009-07-02 11:40 pm UTC
Re: In which I describe my one false note in detail... - [info]runespoor7, 2009-07-02 10:36 pm UTC
Re: In which I describe my one false note in detail... - [info]sistermagpie, 2009-07-03 03:06 pm UTC

[info]lyraeinne
2009-07-02 04:21 pm UTC (link)
I have to say I really like where this character arc is going for Dick. It’s a little heartbreaking to see him so battered, trying so hard to live up to Bruce’s ideal and failing, but it really works so much better from a character standpoint than if he’d just owned the cowl and kicked that snotty brat into line from day one. Regardless of what his intentions were when he chose to take on the cowl, right now he is trying too hard to be Bruce in the role, and with that he’s losing the things that made him so effective as Robin and especially as Nightwing.

On that note it seems that he’s trying to build Damian’s confidence in him as a mentor by showing him the kind of trust in the field that Bruce did for his partners, and it’s not working simply because it’s a kind of confidence that Damian has neither earned nor even asked for at this point, given that he still sees Dick as something between a roadblock and a stepping stool. To really be someone’s mentor or even their partner, there needs to be an intrinsic respect and understanding between all parties, and Dick’s expecting it to be there already with Damian because it was for him and Bruce. But clearly if the partnership is ever going to work something drastic needs to change, and with Dick being older it falls on him to change his tactics and establish the new dynamic.

But even given that, it worries me a little that there seems to be much more potential for growth and development on Dick's side than Damian's. I can deal with it being mutual, given that Dick is still quite young for the kind of parental responsibility that working with Damian implies, but it's Damian who ultimately has more work to do in terms of organically owning his new role.

(Reply to this)


[info]moneyless_jew
2009-07-02 07:15 pm UTC (link)
See? No childhood rape, folks.

(Reply to this)


[info]chipsnopotatoes
2009-07-03 02:20 am UTC (link)
poor dick. he looks so crestfallen. he needs to invest in an 18" ruler.

spare the rod, spoil the child.

(Reply to this)


[info]kingrockwell
2009-07-03 03:40 am UTC (link)
Guys, I just want to say how pleased I am with this discussion. This is the second time today I've woken up/come home to find 40+ comments in my inbox, and that's really exciting! I posted these pages to get people talking, and I'll be damned if you didn't deliver. We've had a lot of interesting perspectives here, and reading them has been really cool for me.

Pat yourselves on the back, S_D, we really are the best comics discussion community! I need to post new comics more often!

(Reply to this)


[info]psychop_rex
2009-07-03 03:48 am UTC (link)
OK, Damian getting embedded in the wall was funny.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]kingrockwell, 2009-07-03 04:01 am UTC

[info]runespoor7
2009-07-03 06:33 am UTC (link)
And while I'm at it, ilu Grant Morrison for the commentary on the costume. It gives a nice realistic touch that Dick wouldn't like the cape.

(Reply to this)


[info]regnet
2009-07-12 02:53 am UTC (link)
Is the second out? Damn.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]kingrockwell, 2009-07-12 03:16 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]regnet, 2009-07-12 03:19 am UTC


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