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proteus_lives (proteus_lives) wrote in scans_daily,
@ 2009-05-25 23:00:00

Current location:	Outer Dark
Entry tags:	creator: butch guice, creator: chuck dixon, creator: rick burchett, publisher: wildstorm, theme: war, title: storming paradise

Storming Paradise
Greetings True Believers! Memorial Day had me thinking about one of my favorite series right now. Wildstorm's "Storming Paradise." It's a historical "What-If?" drama. The premise is that the atomic bomb test was a disaster and the Allies had to go through with the invasion of Japan in order to end WWII. It's great because of the level of the what if. The decision to use the atom bomb is still debated today. Was it necessary? Was it justified? What about the other options? (Personally I think it was the best card in a bad hand and the other options were far worse.)

This series explores one of those options. The invasion of Japan and how it might have played out. It got me thinking, would the atomic bombing of Japan have played out the same way in the Marvel or DC universe?

My question to my fellow S_Der's is this: How would the presence of super-powered beings, magic, aliens, etc. affected this moment in history? Would it have been the same? Would things have been different? Can this question be answered?

This is a scene from issue #5 where General Patton and his personal detachment have been surprised by a Japanese Banzai charge. (In this reality, Patton was transferred for the invasion and didn't die in an accident after combat had ended in Europe.)

Part of me wishes that Patton had died in a matter such as this. I didn't agree with everything he said or did but he was an interesting and weird son of a bitch. I think he would much rather had an end like this.

Historical context on the invasion of Japan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_japan

(Post a new comment)

	mcity 2009-05-25 10:43 pm UTC (link)
	Patton is oddly poetic in that first scan. And not swearing nearly enough. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	vignettelante 2009-05-25 11:23 pm UTC (link)
	...Icon love. (Although that means that Batman is Simon o.O) (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	mcity 2009-05-25 11:35 pm UTC (link)
	"I'm Bruce Wayne, the Batman! Mine is the the breath that is taken in the heavens!" (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	vignettelante 2009-05-25 11:44 pm UTC (link)
	"Are you dense? Are you retarded or something? ... WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK I AM!?" (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	mcity 2009-05-25 11:48 pm UTC (link)
	~~Would that make Nightwing Yoko? And Superman Leeron?~~ (Reply to this) (Parent)

	proteus_lives 2009-05-26 10:31 am UTC (link)
	The swearing would come later, during the hand-to-hand. Patton was known for his love of poetry. (Also, this death is epic enough to warrant a Dethklok song in the background.) (Reply to this) (Parent)

	(Anonymous) 2009-05-26 05:31 pm UTC (link)
	He's referencing the Battle of Zama (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Zama). He was fascinated by the Punic wars. That _might_ be one of Patton's own poems (yep, he wrote quite a few). He was quite a character. --alcimines (Reply to this) (Parent)

majingojira
2009-05-25 11:52 pm UTC (link)

How would the presence of super-powered beings, magic, aliens, etc. affected this moment in history? Would it have been the same? Would things have been different? Can this question be answered?

Frankly,it depends on the power of the heroes in question. Few heroes of the era were quite as powerful as they would become later.

It also depends on how the powers are distributed, and how cost effective mass production is (generally answer is "Not Cost Effective).

I've been working in a low powered world setting where supers DID take part in WWII. The result being that WWII ends as normal, but Hitler and his occult madmen go underground and continue to fight a secret war until his death in 1954. The Nazi's remain alive and even more devlishly secretive and continue to pop up even into the 21st century, but never as a world power--only as a terrorist group.

But that's the only difference the intervention of the Supers and Paranormals does to the War.

It's sort of the Hitler Time Travel Excemption Act for Supers.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	proteus_lives 2009-05-26 10:33 am UTC (link)
	"Frankly,it depends on the power of the heroes in question. Few heroes of the era were quite as powerful as they would become later." Interesting point. If they weren't that powerful, they would have to be restricted to speciality missions or structured as spearhead units. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	greenmask 2009-05-26 02:03 am UTC (link)
	He'd want to die with an emphatic slur on his lips? He sounds like a charmer. (Reply to this) (Thread)

Context.

proteus_lives
2009-05-26 10:39 am UTC (link)

At the time the US had been at war with Japan for five years and the concept of PC didn't exist yet. Racism was a huge part of the conflict between the US/Japan. (On both sides, Japan was one of the most racist cultures on Earth at the time.)

I've read a lot about Patton, if he was fighting the Germans he would have said "Krauts" or Italians "Wops". Also at the time, it would barely count as a racial insult. It'd be like calling a Canadian a "Cancuk."

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	Re: Context. volksjager 2009-05-26 05:14 pm UTC (link)
	Admiral Halesy was FAR worse. He welded all the 1908 friendship medals to the Bombs used during the "Dolittle raid" to give them back. He Hated like in a phobia, the Japanese. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	Re: Context. proteus_lives 2009-05-26 06:01 pm UTC (link)
	The hatred of the Japanese was extremely high. One Bomber comander, (I forget who it was but it may have been LeMay) said "After the war, Japanese will be spoken only in Hell." (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	Re: Context. volksjager 2009-05-26 06:38 pm UTC (link)
	That was indeed Curtis Lemay. There is a fine section in that Film about Bob Macnamara, "Fog of war". Mac was under him in WW2 and they often spoke about the fire bombing of Japanese cities and how ethical it was/was not. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	Re: Context. unknownscribler 2009-05-26 11:44 pm UTC (link)
	Frankly, not at all a misplaced emotion. They were perhaps even worse than the Germans. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

Re: Context.

proteus_lives
2009-05-27 12:18 am UTC (link)

Too True. The Japanese had been raping Korea since 1905 and China since 1932. They are welcomed as liberators in many parts of Colonial Asia but like the Germans in Russia that image was quickly destroyed by their racist and unbelievable level of brutality.

The bataan death march. Death camps in China, the rape and slaughter of British prisoners, thousands of Korean and Chinese women taken as sex slaves, the vivisection of bomber crews captured in Japan. The Rape of Nanking, the list goes on and on.

I don't glory in any human misery but the more I've read about the Imperial Japanese period, the more I think "What you sow is what you reap."

At least the Germans treated SOME opponents and people differently. The Japanese give no quarter to anybody.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

	Re: Context. greenmask 2009-05-27 06:44 am UTC (link)
	Yeah, I know. It's still kind of ugly. (IN A WAR COMIC I KNOW, PEOPLE ARE DYING. Priorities, girl!) (Reply to this) (Parent)

	daningram 2009-05-26 09:32 pm UTC (link)
	Good Heavens, how rude is he to be so disrespectful to those trying to kill him? ;) (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	proteus_lives 2009-05-26 11:11 pm UTC (link)
	Everyone knows only British Generals are required to be polite to the point of death! ;) (Reply to this) (Parent)

	greenmask 2009-05-27 06:43 am UTC (link)
	:P Yeah, I know. I am a pansy child of peace! (Reply to this) (Parent)

	foxhack 2009-05-26 02:21 am UTC (link)
	I find the StarCraft logo in the front cover more jarring than anything written or shown in this book. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	proteus_lives 2009-05-26 10:34 am UTC (link)
	That's a great icon! :) (Reply to this) (Parent)

khaosworks
2009-05-26 07:29 am UTC (link)

God knows what the history is now given the number of Crises we've had, but I'm assuming that the Spear of Destiny still prevented magic-based and supernatural heroes (like the Spectre and Dr. Fate) from entering Axis-occupied territory on New Earth, so history had to play out the same way it did (more or less) on Earth Prime.

Ditto in the Marvel Universe, since they didn't have anyone with Superman-level powers that could take on armies by themselves. Except that the Human Torch and Toro killed Hitler in his bunker.

(Reply to this)

	drsevarius 2009-05-26 09:38 am UTC (link)
	I'm not surprised someone like Dixon would write this. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	proteus_lives 2009-05-26 10:40 am UTC (link)
	How so? I don't get what you're implying. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	drsevarius 2009-05-26 11:35 am UTC (link)
	It's a known fact that Dixon is right-wing. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	Really? proteus_lives 2009-05-26 12:06 pm UTC (link)
	What are some examples of that in his writing? I take it you think that this scene or Storming Paradise in general is right-wing, how so? (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	Re: Really? drsevarius 2009-05-26 12:29 pm UTC (link)
	You seriously don't know how Dixon is conservative? http://bighollywood.breitbart.com/bwillingham/2009/01/09/superheroes-still-plenty-of-super-but-losing-some-of-the-hero/#IDComment15106298 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuck_Dixon#Political_Controversy (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	Re: Really? proteus_lives 2009-05-26 02:31 pm UTC (link)
	No, I'm not much a DC fan and he didn't hit my radar until Storming Paradise. Still, I don't see anything "right-wing" about SP. (Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: Really?

daningram
2009-05-26 04:09 pm UTC (link)

I agree that Dixon is conservative, but I don't think the idea that a land invasion of Japan would be bloody to an epic degree is a right wing idea.

Truth be told, I think it's closer to common sense than anything else. At the time, Japanese civilians threw themselves off cliffs to avoid being captured. Back to the wall and in their homeland, I can't see the Imperial forces choosing suicide.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	Re: Really? unknownscribler 2009-05-26 11:51 pm UTC (link)
	Indeed. One of the really big problems was that the Japanese had it hammered into them that surrendering instead of dying made them less than human -- their barbaric mistreatment of their prisoners of war arose as a direct consequence of this. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	Re: Really? proteus_lives 2009-05-27 12:19 am UTC (link)
	It was obscene what the Japanese did to POWs/surrendered civilians and captured airmen. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	Re: Really? daningram 2009-05-31 03:22 pm UTC (link)
	IMO, it's even moreso when you consider how little they seemed to have owned up to their past actions. Germany's did a complete about face, accepting responsibility for the actions of the nazis. Japan would rather believe that they were acting in self defense and don't seem to have owned up to any war crimes, as a nation and even 50 years later. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	volksjager 2009-05-26 05:11 pm UTC (link)
	I was SO glad this book came back out. I thought it was lost forever. I can't say I agree with all the Olympia' tagents the writers came up with, but its interesting none the less. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	I was worried too! proteus_lives 2009-05-26 06:05 pm UTC (link)
	I'm a huge history buff and this series was an automatic for me. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	Re: I was worried too! volksjager 2009-05-26 06:35 pm UTC (link)
	The only thing I don't really like is that the Bomb is German made. Japan has program of their own located now in what is now North Korea. It may have born fruit... Have you ever read 1946 ? (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	Re: I was worried too! proteus_lives 2009-05-26 11:10 pm UTC (link)
	That's a good one. I also like reading historical looks at the proposed operation. Next time I get an Amazon coupon, I might just this book called "Hell to Pay" about what the invasion would have been like. An pausable answer for the Japanese atomic program would be that they were overrun by the Russians or Chinese before they could return to Japan. (Reply to this) (Parent)

Storming Paradise. Out, finally! And Patton...
(Anonymous)
2009-05-26 10:50 pm UTC (link)

I've been loving this comic, but I didn't know issue 5 had come out. I was so disappointed in the delays because with me buying so few comics, and so few in single issues, this was the last thing bringing me into the store (it's a long drive). I've been in the shop once since #4 came out, for Free Comic Day.

I'll go back for 5 and 6. But I think I'm a strictly Amazon.com trades guy now.

Check this out: Patton contemptuously whizzing in the Rhine.
http://www.scrapbookpages.com/EasternGermany/Buchenwald/GeneralPatton.html

(This is my first post on SD. It's nice to have anonymous posting so I can give it a try without an account. I'll sign this for some consistency if I post more.)
Marky Mark

(Reply to this)