InsaneJournal

Tweak says, "It's not spew!"

runespoor7 (runespoor7) wrote in scans_daily,
@ 2009-09-21 22:41:00

Entry tags:

char: robin/red hood/jason todd, char: speedy/mia dearden, creator: judd winick, publisher: dc comics, title: green arrow

Request: Jason-Mia interaction
Context: Red Hood has teamed up with a local villain to distract Green Arrow and a visiting Batman, and has kidnapped Speedy. Due to scan limits, I can't post the pure gold that is Bruce and Ollie's dialogue as they follow.

They're in her highschool gym, where he's freed her, given her back her bow and arrows, and is giving her all the motivation in the world to want to kick his ass. He's already taunted her that she can only attack from afar as long as she's got arrows, and when she runs out she knows he'll come for her. She replies that no, it can be over when she puts an arrow in his eye. He reminds that she's not even gonna try that. Non-lethal shots only, right? (Jason's info is good because it's recent.)

title: green arrow, char: speedy/mia dearden, char: robin/red hood/jason todd, creator: judd winick

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	icon_uk 2009-09-21 09:19 pm UTC (link)
	Yeah, more pointless Jason "I'm a street kid who lived on the street... when I was a kid" waffle in amongst his irritating "I'm the master of all sort of things like... for some reason... bow and arrows to the extent I can critique your style". All part of Winick trying, I assume, to provide some meaning in his resurrection. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	runespoor7 2009-09-21 09:21 pm UTC (link)
	How is critiquing the class issues of the Batman mythos pointless? (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	aaron_bourque 2009-09-21 09:24 pm UTC (link)
	Because class issues have very little if anything to do with the Batman mythos? (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

runespoor7
2009-09-21 09:30 pm UTC (link)

So... the billionaire who goes out at night to thrash poorer people isn't an issue?

And let's talk about the Robins. Dick hasn't been marked with it as much as the others, since at the time he was created kid sidekicks were mostly ment to be cyphers, and his background as a kid from a circus was mostly an excuse to have him perform incredible feats. Otherwise he tended to be portrayed as a 'normal', middle-class kid.

Jason, Tim and Steph, however are right in the middle of it. Let's spot, out of these three, the one who didn't die. Let's spot the one who wasn't depicted as either an incompetent or a bad seed.

However, you're right, I shouldn't have used the word 'mythos'. That was stupid of me.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	icon_uk 2009-09-21 09:37 pm UTC (link)
	Jason, as shown pre-mortem, was essentially an ordinary kid too. He rarely, if ever used the "I'm from the streets" bit as motivation for anything. It's only since he died that's been focussed on more than anything else. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

runespoor7
2009-09-21 09:50 pm UTC (link)

He was introduced as stealing the tires to the Batmobile, then we learned his dad had done to jail and worked for Two-Face, then we learned his mother had died from what was either illness either an OD...

Implicitely, there's also his very strong dislike of people who abuse women; it doesn't show merely with Garzonas (who, too, is rich and spoiled and sees himself as above the law) but with violent pimps. Jason grew up in Crime Alley, probably he witnessed to that kind of scene before, when he was unable to prevent it.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

icon_uk
2009-09-21 10:03 pm UTC (link)

Yes, but that's as much his origin as Dick's was being from the circus. It didn't really impact on his actual nature after it was referenced in his origin. It was only really reintroduced for "A Death in the Family" to drive the plot.

Jason comes across as a pretty much perfectly normal kid otherwise, somewhat more short tempered than his previous incarnation or Dick, but NOT as some sort of "street tough".

And his loathing of Garzonas had little to do with his social standing, beyond the fact if gave him immunity. ANY Robin, and indeed most people, would have acted that way.

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runespoor7, 2009-09-21 10:17 pm UTC

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icon_uk, 2009-09-22 12:28 am UTC

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runespoor7, 2009-09-22 06:10 am UTC

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bluefall, 2009-09-22 03:23 pm UTC

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pepperspray101, 2009-09-22 10:28 pm UTC

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benicio127, 2009-09-24 03:35 am UTC

	kagome654 2009-09-21 11:20 pm UTC (link)
	It strikes me as something that should have been focused on a great deal (seriously, that sort of thing impacts people a great deal) so I consider it correcting an oversight. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	icon_uk 2009-09-21 09:38 pm UTC (link)
	Oh, and Tim is also from a VERY wealthy background. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	runespoor7 2009-09-21 09:46 pm UTC (link)
	Yes, that's exactly the point I was making. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

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icon_uk, 2009-09-21 10:07 pm UTC

A Lonely Place of Dying -

runespoor7, 2009-09-21 10:29 pm UTC

Re: A Lonely Place of Dying -

icon_uk, 2009-09-22 12:24 am UTC

Re: A Lonely Place of Dying -

runespoor7, 2009-09-22 06:00 am UTC

Re: A Lonely Place of Dying -

lynxara, 2009-09-22 06:11 am UTC

Re: A Lonely Place of Dying -

runespoor7, 2009-09-22 04:28 pm UTC

Re: A Lonely Place of Dying -

lynxara, 2009-09-22 04:50 pm UTC

Re: A Lonely Place of Dying -

icon_uk, 2009-09-22 07:13 am UTC

Re: A Lonely Place of Dying -

runespoor7, 2009-09-22 05:16 pm UTC

Re: A Lonely Place of Dying -

sistermagpie, 2009-09-22 05:42 pm UTC

Re: A Lonely Place of Dying -

mysteryfan, 2009-09-22 07:29 pm UTC

Re: A Lonely Place of Dying -

sistermagpie, 2009-09-22 08:01 pm UTC

Re: A Lonely Place of Dying -

kingrockwell, 2009-09-24 05:09 am UTC

Re: A Lonely Place of Dying -

mysteryfan, 2009-09-24 09:32 am UTC

Re: A Lonely Place of Dying -

sistermagpie, 2009-09-24 03:10 pm UTC

Re: A Lonely Place of Dying -

mysteryfan, 2009-09-24 04:01 pm UTC

Re: A Lonely Place of Dying -

runespoor7, 2009-09-24 05:40 pm UTC

Re: A Lonely Place of Dying -

icon_uk, 2009-09-22 07:05 pm UTC

Re: A Lonely Place of Dying -

runespoor7, 2009-09-22 07:23 pm UTC

Re: A Lonely Place of Dying -

sistermagpie, 2009-09-22 07:47 pm UTC

	the_jeff 2009-09-22 06:05 am UTC (link)
	"However, you're right, I shouldn't have used the word 'mythos'. That was stupid of me." Ai! Ai! Chthulhu bhatm'n? (Reply to this) (Parent)

	mysteryfan 2009-09-22 03:59 pm UTC (link)
	So... the billionaire who goes out at night to thrash poorer people isn't an issue? He goes out to fight crime and ends up protecting people of all classes. From criminals. I never know what to make of the class thing with Tim and Steph, since they were both created so close together, and by the same writer. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	starwolf_oakley 2009-09-22 04:30 pm UTC (link)
	I don't remember the exact issue, but Leslie Thompkins was worried about Bruce beating up poor people. There was a flashback to how he stopped some cruel billionaire boys back in prep school. Anyone remember that? (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

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mysteryfan, 2009-09-22 04:41 pm UTC

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runespoor7, 2009-09-22 04:43 pm UTC

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mysteryfan, 2009-09-22 05:28 pm UTC

runespoor7
2009-09-22 04:39 pm UTC (link)

He goes out to fight crime and ends up protecting people of all classes. From criminals.

Yes. It doesn't make him any less of a billionaire beating on people who have turned to crime because they were struggling to survive. That the reader is repeatedly told that Jason could've grown up to be a criminal is interesting in that regard; it's a reminder that Gotham is a social nightmare. That Gotham is poor and corrupt is as inevitable as the Joker staying alive, despite everything Bruce has been portrayed doing for social justice.

I'm not defending the criminals or condemning Bruce's actions, but privilege linked to money is inherent to the character. So in that sense, class issues are going to be a theme of his story.

Despite his other failings, I don't think Dixon can be blamed for how incompetent Steph was written later down the road. I think he was looking to create a contrast with Tim's character, and among the contrasts there was their social classes.

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mysteryfan, 2009-09-22 04:46 pm UTC

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runespoor7, 2009-09-22 05:03 pm UTC

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mysteryfan, 2009-09-22 05:34 pm UTC

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sistermagpie, 2009-09-22 05:44 pm UTC

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starwolf_oakley, 2009-09-23 04:39 pm UTC

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mysteryfan, 2009-09-24 09:27 am UTC

	icon_uk 2009-09-21 09:35 pm UTC (link)
	What point did it really serve? Does he think that pointing out that Ollie and Bruce were both rich and from a different social class to her is going to have any impact? Why? (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

runespoor7
2009-09-21 09:44 pm UTC (link)

Part of it, I think, is that he may honestly believe he's warning her. After all, he is giving her a clue to Batman's ID. It's a token of good will. He got fucked over by Bruce, and he thinks that the same is going to happen to Mia. By letting her know he's the same as her, he's basically letting her know that when things go wrong with Green Arrow, he could be her ally.

And there's the Bruce factor. He's also doing all this because he wants Bruce to know that he knows things, he can have an impact on Bruce's friends, Bruce's people.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	icon_uk 2009-09-21 10:08 pm UTC (link)
	Except Mia wasn't one of Bruce's people, I don't think they'd even met had they? (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	runespoor7 2009-09-21 10:20 pm UTC (link)
	Ollie is, though. He's a friend and he's a rich old guy. Who runs around in a costume, fights crime, and pretends to take care of teenagers. And Ollie freaked out when Mia was kidnapped. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

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scottyquick, 2009-09-21 11:23 pm UTC

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unknownscribler, 2009-09-22 01:07 am UTC

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starwolf_oakley, 2009-09-22 01:45 am UTC

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unknownscribler, 2009-09-22 04:08 am UTC

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runespoor7, 2009-09-22 06:13 am UTC

	scottyquick 2009-09-21 11:17 pm UTC (link)
	I really think I won't ever be able to argue with you again so long as you have that icon. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

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icon_uk, 2009-09-22 12:29 am UTC

sherkahn
2009-09-21 09:43 pm UTC (link)

Jason is rambling on in order to show Speedy he understands her methods, her way of thinking, her tactics. That's why the weapons go from long range to short range to very intimate (the twisted blades). Whatever "distancing" Speedy does to move beyond her past, Jason is bringing it in her face, trying to turn her to his cause.

Jason knows he will need an ally, sooner or later, that he can trust. Not necessarily his own Robin, but an Arrow to his Bat, should he need to face off against other heroes. Strength in numbers.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

sistermagpie
2009-09-22 03:02 am UTC (link)

I don't have a problem with the class issues in there now and then. I don't think it's as bad as the rich kids doing all right and the poor ones doing badly. If you look at everybody they cover most of the spectrum, from Damian the aristocrat, through Bruce the super rich, Tim the almost-super rich, Barbara the middle class cop's kid, Dick's family presumably would have made more money than some in the circus as headliners but his life would have been with the working class in that small circus, I assume, then Steph's lower middle class and Jason was on the street.

I can see subtle ways that writers show them each relating differently to Bruce's wealth and I don't mind Jason bringing it up. I tend to think of it as something Jason retroactively created, like he's clinging to it as part of his personality now in ways he didn't then. It's all a part of defining himself as not-Bruce. I do sometimes not buy the special knowledge he has. I can believe he'd have some, but I can't really buy him as training himself to such a high level after his death.

Re: the class issues determining who did well and who didn't, to me
the reason Dick and Tim are believable as the most succesful Robins is that their personalities were designed to make them good students and tireless workers eager to learn what Bruce was teaching at a young age.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

runespoor7
2009-09-22 07:40 pm UTC (link)

Damian has other issues than mere socio-economics (kinda like Cass and Helena), and thank god for Dick, but otherwise and except for Dick, it's all a little worrying. Babs is Oracle, but she got KillingJoke'd. Jason died, Steph died - leaving aside the incompetent/a bad seed/they deserved it angle - both deaths were supposed to be permanent. Bruce and Tim are okay.

I tend to think of it as something Jason retroactively created

I don't think entirely. He probably did, at least a little, but I doubt a kid fresh from the streets wouldn't have felt something in Bruce Wayne's world. Now, whether Bruce would have understood it, him, is another question. I guess it depends on how crazy you imagine him as being at the time. The more Batman#416-looking-for-a-replacement-Dick you see him, the more he's likely to have been blind to Jason's reactions and feelings. And that Red Hood!Jason would refuse to admit that Bruce might or at one point did understand him is a no brainer.

Jason's training was provided in part by Talia, giving him the names or putting him in touch with the same people who'd trained Bruce himself, so I'm inclined to let that one slide.

their personalities were designed
Yup. It's convenient that of the three Robins created in times when verisimilitude or character psychology became much of an issue, the only one to receive that gift is the rich one.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

sistermagpie
2009-09-22 07:56 pm UTC (link)

Oh yes, I definitely think Jason would have felt a huge change at entering Bruce's world--and I don't know how much Bruce would have understood it. He would no doubt have recognized it, since it's not like he's blind, but I like it when the comics remind us that Bruce's life really is rare. It's like the person who once commented that Batman has two modes: a butler preparing your clothes and food and dropped into the rain forest with a rusty spoon and nothing else. There's a lot about life in different backgrounds he just wouldn't get.

And it would be interesting if that could lead him to see Dick and Jason as more alike than they actually were.

It is interesting to wonder if he's not most comfortable in that area with Tim.

It's convenient that of the three Robins created in times when verisimilitude or character psychology became much of an issue, the only one to receive that gift is the rich one.

Yes--Jason was created to be different, presumably. He'd been too much of a Dick clone and they were obviously trying out a bad boy idea. I know with Tim there were comments where the were going the opposite way, making him more like Bruce, being rich and educated. While Steph's motivation was more about her father. Though it's interesting to imagine if Steph was a high-class girl whose father was a big time criminal, how she would have been different, even if a lot of things were the same. I could still imagine her having problems, but it would probably be different. Could have been interesting.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

pepperspray101
2009-09-22 10:56 pm UTC (link)

Ya know I have to wonder where Cass fits in this whole thing.

She lived in isolation till she was 8, and then she was pretty much a mute runaway till she was 15. (how she got from some island in South Asia to Gotham City I don't know...)

I guess, girl's an alien in comparison. Wait...there ya go. Perhaps she's like the poorest of illegal immigrants, hiding from mainstream society until she met Babs. Then she was isolated again, until she learned to talk.

It always seemed to me (especially when she interacted with others her age) that she was like the stereotype of the quiet Chinese exchange student. Super studious, smart, but socially unavailable/awkward/different. A real foreigner...

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

runespoor7
2009-09-23 06:41 am UTC (link)

I don't think the issues with Cass have much to with economics, actually. Her situation is so special it hardly ever reads like anything that could have a comparison in the real world. Money is a non-issue for her, and I never got the feeling that the way she was written had anything to do with that.

I'd say the issues with her characterization are more on the side of genetical determinism than social determinism. She's the daughter of Cain and Shiva, so she's exceptionally good at what she does, and she turns bad. Most of the other members of the Batfamily fit into that pattern as well, the social background one and the genetical one aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.

It always seemed to me (especially when she interacted with others her age) that she was like the stereotype of the quiet Chinese exchange student.

Not sure. She seemed to get on okay with the members of Young Justice when she met them, and of course there's always Steph. Until Bruce decided Cass should stay be Batgirl and shun boys, I don't think she ever had much problems in that direction, as opposed to a lack of inclination for non Bat-related life.

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