InsaneJournal

Tweak says, "There's a hero in us all."

runespoor7 (runespoor7) wrote in scans_daily,
@ 2009-09-21 22:41:00

Entry tags:

char: robin/red hood/jason todd, char: speedy/mia dearden, creator: judd winick, publisher: dc comics, title: green arrow

Request: Jason-Mia interaction
Context: Red Hood has teamed up with a local villain to distract Green Arrow and a visiting Batman, and has kidnapped Speedy. Due to scan limits, I can't post the pure gold that is Bruce and Ollie's dialogue as they follow.

They're in her highschool gym, where he's freed her, given her back her bow and arrows, and is giving her all the motivation in the world to want to kick his ass. He's already taunted her that she can only attack from afar as long as she's got arrows, and when she runs out she knows he'll come for her. She replies that no, it can be over when she puts an arrow in his eye. He reminds that she's not even gonna try that. Non-lethal shots only, right? (Jason's info is good because it's recent.)

title: green arrow, char: speedy/mia dearden, char: robin/red hood/jason todd, creator: judd winick

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	Re: A Lonely Place of Dying icon_uk 2009-09-22 12:24 am UTC (link)
	I'm not sure what you're trying to show there beyond what I've already said about Tim coming from a wealthy family, but isn't being spoiled. When his family lost nearly all their money some years later, Tim handled it better than his Dad did. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

Re: A Lonely Place of Dying

runespoor7
2009-09-22 06:00 am UTC (link)

I never argued that Tim was spoiled, I'm showing you that Tim being 'wealthy and educated' is something that was touched upon more than once, and that was in fact part of the very way he was introduced to the reader.

My point about the Robins is that the rich Robin was treated in a significantly better way from those that weren't. It's not just about the Robins, either. It shows in the difference between how Babs, Helena and Kate Kane got treated when they took a Batcostume. One of them didn't have to overcome Bruce's resistance. Oh, it's the one that's from the same social background as him.

Yes, it's probably incidental. No, we're probably not supposed to read much into it. The fact is, 'Oh, Jason was lower class and her turned out badly, and then he was replaced by Tim, who came from a good family the same side of the streets as Bruce and who did very well as Robin' leaves a strange impression.

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	Re: A Lonely Place of Dying lynxara 2009-09-22 06:11 am UTC (link)
	Superhero comics tend to observe a lot of deeply conservative and elitist social values. The point at which this seriously bothers you is often the point at which it's time to move on to other things. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

Re: A Lonely Place of Dying

runespoor7
2009-09-22 04:28 pm UTC (link)

I'm trying to answer this without being inflammatory. Okay, first, you have no idea how seriously the points I'm describing bother me or otherwise. Second... Well, I'm reminded of arguments around shonen manga and female characters, but I'm sure other example can be found in comics. This isn't a private club. If I notice a story-telling trend, whether or not I like the original material, I'm going to comment on it.

For the record, what bothers me is not the class issues in the Batfamily. I think they're fascinating. I'm bothered by claims that they don't exist.

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Re: A Lonely Place of Dying

lynxara
2009-09-22 04:50 pm UTC (link)

Fans are always going to claim that class issues-- and to some extent race and gender issues-- aren't present in mainstream superhero comics. Reading superhero comics in light of real-world issues like that generally makes the material feel loathesome and sickening.

In particular, confronting the class issues at work in the Batman stuff is impossible without coming to the conclusion that most of the characters involved are selfish monsters so steeped in white privilege that they've lost all grasp of reality. Batman's behaviors and the world around him in fact bear no true relationship to real experiences. They are best allegorical.

Batman is escapist wish-fulfillment entertainment to most people so they want the problems there to be, basically, the sort of problems you wished you had. Melodramatic problems that are at best symbolic representations of actual pain and conflict. Class is an intractable life-destroying problem that requires very sophisticated writing to explore adequately. Even the most sophisticated Batman stories would not really be capable of it.

No, superheroes aren't a private club, but they are an element of a genre that trends toward stupidity. Extraordinary creators can invest superheroes with real meaning but this does not happen on a regular basis. If I see someone who appears intellectually dissatisfied by superhero crud, I'm going to suggest going elsewhere because I sincerely believe doing so would make that person happier. There are comics that can talk about class issues-- and they also don't feature fanciful assholes in capes. This is not coincidental.

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	Re: A Lonely Place of Dying icon_uk 2009-09-22 07:13 am UTC (link)
	The scene you picked from was Tim's introduction, so was relevant there, just like Jason's "street" nature was to his introduction. And Tim being the "rich" Robin wasn't treated particularly better than "poor" Dick. Kate's treatment was artificial as hell because they DIDN'T interact. Dick intereacted more with her than Bruce ever did. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

Re: A Lonely Place of Dying

runespoor7
2009-09-22 05:16 pm UTC (link)

I'm hating myself a lot right now for not saving the scan I found once, where Ives (I think) asked Tim what was in his lunchbox, and Tim answered with something that sounded a) complicated, and b) expensive.

Dick being lower class is mostly noticeable in Devin Grayson's stuff, for which I adore her, and in Dixon's first Robin: Year One, the 1994 annual. Again, Dick's history is not comparable to that of Jason, Tim, and Steph.

And one character being lower class and not dead, incompetent, a criminal or several at once does not negate the pattern otherwise observed. It's only at best the proof that DC's politics aren't done on purpose.

Kate's treatment was artificial as hell because they DIDN'T interact.

No argument here. She was still the one who came from the same social background as Bruce.

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Re: A Lonely Place of Dying

sistermagpie
2009-09-22 05:42 pm UTC (link)

This is kind of an issue I have with Damian, actually. Because I agree there are class differences--Bruce is a billionaire so they're just there, and I like it when they come out naturally. I do think that his adopted kids have all had a slightly different relationship to Bruce's money and class, with only Tim, imo, seeming to easily take them as his easily.

Then there are the personalities of each person, which sometimes map a little differently. Jason now is "too angry" which can be linked to his class, Steph has some blocks that make her limited (which I wouldn't link directly to her background as Jason's anger is in the text), Babs the daughter of a cop is fine, as is Dick the carny.

But Damian has the rebellious, antagonistic reaction to being taught of Jason or Steph (but far beyond either of them) yet doesn't seem to suffer for it the way they do. And his blood is the only one that seems explicitly tied to his being a hero no matter what his behavior says.

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Re: A Lonely Place of Dying

mysteryfan
2009-09-22 07:29 pm UTC (link)

Agreed! It's a real problem with Damian for me, too. Because of his blood, he's supposedly inherited heroic qualities. I mean, they are all of different classes, but Damian's like royalty and far above the rest of them. Even though he's plenty angry and kills and behaves terribly, we're supposed to know he'll overcome because underneath, he's Bruce's. And a little prince amongst the regular folk. He even treats Alfred as though Alfred is beneath him. He treats Alfred like a servant, and nobody else does that. I think the way he treats Alfred is a strong indicator of what social class we are to see Damian as coming from.

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Re: A Lonely Place of Dying

sistermagpie
2009-09-22 08:01 pm UTC (link)

I know it's just what they're going for with the character, but it is basically a situation where we know Damian's good enough straight off, and almost anything they want him to do he's expected to have done due to his blood and upbringing. I remember someone once pointing out that he'd have been trained since birth in war tactics and strategy or something and I thought...yeah, that would give him a fifth grade level education in tactics and strategy. But anyway, his personality problems are something to be indulged and amused by without any real fear that he might not be cut out for the job.

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	Re: A Lonely Place of Dying kingrockwell 2009-09-24 05:09 am UTC (link)
	I know we go back and forth about this a lot, but I don't think it'll be that Damian is Bruce's that'll set him straight as it's that he's around the people who really are Bruce's. I like to think it will, at least. When Damian starts being an okay guy, I think it'll be more Dick's influence than Bruce's DNA. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	Re: A Lonely Place of Dying mysteryfan 2009-09-24 09:32 am UTC (link)
	Damian's already started being an okay guy. Batman and Robin, so far, is not the story of two of Bruce's sons. It's the story of one son and one ward named Dick, who's a family friend. I don't even think GM is even aware that he's writing it that way, he's just really enamored of his character being the biological son of Batman, and he writes it as such. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

Re: A Lonely Place of Dying

sistermagpie
2009-09-24 03:10 pm UTC (link)

I was surprised when I finally read all of B&R 3 and realized that Dick had nothing to do with what appeared to be a turnaround in Damian on S_D. In fact, it wasn't really a turnaround, just both of them agreeing to forget Damian's walkout didn't occur. Dick's main job was to give Damian positive reinforcement, presumably with the idea that that's what he really needs.

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	Re: A Lonely Place of Dying mysteryfan 2009-09-24 04:01 pm UTC (link)
	Very much agreed. (Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: A Lonely Place of Dying

runespoor7
2009-09-24 05:40 pm UTC (link)

When Damian starts being an okay guy, I think it'll be more Dick's influence than Bruce's DNA.

It's probably going to go that way, but the fact that Morrisson has spent so much time making a big deal out of Damian's genetics means that the only way for it to stop mattering would be if he's revealed not to Bruce's son after all. He's already Robin because he's Bruce's biological son.

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Re: A Lonely Place of Dying

icon_uk
2009-09-22 07:05 pm UTC (link)

But again, that's more or less set dressing. If Tim had been shown making a big deal about such a thing, I'd cede the point, but he never does, he's almost embarrassed by it usually.

I don't recall Devin paying much attention to Dick being lower class, though I confess I have up on her run during the "Blockbuster wins, Dick has no friends" arc.

However, as with much of Devin Grayons's writing, there's the germ of a great idea in there, but usually handled with the delicacy of a rhino running through a small helpless kitten store. Dick was suddenly an ethnic Romany with angst about the likelihood of him ending up in jail like so many of his kin.

Now there would probably be an excellent story about Dick finding out more about his family, about what being a Romany might mean. Instead we get a teeth-grindingly annoying Romany grandpa who isn't, Batman being borderline racist, and random bouts of Night!angst.

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Re: A Lonely Place of Dying

runespoor7
2009-09-22 07:23 pm UTC (link)

Whether Tim makes or not a big deal out of his social background doesn't affect said social background. Whether Tim is written as aware of it or not, he's rich.

I think she did through his parents. We hear and learn a lot more about Dick's parents and life back at the circus in her Gotham Knights and her run on Nightwing than we almost ever had before. Suddenly Dick's parents counted. That's not a condemnation of the earlier writers; publishing context was different when Dick was created, and later on he was well-established enough that he continued to work as a character even without that.

Dick was suddenly an ethnic Romany with angst about the likelihood of him ending up in jail like so many of his kin.
You know, given the recent Gotham Adventures post, I find it very hard to fault her for that.

Batman being borderline racist
Or Dick being oversensitive and seeing something that wasn't there. As in, racism instead of classism.

about what being a Romany might mean
Yeah, I didn't agree with her when she wrote that Dick couldn't speak Romany. Even if he hadn't been speaking it with his parents - given that Devin Grayson's Mary wasn't born a Romany it was possible - I imagine there was little chance Bruce wouldn't encourage him to learn his father's language.

Anyway, at this stage it simply wasn't important enough to Dick that he would do soul-searching on it. It was part of who he was, but it wasn't something that he was interested in investigating. He came from it, he didn't go towards it.

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Re: A Lonely Place of Dying

sistermagpie
2009-09-22 07:47 pm UTC (link)

Did she say specifically he couldn't speak it? I remember him telling his "grandfather" that he couldn't understand half of what he said, but that sounded to me a lot like things I've heard from people I knew, or kids I've known, who grew up wiht a second language. That is, that sometimes they control how much they want to admit they speak and when.

Which might be fanwank on my part. But I imagined it as Dick growing up around Romany speakers, hearing it spoken regularly, so that no matter how out of practice he might be at the moment he'd be fluent within a couple of days if he had to speak it, based on my experience with people who grew up with another language. A lot of European carny talk is based on Romany, like the stuff Dick knew in B&R.

Just my way of saying that I love making his background matter too.

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