InsaneJournal

Tweak says, "I'm not a twink!"

runespoor7 (runespoor7) wrote in scans_daily,
@ 2009-09-21 22:41:00

Entry tags:

char: robin/red hood/jason todd, char: speedy/mia dearden, creator: judd winick, publisher: dc comics, title: green arrow

Request: Jason-Mia interaction
Context: Red Hood has teamed up with a local villain to distract Green Arrow and a visiting Batman, and has kidnapped Speedy. Due to scan limits, I can't post the pure gold that is Bruce and Ollie's dialogue as they follow.

They're in her highschool gym, where he's freed her, given her back her bow and arrows, and is giving her all the motivation in the world to want to kick his ass. He's already taunted her that she can only attack from afar as long as she's got arrows, and when she runs out she knows he'll come for her. She replies that no, it can be over when she puts an arrow in his eye. He reminds that she's not even gonna try that. Non-lethal shots only, right? (Jason's info is good because it's recent.)

title: green arrow, char: speedy/mia dearden, char: robin/red hood/jason todd, creator: judd winick

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	starwolf_oakley 2009-09-21 09:11 pm UTC (link)
	I posted most of this on the old board. While well-written and interesting, it's confusing as I'm not sure what Jason wants to "teach" Mia. Beyond "You and I are from the streets, for reals, dawg." (Reply to this) (Thread)

	comicoz 2009-09-21 09:15 pm UTC (link)
	I don't recall seeing the "lesson" either - seemed like it was just to embarass Ollie. And this was when they randomly decided she had a boob window, I see. Hated that so much. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	runespoor7 2009-09-21 09:18 pm UTC (link)
	Mia is his homegirl. Jason got fucked over by Batman. He's looking out for her. And possibly he's already looking for a Robin of his own. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	icon_uk 2009-09-21 09:19 pm UTC (link)
	Yeah, more pointless Jason "I'm a street kid who lived on the street... when I was a kid" waffle in amongst his irritating "I'm the master of all sort of things like... for some reason... bow and arrows to the extent I can critique your style". All part of Winick trying, I assume, to provide some meaning in his resurrection. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	runespoor7 2009-09-21 09:21 pm UTC (link)
	How is critiquing the class issues of the Batman mythos pointless? (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	aaron_bourque 2009-09-21 09:24 pm UTC (link)
	Because class issues have very little if anything to do with the Batman mythos? (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

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runespoor7, 2009-09-21 09:30 pm UTC

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runespoor7, 2009-09-22 06:10 am UTC

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bluefall, 2009-09-22 03:23 pm UTC

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benicio127, 2009-09-24 03:35 am UTC

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kagome654, 2009-09-21 11:20 pm UTC

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icon_uk, 2009-09-21 09:38 pm UTC

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runespoor7, 2009-09-21 09:46 pm UTC

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icon_uk, 2009-09-21 10:07 pm UTC

A Lonely Place of Dying -

runespoor7, 2009-09-21 10:29 pm UTC

Re: A Lonely Place of Dying -

icon_uk, 2009-09-22 12:24 am UTC

Re: A Lonely Place of Dying -

runespoor7, 2009-09-22 06:00 am UTC

Re: A Lonely Place of Dying -

lynxara, 2009-09-22 06:11 am UTC

Re: A Lonely Place of Dying -

runespoor7, 2009-09-22 04:28 pm UTC

Re: A Lonely Place of Dying -

lynxara, 2009-09-22 04:50 pm UTC

Re: A Lonely Place of Dying -

icon_uk, 2009-09-22 07:13 am UTC

Re: A Lonely Place of Dying -

runespoor7, 2009-09-22 05:16 pm UTC

Re: A Lonely Place of Dying -

sistermagpie, 2009-09-22 05:42 pm UTC

Re: A Lonely Place of Dying -

mysteryfan, 2009-09-22 07:29 pm UTC

Re: A Lonely Place of Dying -

sistermagpie, 2009-09-22 08:01 pm UTC

Re: A Lonely Place of Dying -

kingrockwell, 2009-09-24 05:09 am UTC

Re: A Lonely Place of Dying -

mysteryfan, 2009-09-24 09:32 am UTC

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sistermagpie, 2009-09-24 03:10 pm UTC

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mysteryfan, 2009-09-24 04:01 pm UTC

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runespoor7, 2009-09-24 05:40 pm UTC

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icon_uk, 2009-09-22 07:05 pm UTC

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runespoor7, 2009-09-22 07:23 pm UTC

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sistermagpie, 2009-09-22 07:47 pm UTC

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the_jeff, 2009-09-22 06:05 am UTC

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mysteryfan, 2009-09-22 04:41 pm UTC

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mysteryfan, 2009-09-22 05:28 pm UTC

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mysteryfan, 2009-09-24 09:27 am UTC

	icon_uk 2009-09-21 09:35 pm UTC (link)
	What point did it really serve? Does he think that pointing out that Ollie and Bruce were both rich and from a different social class to her is going to have any impact? Why? (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

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runespoor7, 2009-09-21 09:44 pm UTC

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runespoor7, 2009-09-21 10:20 pm UTC

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icon_uk, 2009-09-22 12:29 am UTC

sherkahn
2009-09-21 09:43 pm UTC (link)

Jason is rambling on in order to show Speedy he understands her methods, her way of thinking, her tactics. That's why the weapons go from long range to short range to very intimate (the twisted blades). Whatever "distancing" Speedy does to move beyond her past, Jason is bringing it in her face, trying to turn her to his cause.

Jason knows he will need an ally, sooner or later, that he can trust. Not necessarily his own Robin, but an Arrow to his Bat, should he need to face off against other heroes. Strength in numbers.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

sistermagpie
2009-09-22 03:02 am UTC (link)

I don't have a problem with the class issues in there now and then. I don't think it's as bad as the rich kids doing all right and the poor ones doing badly. If you look at everybody they cover most of the spectrum, from Damian the aristocrat, through Bruce the super rich, Tim the almost-super rich, Barbara the middle class cop's kid, Dick's family presumably would have made more money than some in the circus as headliners but his life would have been with the working class in that small circus, I assume, then Steph's lower middle class and Jason was on the street.

I can see subtle ways that writers show them each relating differently to Bruce's wealth and I don't mind Jason bringing it up. I tend to think of it as something Jason retroactively created, like he's clinging to it as part of his personality now in ways he didn't then. It's all a part of defining himself as not-Bruce. I do sometimes not buy the special knowledge he has. I can believe he'd have some, but I can't really buy him as training himself to such a high level after his death.

Re: the class issues determining who did well and who didn't, to me
the reason Dick and Tim are believable as the most succesful Robins is that their personalities were designed to make them good students and tireless workers eager to learn what Bruce was teaching at a young age.

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runespoor7, 2009-09-22 07:40 pm UTC

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sistermagpie, 2009-09-22 07:56 pm UTC

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pepperspray101, 2009-09-22 10:56 pm UTC

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runespoor7, 2009-09-23 06:41 am UTC

	jaybee3 2009-09-21 09:11 pm UTC (link)
	How old is Jason supposed to be these days anyway? He was younger than Dick (mid-20s) and older than Tim (17-18 now) so I'm guessing 21 or 22? Only a few years older than Mia is here, no? (Reply to this) (Thread)

	lipsofpoison 2009-09-21 11:41 pm UTC (link)
	Jay is either 19 or 20 by now. He's either Stephs age or a year older than her. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

pepperspray101
2009-09-22 11:02 pm UTC (link)

He's older than Stephanie. Steph is a year older than Tim, but I know Cass was older than Tim by two years at least. And Bruce once took Cass to visit Jason's grave and said they were the same age. So basically, Cass and Jason are the same age...(probably 20 if not 21).

That's the problem with making Steph go to college. She has to be at least 18, but then that would make Tim 17, and the guy's wandering Europe on his own. Sure doesn't look 17 to me...hm.

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lipsofpoison, 2009-09-22 11:08 pm UTC

	lipsofpoison 2009-09-21 11:44 pm UTC (link)
	Dick was 18/19 when Jason was made Robin. Jason was 12/13 then. He died 18 months later then 6 months later, Tim was 13. Tim is now (very likely) 18, so it gives us a rough idea of how old everyone else is. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	yaseen101 2009-09-21 09:19 pm UTC (link)
	Why are they kicking Winick off Batman, again? (Reply to this) (Thread)

	aaron_bourque 2009-09-22 01:12 am UTC (link)
	It was never meant to be permanent. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	taggerung301 2009-09-21 10:10 pm UTC (link)
	Jason's line about how he's done things . . . poor guy still can't stand him though (Reply to this)

	parsimonia 2009-09-22 12:04 am UTC (link)
	What is this from? (Reply to this) (Thread)

	kingrockwell 2009-09-22 03:02 am UTC (link)
	I know it's Winick and McDaniel, so the title's prolly Green Arrow. I'll see if I can't track down an issue number. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	kingrockwell 2009-09-22 03:09 am UTC (link)
	The arc is #'s 69-72, but if I had to guess from the covers, I'd say this scene is in #72. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	parsimonia 2009-09-22 03:10 am UTC (link)
	Oh, thank you! =) (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

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kingrockwell, 2009-09-22 03:34 am UTC

pepperspray101
2009-09-22 11:08 pm UTC (link)

This whole thing with kidnapping Mia made no sense, but damn if I didn't enjoy it. :)

I always kept wondering what kind of conversation Jason would have had with Cass, if she had stuck around Gotham City as Batgirl. Since Cass's parents were both criminals, but she's still fighting the "good" fight. I can't help but imagine Jason looking at Cass, shaking his head and thinking..."What is up with that?" Where does she fit in his world of logic?

(Reply to this) (Thread)

runespoor7
2009-09-23 06:51 am UTC (link)

He'd probably start thinking that just like Batman replaced him with a new, said-to-be-better Robin, he also replaced his broken Batgirl with a new, improved model, and be furious on Babs' behalf.

He'd also say to Cass pretty much the same things that he's telling Mia re: mentor as a father figure.

I don't think he would read class issues into it, but given that Jason's class issues are intimately correlated to his Bruce issues, he certainy would find a way to make everything be all about 'Bruce is a nasty selfish bugger who's never gonna do anything for you'.

Meanwhile, Cass would see right through his bullshit and feel sorry for him and kick his ass when he tried killing people and start bringing him snacks. Because he's family! And he wants to be Robin! And then she'd kick his ass again when he started going after Dick or Tim.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

benicio127
2009-09-24 06:00 pm UTC (link)

...I feel like this scene is particularly "worrisome" in terms of what Jason's "secret" is.

I think it's just really, really, really frustrating that DC seems to want to make so much unhappiness for Jay. I mean... C'MON! No wonder why the guy needs some serious therapy.

Let's see:
a) Dad abused him
b) First mom died, OD. (Didn't he nurse her for a year on the streets or something?)
c) Survives on the streets
d) Becomes Robin and then all he wants to do is FIND HIS REAL MOMMY
e) "Disobeys" Batman coz he's an impulsive teen (OH NOES! HE SHOULD DIE FOR THAT) and gets betrayed by real mommy and beaten to death and blown up by the friggin' Joker
f) Comes back to life to find out the Joker is STILL AROUND AND STILL KILLING AND MAIMING PEOPLE AND THAT BATMAN NEVER AVENGED HIM
g) Tossed in Lazarus pit by Talia and also made out with her, which may or may not be a good thing.

And yet on top of all this, he may or may not have this secret that may or may not be related to this talk he had with Mia about them being cut from the same cloth/possibly going thru the same experiences (Jason forced into prostitution as well?)

Just. SIGH.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

runespoor7
2009-09-24 06:20 pm UTC (link)

(Jason forced into prostitution as well?)

That's the way I read the scene, but my reaction to is is very different from yours. Winick is my go-to Jason writer, and I'm not above wanting some gender equality in my comics wrt sexual abuse. I also think given Jason's life on the streets, it's very possible at he encountered sexual abuse, at least as a threat, and it doesn't feel fair to avoid the issue.

I didn't know about a); d'you have an issue number or something? The Jason kinda completist in me is interested.

d) Becomes Robin and then all he wants to do is FIND HIS REAL MOMMY

That never ends well in the Batfamily. Never ever ever ever. Too bad Cass didn't get the memo.

e) "Disobeys" Batman coz he's an impulsive teen (OH NOES! HE SHOULD DIE FOR THAT)

Having not yet read the entirety of a Death in the Family, may I ask what it was? Because I got the feeling that he 'disobeyed' Batman's orders by staying with his mum, like Bruce had told him to, and put on the Robin suit, which Batman hadn't told him to.

g) Tossed in Lazarus pit by Talia and also made out with her, which may or may not be a good thing.

You know Jason's Bruce issues? I'd call it a bad thing. As a wild guess, and given Jason's history of worst karma ever. And it was more Talia kissing him out of the blue than anything reciprocated.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

benicio127
2009-09-24 09:13 pm UTC (link)

See, thing is I agree partially on "equal abuse" HOWEVER, with Mia it's meant to give us sympathy for her b/c she's technically a "good person" now.

But with Jason? I just get the feeling it will be created less as pity than as another means of detesting/shafting him, you know?

I didn't know about a); d'you have an issue number or something? The Jason kinda completist in me is interested.

I have to ask someone who's far more knowledgeable than me. But I know it's alluded to, at least in the Teen Titans 29 issue, where Jay goes in to prove his worth against Tim. I was going to post that issue anyways, so I'll do it in a bit.

Jay says: "Easy? What do you know about easy, Tim? You had a father who looked after you."

Having not yet read the entirety of a Death in the Family, may I ask what it was? Because I got the feeling that he 'disobeyed' Batman's orders by staying with his mum, like Bruce had told him to, and put on the Robin suit, which Batman hadn't told him to.

It's been over a year since I read ADITF. IIRC, Batman's orders were for him to not go searching for his mom (recklessly, if you will), but he disobeyed and did anyways. But I may be wrong on that.

You know Jason's Bruce issues? I'd call it a bad thing. As a wild guess, and given Jason's history of worst karma ever. And it was more Talia kissing him out of the blue than anything reciprocated.

OH yeah, I don't think it was reciprocated on Jason's part. Talia's just... well, she kisses him and pushes him off a cliff. I don't know exactly why she wanted to keep him (potential pet?), but she had him for a year at least and he was catatonic most of that time. I'm not sure if it had anything to do with her obsession w/ Bruce or wanting to be motherly or a bit of both.

Other than Jason having a crush on Donna (not reciprocated, tho), I believe a friend of mine mentioned there was a Rena girl back in his Robin days that he had a crush on as well. (I don't know if that was reciprocated either.) ...But yeah, again, more cases of the Worst Karma Ever TM.

SO that's why I think -- it would be one thing to have the sexual abuse history if I felt like they weren't doing it to have fans detest him even more. Which is just the way it seems like with DC. Plus... hasn't the kid been through enough already?!

(Reply to this) (Parent)