InsaneJournal

Tweak says, "You're weak"

04nbod (04nbod) wrote in scans_daily,
@ 2009-08-24 14:02:00

Entry tags:

char: batman/bruce wayne, char: karate kid/val armorr, creator: brad meltzer, group: justice league of america, group: legion of super-heroes, in-joke: herodickery, publisher: dc comics, series: martial arts week

Martial Arts Week: Karate Kid and Batman

Ignore the red narration boxes, they are irrelevant.

Remember what Alfred taught you Bruce, when you cheat you only cheat yourself.

(Its sad Val is dead again, I want a re-match in LOSH. They wouldn't have Batman lose in JLA although I'm impressed they acknowledged Val is better)

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	shanejayell 2009-08-24 03:21 pm UTC (link)
	He fought the Threeboot KK too. Was cooler IMHO. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	04nbod 2009-08-24 03:22 pm UTC (link)
	I've purged that brave and the bold issue out of my mind, much like Superman beyond. Professional fan fic. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	halloweenjack 2009-08-24 04:35 pm UTC (link)
	When KK is accusing Bruce of cheating, that's because Bruce kicked him in the nuts? Oh, Val. Stay the hell away from our dirty dirty century. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	04nbod 2009-08-24 05:19 pm UTC (link)
	That is exactly what he did. Poor val, assuming batman would play by the rules of dignified combat (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	(Anonymous) 2009-08-24 06:27 pm UTC (link)
	That always sounded like an oxymoron at best. The point of fighting is to survive until the next one and outside of tournaments you're not going to get points or have rules for what you can or cannot do. Besides, if you didn't think to wear a cup it's your own damn fault if you can no longer make children. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	04nbod 2009-08-24 08:01 pm UTC (link)
	on second thoughts, I don't think he does. Black lightning zapped him from behind, you can see the electricity around his feet (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	dr_hermes 2009-08-24 10:00 pm UTC (link)
	Yeah, it's completely wrong to think someone who has mastered full-contact martial arts (let alone any number of styles as Karate Kid has) wouldn't have learned to defend against a front kick to the groin from the very start. The idea that "dirty fighting" is a secret seems naive. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	schala_kid 2009-08-24 06:40 pm UTC (link)
	Jason did it to Dick and Tim did it to Jason, the Bat-family has mastered the art of ball-kicking. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	halloweenjack 2009-08-24 09:13 pm UTC (link)
	And now we know the real reason why Stephanie couldn't continue as Robin--no chance for reciprocation. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	sd_mouser 2009-08-24 11:03 pm UTC (link)
	Sure there's a chance of reciprocity. But before you kick Stephanie in the 'nads you gotta find Tim! (Reply to this) (Parent)

schala_kid
2009-08-24 06:37 pm UTC (link)

Val is definitely the best fighter in the DC universe, and to my knowledge he's also the only Legionnaire without powers.

I love Bruce reaction about Val being 3 points higher than him, the way he quickly stops talking when he finds the data I bet in his mind he literally went "WTF Clark?!" also in the panel before he's interrupted by Val, where he says "I'm listed--" it looks like he's pouting.

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	omgwtflolbbqbye 2009-08-24 07:53 pm UTC (link)
	I can totally see Bruce and Clark having a editwar on the Justice League wikipedia. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	volksjager 2009-08-24 08:54 pm UTC (link)
	Totally LOL ! (Reply to this) (Parent)

	volksjager 2009-08-24 07:06 pm UTC (link)
	I have to go with Bats on this one. No one could beat him in combat. I wish DC had done more with the post IC of Batman and co. taking the "year off" to re-build the Batman and show more of his fighting tech. and philosophy. Perhaps like the Superman "New Krypton", seem like they knew Bruce would be put on a shelf after FC and just dropped it. (Reply to this) (Thread)

killermoth1
2009-08-24 08:52 pm UTC (link)

I'm so sick of Bats being the invincible hero of DC. He's apparently not just the world's greatest detective at this point, but also the world's greatest martial artist, strategist and smartest.

He's one of my favourite heroes but he just keeps degenerating into Batgod, to the point where rather than reaching a thematic finale Morrison's RIP storyline's entire point was "no one can beat Batman!". Even Bruce Timm wasn't immune to putting Batman front stage in Justice League. Frankly I'd prefer something a little less exciting that doesn't pander to the immature masses that scream "Batman can beat anyone with or without prep time!".

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	volksjager 2009-08-24 08:58 pm UTC (link)
	For instance I like how in JLA/ Avengers Captain America (who I would say HAS to be the best hand-to-hand fighter in the Marvel universe) and Batman realize from basic posture and stance that they are too evenly matched to beat each other. Everything has a god, it's just human nature to create rankings... (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

dr_hermes
2009-08-24 10:14 pm UTC (link)

It's an article of faith with Batman fans that he's the best at everything (Doc Savage in a cape). But, just speaking personally, I would like to see him played up more as a detective than a martial artist. He could still be very good, able to hold his own against most fighters... but most of his energy should be going into solving crimes by deduction and finding clues, rather than hand-to-hand. I'd see Batman as someone who prefers to maneuver his enemies into capture rather than slugging it out with them. And having him over his head against a top martial artist wouldn't diminish him, in my opinion, just make him a more workable character. But I'm usually in a minority.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

volksjager
2009-08-24 11:12 pm UTC (link)

Personally, I would say that point was resolved in the first Batman the animated movie , where Bruce is able to solve the crime and get the bad guys,but notices he they are not afraid of him.

He has to be super kick ass just to scare the shit out of the street vermin to drop it all when he appears.

It also makes the point when Bane breaks his back and hold Bats up to the spotlight saying he beat him.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	dr_hermes 2009-08-24 11:22 pm UTC (link)
	It's a matter of preference. I would say that if Batman kept sending criminal after criminal to jail and they couldn't stop him, then they would certainly be afraid of him. Not because he would beat them up but because, once he got after them, they would be certain to go to jail. But different readers have different preferences. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	volksjager 2009-08-24 11:52 pm UTC (link)
	Well, like you said it was a preference, I tend to go with the " a superstitious cowardly lot ". (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	dr_hermes 2009-08-25 02:41 am UTC (link)
	There you go. We can order different items from the menu at the restaurant and still enjoy dinner. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	jelly_ace 2009-08-24 11:04 pm UTC (link)
	Well, maybe Bats would not be the greatest martial artist. But that coupled with his fast mental skills and strategy skills, maybe he's got a better edge against his opponents? (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	dr_hermes 2009-08-24 11:24 pm UTC (link)
	Absolutely. He doesn't have to be able to slug it out with the world's best fighters to capture them. Trickiness, weaponry, strategy are better than sheer fighting skill in the long run. Hunters bag tigers without wrestling with them, after all. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

dustbunny105
2009-08-25 03:05 am UTC (link)

This. I always associated Batman more with trickiness, weaponry and strategy than head-on hand-to-hand combat skills. Sure, he's a great fighter, but he's vengence, the night; he's the fear that keeps you awake, the shadow on the wall, the monster it becomes, the nightmare in your skull. His entire entire persona is based around criminals being a superstitious, cowardly lot. It seems to me that some guy who runs around in a silly costume beating thugs up plays into that to a much lower level than a guy who stalks around in a silly costume and might just walk out of the darkness of what is meant to be a safe space because he knows how to find you and can beat you into a pulp if he has to.

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yaseen101
2009-08-25 06:42 pm UTC (link)

I always viewed that ninjutsu, kung fu and boxing being Bruce's forte while stuff like Karate and Judo being the things he knows the basic concept of rather than being a master of. I always viewed him, like you said, someone who uses trickery, weaponry and strategy when fighting but I also imagine that he is also a slight of hand type that at first sight when you throw a punch makes you think that he is catching it but switches at the last moment suddenly dodges it and karate chops your neck or something.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

	Point. thanekos 2009-08-24 09:50 pm UTC (link)
	Gratuitious Pic Counterpoint (Reply to this) (Thread)

	Re: Point. 04nbod 2009-08-24 11:09 pm UTC (link)
	but that is evil superman vs extra multiverse batman. Its a bit different to a c-list character beating the real batman because they are legitimately better (Reply to this) (Parent)

	Re: Point. volksjager 2009-08-24 11:14 pm UTC (link)
	Hopefully some will post the KK LOSH issue where to pass the test he has to beat Superboy (hint , hint). (Reply to this) (Parent)

dr_hermes
2009-08-24 09:57 pm UTC (link)

See, this is what I mean about not every artist being good at storytelling. The coloring is pretty, there are nice computerized toning effects. But what is going on. When Batman blocks Karate Kid's blow, what direction is the Kid's hand coming from? Does Batman deflect that shuto, then draw back the same arm to throw a punch before the Kid can react? Come on.

The two panels where the Karate Kid is taken out are vague as hell. Batman's dialogue suggests he was faking an injury and putting his weight on the other leg so he could get his opponent off guard. The next panel shows the Kid getting hurt someone and there's a vague effect that could be suggesting impact (like Batman has kicked Karate Kid in the stomach or lower.)

But the next panel shows Black Lightning standing behind the fallen Kid. As someone noted above, there is a nimbus around the Kid's feet. Did Black Lightning stun him somehow? Did Batman get a martial arts master with such an obvious trick and a sucker punch? It's not clear and neither dialogue nor captions offer clarity.

Lots of the older artists were not as glossy or pretty, but they knew how to show what was going on. They knew how to lead the reader's eyes from one panel to the next, and they knew how to show movement.

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	I thought (Anonymous) 2009-08-24 11:48 pm UTC (link)
	That it was obvious Black Lightning attacked from behind. Karate Kid actually won that fight. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	Re: I thought zordboy 2009-08-25 04:46 am UTC (link)
	Except for the whole 'winding up unconscious' thing. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	jelly_ace 2009-08-24 11:01 pm UTC (link)
	I was expecting Bats against Ralph Macchio. Or Hilary Swank. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	kingrockwell 2009-08-25 03:34 am UTC (link)
	The movies actually had to pay DC for the right to use the name. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	ninjapeps 2009-08-25 12:15 am UTC (link)
	Remember what Alfred taught you Bruce, when you cheat you only cheat yourself. "Wong Fei's most important lesson: when outmatched, cheat." -Batman to Bronze Tiger, Brave and the Bold episode 11 (Reply to this)

	pi216 2009-08-25 12:28 am UTC (link)
	There's no cheating; there's just 'assessment of what you can afford to lose in order to win'. (Reply to this)

	lieut_kettch 2009-08-25 01:04 am UTC (link)
	I like his fight with Val-Prime better. Especially since Val is constantly vacillating between hero worship and contempt for Bats. (Reply to this)

	batcookies 2009-08-25 01:16 am UTC (link)
	I despise "Batman is the best martial artist in the DCU" writing at the best of times, but having him hold his own against a guy whose martial arts make him nearly Superman-like takes the cake. (Reply to this) (Thread)

bluefall
2009-08-25 02:07 am UTC (link)

I'm kind of stuck here - on the one hand, Uber Kung Fu Batman is hateful and I want him to go away. On the other hand, Val drives me kind of insane too. "My kung fu makes me Superman" isn't disgusting enough when it's dragging down Batman, they had to make an entire character built around that premise? And make him a jackass? I don't know who I want to lose miserably more.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	dr_hermes 2009-08-25 02:20 am UTC (link)
	What's "disgusting" about a character using advanced martial arts as a super-power? Do you feel that way about Cassandra Cain? (Reply to this) (Parent)

	zordboy 2009-08-25 04:48 am UTC (link)
	Yeah, don't mind me. I loved that scene, I for one really enjoy Batman as martial arts god. It's not that he has the pure skills, but the other stuff rattling around in Batman's brain, the strategy and tactical stuff and the ability to think quickly in an emergency, combined with the sheer skill, is what makes him so deadly in hand-to-hand. (Reply to this)

geoffsebesta
2009-08-25 02:45 pm UTC (link)

I love the old 70s Karate Kid stuff, where they stopped in the middle of fights to explain exactly which future-judo move he was gonna use to whale on somebody, so I think he can take anyone.

Plus this fight is weak as hell. It's not just the storytelling in the art, it's the damn dumb dialogue and the nut punch. Seriously, Karate Kid is used to fighting aliens who have no objective but to attack the most vulnerable point on a human, which is that. Terrible.

Batman's tough enough to survive in the JLA with no powers. Karate Kid's tough enough to survive in the Legion. The Legion is probably the best fighting force ever assembled in comics (at least four Superman-powered people, Braniac 5, and Element Lad, plus eighty of their closest friends and Bouncing Boy....)

(Reply to this)