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	punishermax 2009-08-24 01:06 am UTC (link)
	The way Ollie types makes me think that he's secretly box_in_a_box. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	foxhack 2009-08-24 01:10 am UTC (link)
	Oh man. Now I'm going to imagine every single thing he posts as being read with Ollie's voice and I HATE YOU FOR IT. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	punishermax 2009-08-24 01:13 am UTC (link)
	SuperAsshole AWAY! ~flies off~ (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	ashtoreth 2009-08-24 01:24 am UTC (link)
	Maybe you should reread the comm rules? Box probably wouldn't be offended, but this kind of fan harassment is unpleasant for others. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	punishermax 2009-08-24 01:26 am UTC (link)
	It's just a joke on how he types, I'm not calling him a dickhead or anything. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	ashtoreth 2009-08-24 01:30 am UTC (link)
	It was the 'asshole' thing. :( I'm old fashioned, it kinda bugged me. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	punishermax 2009-08-24 01:32 am UTC (link)
	I was taking about myself. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	ashtoreth 2009-08-24 01:35 am UTC (link)
	Okay, now it makes more sense. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	foxhack 2009-08-24 01:32 am UTC (link)
	Um, I think he called himself SuperAsshole. :p (Reply to this) (Parent)

	sistermagpie 2009-08-24 02:08 am UTC (link)
	Love this story! It's a great, kind of unexpected take on their rivalry. Or should I say, Ollie's one-sided rivalry.:-) (Reply to this)

	jlroberson 2009-08-24 02:13 am UTC (link)
	"The least you could do is flinch and scream out my name"? Funny, he said the same thing to Katar. But neither are faking it, for Ollie or anyone. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	punishermax 2009-08-24 02:14 am UTC (link)
	BA DUM TISH (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	jlroberson 2009-08-24 02:22 am UTC (link)
	Thank you, thank you,. try the veal! (Reply to this) (Parent)

	kingrockwell 2009-08-24 02:38 am UTC (link)
	I remember this one from old S_D. It is a great story! (Reply to this)

	brandiweed.livejournal.com 2009-08-24 04:02 am UTC (link)
	Why does Ollie look like a shaved Sabretooth in the above-cut scan? (Reply to this)

	trelas 2009-08-24 10:55 am UTC (link)
	You left out my favorite part, where Ollie deduces that there is no way someone as broken as Bruce Wayne could be Batman. It's such an awesome page for both characters. As for the laugh, I never thought it was because his identity was still a secret to Ollie, but rather something deeper. I'm not explaining, as it requires a lot of context pages from the story. (Reply to this)

	jelly_ace 2009-08-24 11:14 am UTC (link)
	Can't...can't do it Oliver. I give up, and something dies inside. Maybe the only thing left living for. Oh, Bruce. It's just racquetball. You can always reschedule. No need for all that drama. (Reply to this) (Thread)

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	jelly_ace 2009-08-24 11:32 am UTC (link)
	That's why I love Hush's character. I think in 'Heart of Hush' he was all You know what they would've said? Get over it. Yep, writers, too much Bruce psychodrama is so wearisome, even the characters are complaining about it. And if his parents were alive, I think Bruce would've been a pretty much messed-up person. Not that he's not currently messed up, of course. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

jlroberson 2009-08-24 12:30 pm UTC (link)

I can see Bruce's parents from beyond saying,"Good GOD, Bruce. Live your life. We never wanted this." It also makes Gaiman's idea of what if Batman was just something Alfred constructed to keep Bruce from killing himself or something seem more real. And also why I like Dick being Batman, at least for a while. Because there's more to Batman than psychosis and obsession. And that aspect...has been explored, and I don't think there's much more to say about it in comics. At least for a while.(it doesn't even work that well in the movies. In the first one, during his training Bruce learns there's more to it than that and is not much more than a rage addict before Ra's finds him, and in the second...well, Batman's kind of a supporting character in that anyway, isn't he?) (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

jaybee3 2009-08-24 02:08 pm UTC (link)

I can see Bruce's parents from beyond saying,"Good GOD, Bruce. Live your life. We never wanted this." Which is almost what Morrison had Jezebel Jet say to him in R.I.P. i.e. she could feed her entire country on the money he spends on his Bat-cave or what Dini had Hush say to him in Heart of Hush (taking place at the same time) in effect saying what his parents think of Bruce wasting his money on all these toys in the Bat-cave when he could put his money and energy to good purpose. Out of the mouths of enemies but I'm sure every single one of Bruce's friends and family have at least though the same. Yet the only one he might listen to (Alfred) has enabled this mania of his since he was a child. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	jlroberson 2009-08-24 02:12 pm UTC (link)
	When you really think about him, Bruce becomes a rather pathetic, selfish figure, doesn't he? (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

sistermagpie 2009-08-24 07:59 pm UTC (link)

Not particularly to me anyway. Bruce does, canonically, do a lot of good things for charity. Most billionaires spend money on toys--why would it only be bad that Bruce Wayne's toys help in his role as Batman? And while there's plenty of other more far-range plans that would reduce crime (much of which Bruce also supports) it's not like there's something wrong with being a guy who stops a mugging in progress. That was something he decided he wanted to stop and he stops it. It doesn't seem any more selfish to me than him living more like his father, or how Tommy Hush would live with a lot of money. Even his heirs are kids who otherwise would have probably had nothing. He's not solving all the world's problems, but I don't think he's particularly selfish or pathetic. Jezebel Jett probably could have fed a lot of people with the money she spent on designer clothing and jewelry. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	mysteryfan 2009-08-24 09:53 pm UTC (link)
	That's a really good point about Jezebel Jett. What a hypocrite*. She criticizes crimefighting tools but spends her money on designer clothes and jewelry. *But, you know. She was a villain, so I probably shouldn't be surprised she might be a hypocrite trying to get at Bruce. And she's definitely someone who'd want Batman to have fewer crimefighting gadgets. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

jaybee3 2009-08-25 03:57 am UTC (link)

True, but I'm sure that not a few of Bruce's allies think the same thing without being hypocrites - i.e. that a man of his genius and abilities and resources could do so much more for the world (and Gotham) instead of spending billions on Bat-toys and spending much of his time in a cave. It's just that his friends and family usually won't say it to him. This is not to say Bruce is not a huge philanthropist in his "Bruce Wayne" persona but I'm sure someone with his brains could be a major world figure without having to resort to making Thomas and Martha's legacy (in most people's eyes) a wastrel, a playboy and a fop. To become the Batman, he has made Bruce Wayne a joke - which does no credit to his parents (Batman: TAS actually did better job than the comics- its Bruce was a playboy but also recognized as a competent businessman). Of course it all depends on who's writing Batman. Some writers actual write "Bruce Wayne" as someone of substance (Ed Brubaker did this in Catwoman) but most just play it up as his true "mask". (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	mysteryfan 2009-08-25 04:01 am UTC (link)
	His credit to his parents' legacy is fighting crime and making the world a better place. (He's also a huge philanthropist, runs a successful enterprise and raises good kids.) How does that not do credit to his parents? (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

jaybee3 2009-08-25 12:27 pm UTC (link)

Of course he does credit to his parents as Batman otherwise there would be no comic. But (and this is mostly about writers) making Bruce Wayne as a public figure nothing but a do-nothing semi-intelligent playboy which does little credit to the man Bruce really has become. This whole Hush storyline in Streets of Gotham (which I'm not really a fan of) has Bruce suddenly (in the eyes of the public) leave the jetsetting crowd in Europe to become Gotham's benefactor (more than usual). Now of course we the readers know he's been doing this already but there was nothing stopping the real Bruce from doing it. Batman does a great credit to his parents, "Bruce Wayne" only does so based on who's writing him - some being better than others. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

(no subject) - mysteryfan, 2009-08-25 02:03 pm UTC

	jlroberson 2009-08-25 02:22 am UTC (link)
	Jezebel said she'd beggar her country to destroy Bruce. But the devil can speak truth. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	sistermagpie 2009-08-25 02:59 am UTC (link)
	What important truth did Jezebel say about Bruce that presumably he should have listened to? (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	jlroberson 2009-08-25 03:31 am UTC (link)
	I believe someone mentioned she said she could feed her country on what Batman costs, which implies that he could, in general, do more good with the money otherwise than wasting it on Batman. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	sistermagpie 2009-08-25 01:53 pm UTC (link)
	He's saved the world more than once as Batman. And I think he probably still spends as much on charitable works--I would be surprised if he wasn't spending as much on food for the hungry. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	mysteryfan 2009-08-24 09:44 pm UTC (link)
	Not to me. I don't think it's selfish and pathetic to devote yourself to a worthy cause and try to make the world a better place. (Reply to this) (Parent)

jlroberson 2009-08-24 11:29 am UTC (link)

t's panels like that which make me not miss Bruce Wayne. Psychodrama is one thing. But that? Dude's wound so tight he'll pop. Even hemorrhoids fear being crushed in Bruce's black hole sphincter. Something else comes to mind: has anyone ever done a story where the same thing that happened to Bruce happens instead to a poor or middle-class kid(they certainly went to see Zorro too) without the means to build themselves into something like Batman, not to mention the cops wouldn't have cared as much? The Wrath doesn't count, as his parents were criminals shot by a cop. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

ladymirth 2009-08-24 12:06 pm UTC (link)

I found a fanfic once where the Waynes are only a middle-class family, so without the vast resources that enables Bruce to disconnect himself from society and focus entirely on avenging their deaths, he becomes an engineer who is a considerably better-adjusted individual of comfortable means and who helps out at inner-city community centers. Instead of spending his nights beating up criminals, he helps young people channel their anger and focus their talents so they won't become criminals. It was actually background to a Dick/Jason friendship fic, so pretty awesome all around. I'll try and find it for you. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

jaybee3 2009-08-24 02:04 pm UTC (link)

How about this. Instead of a random shmo like Joe Chill, the Waynes are cold-bloodily murdered by someone they trust in front of Bruce's eyes, and Bruce is separated from his little sister who doesn't even remember him when they meet later. His guardian throws him out into the street and takes his inheritance and he has to sell newspapers in the corner for a living and sleep in alleys. Does he still come out the sociopathic Bat-God or does he come out sunny and optimistic - like say Billy Batson who had all those things happen to him. This is one reason I could never identify with the recent (well since Frank Miller) Bat-dick who uses his pain to be an a-hole to everyone. He's not the only one whose gone through so much trauma, but he is the only one with an unlimited amount of money and time so he can make a dozen bat-caves, buy bat-toys and be a jerk to everyone who dares care for him. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	jlroberson 2009-08-24 02:10 pm UTC (link)
	This. Bruce can easily be viewed as a spoiled rich kid writ very, very large. In fact, you can make the argument that Bruce's parents dying actually freed him. From ever growing up. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	ladymirth 2009-08-24 02:10 pm UTC (link)
	Oh, WORD. Losing your parents as a child is a traumatic experience, but it's no excuse to become a controlling dickhead in a world where people go through much worse shit. Honestly, when you take characters like Vic and Gar and Kory and Steph who have gone through SO MUCH and remained friendly and upbeat, I can't find a single excuse for Bruce. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

jlroberson 2009-08-24 02:14 pm UTC (link)

Losing your parents is a classic DC trope. But only Bruce ever got like this. Not even Dick Grayson, who Batman never allowed to properly grieve for his parents. Dick ended up fine. Dick is not bitter and everyone likes him, and for good reason. DICK grew up. Bruce never did. Christ, Billy is what, 14? And he was always more mature than Bruce ever was. The reason why Bruce could never have a decent relationship is because he is not an adult. He stayed a scared emo little boy forever. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

ladymirth 2009-08-24 02:22 pm UTC (link)

I think the current logic is that Bruce, like Barbara, has eidetic memory, so he, like Barbara, CAN NEVER EVER FORGET and it's always at the forefront of his mind in living technicolor. Hence the endless panels of guns firing and pearl strongs breaking. That is possibly why Martha Wayne's pearls scattering and Barbara being shot through the stomach by Joker are the most iconic images of the BatFamily books in recent years. I don't know if I buy it, though. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

jlroberson 2009-08-24 02:29 pm UTC (link)

That's psychotic obsession, not just trauma. Barbara values her life and avoids obsessing over the loss of her legs. She makes a point of it. (there was a great line about this in BLACKEST NIGHT, which by the way, along with this idea of Bruce, suggests to me why Johns doesn't like writing Batman--he's useless to Johns' style, which does not incline toward this romanticizing of emotional arrest) One could also argue, okay fine, but WORLD'S GREATEST DETECTIVE. The idea being Gotham would have been deprived of that. Except that the point is always made that the kind of criminals you see in Gotham are a RESULT of Batman. Without him, you might not have seen them. The Joker, for one, whose becoming the Joker was Batman's fault.(at least in most versions of his origin) For that matter? NO Batman, no Joker. No Joker, no crippled Barbara. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

ladymirth 2009-08-24 02:51 pm UTC (link)

But then again, Batman himself was a result of rampant crime, corruption and mob rule, and he couldn't have foreseen a trail of crazies following in his wake. Besides, I'm not sure I agree that the crazies are a result of Batman. The Joker was a poor man forced to throw himself at the mercy of criminals who double-crossed him, which led him to madness. Sure, he began to fixate upon Batman as he saw him as his anti-thesis, but who is to say that if not for Bats, he wouldn't have fixated on (and broken) someone else? Two Face was a good guy who simply couldn't comprehend the idea of gray morality and grew disillusioned with the system he was forced to work with. Catwoman was always a theif - it simply amused her to don a costume to do it. And so on. The points to consider are that most of the Gotham Rogues are a product of Gotham (as opposed to drawn to Gotham from other parts), that each of them could well have been created even without the presence of Batman, and that escalation is a fact of life. Just because the crazies came after Batman doesn't mean he created them. Who's to say that Batman wasn't simply the first of Gotham's famed freaks? As you say, his crusade at times resembles more of a psychotic obsession. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	jlroberson 2009-08-24 02:55 pm UTC (link)
	I haven't anything at the moment to rebut that. But how you describe Harvey makes me think a meeting between him and Ditko's Question(or Mr. A, even more) would have been amusing. (Reply to this) (Parent)

jaybee3 2009-08-24 05:29 pm UTC (link)

I remember how GJ wrote Bruce in the "Crisis of Conscience" JLA arc that came out of Identity Crisis. All those involved in the mind-wiping go to confront him (after J'onn has told them "he knows") and after Zatanna apologizes profusely she says "Tell me what I can do to make it up you" and Bruce responds "You can leave" and it says it in the most Bat-dickery way possible. Of course later on we're supposed to believe he's REALLY upset because the mind-wiping is might have been what turned Catwoman into a good guy (and not HIS awesome influence) but it's not really believable. In that arc (or the one after it), Ollie also says that under all that darkness, Bruce is just like him and every other non-meta superhero and he's just pretending he's better than everyone else. So yeah, I think Geoff Johns really can't handle Bruce (or Wonder Woman, who is also too complicated) - and I'm a big fan of Johns. I'm sure he can write a good Dick Grayson Batman. The worst about Bruce is a) too many writers are influenced by the Frank Miller Batman who was a sociopath who can not do interpersonal relationships and not the 1970s Batman who was pretty well-adjusted and b)in order to enable the Frank Miller Batman so many writers have him being a giant jerk-off to all his friends and family which leave readers scratching his head why he even has friends and family. The way he's treated Barbara and Dick and Stephanie and Tim and Cassandra (depending on the storyline), the way he treats Huntress ALL THE TIME (expect when written by Gail Simone), the way he treated Diana after the Max Lord incident, the way he treats Clark like a child or a constant threat (depending on the writer), the way he challenged Black Canary's leadership in the JLA (by just ignoring her orders), the way he's treated Hal Jordan (even after Jordan re-lit the friggin sun and saved everyone on the planet) and on and on. Let's not even go into the creation of Brother Eye and Tower of Babel. Why does this man have friends? Why do they trust him at all? Why do Selina and Talia keep coming back and back to a man who always throws their feelings back. It's never explained. Any other group of family and friends would stage an intervention. But Bruce's think that's just the way he is and let him go on his merry way. (Reply to this) (Parent)

sistermagpie 2009-08-24 08:06 pm UTC (link)

Bruce didn't allow Dick to properly grieve? I would say Bruce picked Dick up and gave him care and stability and understanding while he grieved. Dick has I think himself said that one of the reasons he's so well-adjusted is that Bruce was there to care for him. He didn't want Dick to be like him. I'd say even in current Bat!Dick incarnations (which are relatively recent) it's not that Bruce is just obsessed with his parents deaths without caring about others, it's more that he has trouble relating to people in a healthy way because he's got issues from that incident and his life afterwards. For all his problems, he's got kids who love him and who he loves. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	mysteryfan 2009-08-24 09:38 pm UTC (link)
	Bruce/Batman is my favorite character. He's surrounded by people who trust him and believe in him and follow him and want to be liked by him and be like him. He must have something going on! (Reply to this) (Parent)

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	Re: Hooray, a chance to pimp! ladymirth 2009-10-14 01:57 pm UTC (link)
	In what universe would I complain about fic recs? =D Yay, fic! Thanks! I'd actually forgotten about this post. Were you reading through the whole of S_D back-entries? o_O (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	Re: Hooray, a chance to pimp! perevision 2009-10-14 02:01 pm UTC (link)
	I usually forget to check SD for months, then I start picking up comics again and have to comb the archives for connecting pieces of the DC puzzle I might have missed. I pick up a lot of new comic recs that way :) (Reply to this) (Parent)

	Hooray, a chance to pimp! perevision 2009-10-14 01:59 pm UTC (link)
	It's by a friend of mine, karanguni. Part 1 is here, part 2 (which includes Selina, and Dick and Jason desperately trying to be normal teenagers) is here. She also did a great story where Dick of current DCU continuity shows up in the Batman Beyond-verse: here. In fact you're probably better off reading everything under this tag. TL;DR I know, but you won't regret it! (Reply to this) (Parent)

	ladymirth 2009-10-14 02:01 pm UTC (link)
	http://asylums.insanejournal.com/scans_daily/849135.html?thread=31634159 (Reply to this) (Parent)