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cyberghostface ([info]cyberghostface) wrote in [info]scans_daily,
@ 2009-08-20 13:35:00

Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Entry tags:char: chameleon/dmitri smerdyakov, char: flash thompson, char: j. jonah jameson jr., char: mary jane watson, char: spider-man/peter parker, creator: fred van lente, title: amazing spider-man

Amazing Spider-Man #603

After last issue, Chameleon is impersonating Peter. He doesn't know who Peter really is. He attempts to get a grasp of Peter's life by looking through his old yearbook and photos. Among them is a photo of Gwen, and a message from Flash in his yearbook where he tells him to "stay puny".

As posted before, Chameleon!Peter has sex with Michelle. I have to ask--is this rape? Personally, I think it is as Michelle probably wouldn't have given consent to Chameleon otherwise. But some fans of the issue on Spider-Man Crawl Space are arguing that it isn't because she gave consent. Is there a legal definition on this?

Anyway, Chameleon!Peter has his meeting with MJ.









(Post a new comment)


[info]mullon
2009-08-20 05:57 pm UTC (link)
I don't think it's rape. It's sex under false pretenses, which is very bad in it's own way, but doesn't sound as bad.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]felinephoenix
2009-08-20 07:08 pm UTC (link)
Sex under false pretences is a form of rape.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


(Anonymous)
2009-08-25 03:05 pm UTC (link)
That's rape.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


(Anonymous)
2009-08-20 06:06 pm UTC (link)
so does MJ still know that Peter is Spidey after brand new day?

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]cyberghostface
2009-08-20 06:10 pm UTC (link)
It's been hinted that she does but not explicitly confirmed.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]queenanthai, 2009-08-20 06:25 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sandoz_iscariot, 2009-08-20 06:26 pm UTC

[info]sandoz_iscariot
2009-08-20 06:12 pm UTC (link)
She does.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]goblinthebamf
2009-08-20 06:09 pm UTC (link)
yuck. I think I'll just stick with calling this whole thing "unpleasant" and try not to think anymore about the other horrid implications like what happened to Michelle.

(Reply to this)


[info]ian_karkull
2009-08-20 06:13 pm UTC (link)
Heh. I kind of like this, actually. It's like Peter Parkers Evil Twin has been set loose upon the world.
It works for me because deep, deep down inside, in his darkest hours, Peter probably sometimes has thoughts and feelings like this. He is, after all, the archetypical flawed character.
Struggling to rise above these base urges is what makes him a hero.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]ar_feiniel_
2009-08-21 10:50 am UTC (link)
I agree.

Besides, at least this Parker has the balls to be a real dick, instead of the current one who just eats wheaties and gets wasted at weddings to cope with his ex.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]icon_uk
2009-08-20 06:18 pm UTC (link)
I google "what crime is impersonating someone for the purposes of sex?" and got this link.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]ashtoreth
2009-08-20 09:42 pm UTC (link)
Please don't feel I'm being an ugly American, but isn't that British law? I can't find anything to specifically say.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]icon_uk, 2009-08-20 09:50 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ashtoreth, 2009-08-20 10:09 pm UTC

[info]sandoz_iscariot
2009-08-20 06:18 pm UTC (link)
What happened to Michelle was rape. She was consenting to have sex with Peter, but that wasn't Peter--it was a stranger who broke into her home. She was not consenting to have sex with the Chameleon, and would not have if she had known who he really was. The fact that this is probably going to be played off for more whomp whomp whomp sitcom-y mistaken identity hijinks is terrible.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]darklorelei
2009-08-20 06:55 pm UTC (link)
Exactly.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]felinephoenix
2009-08-20 07:02 pm UTC (link)
This.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]jaybee3
2009-08-20 07:06 pm UTC (link)
It was rape. She did not consent to have sex with Chameleon. She consented to have sex with Peter. They are not the same person. If we are were talking about all the people who had sex with Skrulls (i.e. Tigra and SkrullHankPym) thinking they were someone else we wouldn't even think to question it ... I hope.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]punishermax
2009-08-20 09:10 pm UTC (link)
Or it could be played like it was rape, we don't know,neither of us can see into the future.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]sandoz_iscariot, 2009-08-20 09:17 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]punishermax, 2009-08-20 09:20 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sandoz_iscariot, 2009-08-20 09:25 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]punishermax, 2009-08-20 09:29 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ashtoreth, 2009-08-20 09:47 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]punishermax, 2009-08-20 09:59 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ashtoreth, 2009-08-20 10:12 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]felinephoenix, 2009-08-21 05:43 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]punishermax, 2009-08-21 03:20 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]box_in_the_box, 2009-08-20 09:42 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]box_in_the_box, 2009-09-12 04:42 am UTC

[info]colonel_green
2009-08-20 06:23 pm UTC (link)
If we're talking in a legal sense, flawlessly impersonating another person in the way the Chameleon does is so outside the scope of our reality that it's hard to match it with current laws. Realistically, she would probably feel like that if she found out (which she won't), but fiction involving shapeshifters rarely delves into that sort of thing, preferring to just let shapeshifter stories like this get played for humour (though it can also be played for horror/drama; see Abby Arcane). I remember how the JLU episode where Flash ends up in Lex's body and then is implied to have romanced Tala (though she was the one making the moves there) generated a bunch of discussions about whether that made the Flash technically a rapist; it's probably one of those storytelling conceits that should be left alone.

A reviewer (IGN, I think) had a good analysis of this issue, in that it uses Chameleon's impersonation to frame the things Peter isn't as a result either of being Spider-Man or just his personality: Fake-Peter is punctual, as MJ notes; he insults Flash; he's reasonably good at recognizing attraction and seducing women, etc.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]arilou_skiff, 2009-08-20 06:52 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]colonel_green, 2009-08-20 06:58 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]felinephoenix, 2009-08-20 07:05 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]colonel_green, 2009-08-20 07:09 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]felinephoenix, 2009-08-20 07:19 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]colonel_green, 2009-08-20 07:34 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]box_in_the_box, 2009-08-20 07:38 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ashtoreth, 2009-08-20 09:15 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]felinephoenix, 2009-08-20 07:41 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]colonel_green, 2009-08-20 08:05 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]box_in_the_box, 2009-08-20 07:35 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lencannon, 2009-08-20 07:50 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]box_in_the_box, 2009-08-20 08:00 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]colonel_green, 2009-08-20 08:08 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]box_in_the_box, 2009-08-20 08:15 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lencannon, 2009-08-20 08:14 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]box_in_the_box, 2009-08-20 08:26 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lencannon, 2009-08-20 08:33 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]arilou_skiff, 2009-08-20 08:23 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]box_in_the_box, 2009-08-20 08:29 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]arilou_skiff, 2009-08-20 08:33 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lencannon, 2009-08-20 08:34 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]arilou_skiff, 2009-08-20 08:37 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]unknownscribler, 2009-08-21 04:33 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]arilou_skiff, 2009-08-21 09:29 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]consortium11, 2009-08-21 07:40 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]punishermax, 2009-08-20 09:14 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]box_in_the_box, 2009-08-20 09:23 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]punishermax, 2009-08-20 09:26 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ashtoreth, 2009-08-20 09:40 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]box_in_the_box, 2009-08-21 01:37 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]unknownscribler, 2009-08-21 05:08 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]punishermax, 2009-08-21 03:18 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]unknownscribler, 2009-08-21 11:50 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cyberghostface, 2009-08-20 07:07 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]colonel_green, 2009-08-20 07:10 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sandoz_iscariot, 2009-08-20 07:18 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]felinephoenix, 2009-08-20 07:21 pm UTC
Arilou_skiff..Oh you have no idea.. - [info]steverodgers5, 2009-08-20 07:40 pm UTC
Re: Arilou_skiff..Oh you have no idea.. - [info]arilou_skiff, 2009-08-20 07:42 pm UTC
You're probably right.. - [info]steverodgers5, 2009-08-20 07:57 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ashtoreth, 2009-08-20 09:49 pm UTC
Re: Arilou_skiff..Oh you have no idea.. - [info]unknownscribler, 2009-08-21 04:58 am UTC
Re: Arilou_skiff..Oh you have no idea.. - [info]valtyr.dreamwidth.org, 2009-08-21 11:26 am UTC
Re: Arilou_skiff..Oh you have no idea.. - [info]unknownscribler, 2009-08-21 01:47 pm UTC
Re: Arilou_skiff..Oh you have no idea.. - [info]valtyr.dreamwidth.org, 2009-08-21 03:27 pm UTC
Re: Arilou_skiff..Oh you have no idea.. - [info]unknownscribler, 2009-08-22 12:41 am UTC
Re: Arilou_skiff..Oh you have no idea.. - [info]valtyr.dreamwidth.org, 2009-08-22 10:50 am UTC
Victim-blaming - [info]angelophile, 2009-08-25 10:12 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]unknownscribler, 2009-08-26 01:34 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]angelophile, 2009-08-26 04:18 pm UTC

[info]colonel_green
2009-08-20 06:28 pm UTC (link)
Oh, and poor Flash.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]roguefankc, 2009-08-20 08:04 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]colonel_green, 2009-08-20 08:14 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]felinephoenix, 2009-08-20 08:25 pm UTC

[info]fredneil.livejournal.com
2009-08-20 06:49 pm UTC (link)
Shouldn't someone notice that Peter's acting strangely? Even if he is a jerk in this universe, he's still being a lot more of a jerk than usual. Bring up high school in an especially cruel way a decade or so later, despite years of friendship inbetween should seem old. At least after Flash gets over the immediate desire to shoot fake peter, and while telling Mary Jane that it never worked because she's not Gwen might be brutal honesty, she should wonder why he brought visual aids to make his point. (Again, after she gets over the desire to shoot him.) If Mary Jane still knows he's Spider-Man, she should be especially sensitive to this kind of thing.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]cyberghostface, 2009-08-20 06:51 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]felinephoenix, 2009-08-20 07:07 pm UTC
Y'know.. - [info]steverodgers5, 2009-08-20 07:14 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]fredneil.livejournal.com, 2009-08-20 07:23 pm UTC
Heh!..yeah.. - [info]steverodgers5, 2009-08-20 07:45 pm UTC
Re: Heh!..yeah.. - [info]punishermax, 2009-08-20 09:48 pm UTC
Re: Heh!..yeah.. - [info]kagome654, 2009-08-21 10:32 pm UTC
Re: Heh!..yeah.. - [info]toasty_fresh, 2009-08-22 03:16 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]angelophile, 2009-08-20 08:29 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]punishermax, 2009-08-20 09:16 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]box_in_the_box, 2009-08-20 09:35 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]punishermax, 2009-08-20 09:40 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]box_in_the_box, 2009-08-20 09:51 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]punishermax, 2009-08-20 09:52 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cyberghostface, 2009-08-20 09:59 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]punishermax, 2009-08-20 10:02 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ashtoreth, 2009-08-20 11:33 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]box_in_the_box, 2009-08-20 10:03 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]punishermax, 2009-08-20 10:08 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]box_in_the_box, 2009-08-20 10:10 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]punishermax, 2009-08-20 10:12 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]box_in_the_box, 2009-08-20 10:19 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]punishermax, 2009-08-20 10:23 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]box_in_the_box, 2009-08-20 10:29 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]punishermax, 2009-08-20 10:32 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]box_in_the_box, 2009-08-20 10:36 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]punishermax, 2009-08-20 10:38 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]box_in_the_box, 2009-08-20 10:44 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]punishermax, 2009-08-20 10:47 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]box_in_the_box, 2009-08-20 10:57 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]fredneil.livejournal.com, 2009-08-20 10:49 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]punishermax, 2009-08-20 10:51 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]fredneil.livejournal.com, 2009-08-20 10:54 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]taggerung301, 2009-08-21 12:35 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]fredneil.livejournal.com, 2009-08-21 12:51 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]taggerung301, 2009-08-21 12:54 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]fredneil.livejournal.com, 2009-08-21 01:04 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kagome654, 2009-08-21 12:53 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]taggerung301, 2009-08-21 01:26 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]fredneil.livejournal.com, 2009-08-21 02:24 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kagome654, 2009-08-21 12:53 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]angelophile, 2009-08-21 10:29 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]unknownscribler, 2009-08-21 05:11 am UTC

[info]cyberghostface
2009-08-20 06:49 pm UTC (link)
Anyone know why Chameleon doesn't remember building robotic replicas of Peters's parents? This was before he found out who he was, so there's no reason why he shouldn't remember.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]foxhack, 2009-08-20 06:54 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cyberghostface, 2009-08-20 06:58 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]starwolf_oakley, 2009-08-20 10:48 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cyberghostface, 2009-08-21 01:13 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]bariman1987, 2009-08-21 03:20 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]cyberghostface, 2009-08-21 04:23 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sir_mikael, 2009-08-21 08:16 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]starwolf_oakley, 2009-08-22 05:04 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]cyberghostface, 2009-08-22 02:14 pm UTC

[info]jaybee3
2009-08-20 07:13 pm UTC (link)
So when we see MJ hooking up with some wildly inappropriate guy/enemy of Peter/using her to get to Peter whatever we can blame it on her seeing lipstick on NotPeter's collar and NotPeter saying she wasn't Gwen right? Because I could totally see that coming.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]box_in_the_box, 2009-08-20 07:40 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]punishermax, 2009-08-20 09:19 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]box_in_the_box, 2009-08-20 09:27 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]punishermax, 2009-08-20 09:30 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]box_in_the_box, 2009-08-20 09:37 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]punishermax, 2009-08-20 09:43 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]box_in_the_box, 2009-08-20 09:45 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]punishermax, 2009-08-20 09:46 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]box_in_the_box, 2009-08-20 09:55 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]punishermax, 2009-08-20 10:00 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]box_in_the_box, 2009-08-20 10:04 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]punishermax, 2009-08-20 10:07 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]box_in_the_box, 2009-08-20 10:09 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]punishermax, 2009-08-20 10:11 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]box_in_the_box, 2009-08-20 10:17 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]punishermax, 2009-08-20 10:22 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]box_in_the_box, 2009-08-20 10:23 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]punishermax, 2009-08-20 10:24 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]box_in_the_box, 2009-08-20 10:33 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]punishermax, 2009-08-20 10:36 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]box_in_the_box, 2009-08-20 10:41 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]punishermax, 2009-08-20 10:46 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]box_in_the_box, 2009-08-20 11:01 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]arilou_skiff, 2009-08-21 09:26 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]fredneil.livejournal.com, 2009-08-20 10:57 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sandoz_iscariot, 2009-08-20 11:17 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]thesecondevil, 2009-08-21 01:03 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]neuhallidae, 2009-08-21 03:43 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]felinephoenix, 2009-08-21 05:46 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]punishermax, 2009-08-21 03:15 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]angelophile, 2009-08-21 04:09 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]neuhallidae, 2009-08-21 04:39 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]thesecondevil, 2009-08-21 05:29 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cyberghostface, 2009-08-20 09:55 pm UTC
You know what really bugs me about this tale..
[info]steverodgers5
2009-08-20 07:53 pm UTC (link)
Yeah I get all the horrible implications of what the villain is doing with Michelle, but I have to ask how is that even possible with the Chameleon?

Is he now officially a shape changer? I mean I know he's used image inducers in the past, (On his belt and so forth..) but in this story he seems to be using the old Mission Impossible molded-mask routine. And y'know I can just about buy that it might look real, but would it really feel real? With all the hinted at carnal activities you'd think that might become apparent..

But I suppose it is the Marvel Universe, and that they could have some technical reason for it being THAT believable. I just wish they'd explained it more clearly in the story..

(Reply to this)


[info]zegim
2009-08-20 08:32 pm UTC (link)
This arc went downhill fast. Real fast.

(Reply to this)


(Anonymous)
2009-08-21 02:39 am UTC (link)
"you weren't her"

Wow that's cold, even for this writing staff. And watch them not even attempt to have peter later clarify that those weren't exactly his feelings at all, but someone else's


and part B, the gwen mention got me thinking...this staff pre-BND was really strongly considering bringing Gwen back in the reboot/retcon/whatever, like I know I've seen they almost were going to multiple times. Now these guys in charge grew up with their 1st 10-20 years of comics being Gwen still alive...

you think perhaps this is mirroring their feelings? They dislike mary jane b/c she's not gwen, and they grew up thinking she was the only one for peter?

(Reply to this) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]sandoz_iscariot, 2009-08-21 06:02 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]arilou_skiff, 2009-08-21 06:20 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sandoz_iscariot, 2009-08-21 06:23 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]fredneil.livejournal.com, 2009-08-21 07:23 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sandoz_iscariot, 2009-08-21 07:40 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]starwolf_oakley, 2009-08-22 05:09 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]fredneil.livejournal.com, 2009-08-22 06:50 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]starwolf_oakley, 2009-08-22 09:05 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]fredneil.livejournal.com, 2009-08-23 02:45 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]fredneil.livejournal.com, 2009-08-21 07:06 am UTC

(Anonymous)
2009-08-21 02:43 am UTC (link)
apparently they want everyone to hate peter like they did in high school...that's the only sense I can make out of all of this

(Reply to this) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]starwolf_oakley, 2009-08-22 05:02 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]fredneil.livejournal.com, 2009-08-22 05:35 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]starwolf_oakley, 2009-08-22 06:41 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]fredneil.livejournal.com, 2009-08-22 07:47 pm UTC

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