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dr_hermes ([info]dr_hermes) wrote in [info]scans_daily,
@ 2009-08-02 22:20:00

Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Entry tags:char: starman/ted knight, era: golden age

Why didn't Starman win the war?
It's a problem with ongoing science-fiction series, whether pulps or comics or TV. If advanced technology is shown to be available and workable, why doesn't it change the world? Anti-gravity, matter transporters, telepathic transmitters.. any of these would start the biggest change since the Industrial Revolution. The problem is that following stories would have to incorporate these changes and the series would suddenly stop being the world of Doc Savage and look more like the world of the Jetsons. So the amazing new gadget has to be destroyed, the only prototype smashed and the plans lost. Or, if the hero is using the gizmo as his trademark, it must be the product of a freak accident that can't be duplicated. (Doc Savage used to regularly claim the villains' disintegrator guns or earthquake machines or whatever and just declare they were too dangerous to use. Rather than trust the human race to use the tech properly, he just took it on himself to lock him them away in his Fortress of Solitude. But then, Doc had a lot of nerve any way you look at it.)




Now, the original Starman (the one who appeared in ADVENTURE COMICS and ALL-STAR COMICS beginning in 1941)had as his main distinction something called the Gravity Rod. This was a sceptre that charged up with starlight and converted it into useful energy. Anti-gravity, concussive blasts, heat rays (and the occasional rabbit-out-of-the-hat application) made Starman an upper-level super-hero able to hold his own with the heavy hitters in the Justice Society.





(The above is from ALL-STAR COMICS# 11, June-July 1942.) Following the attack on Pearl Harbor, Starman is seized with the same intense patriotism as the other JSA members and they all enlist in their civilian identities. (Why not in costume? Maybe because they thought of their civilian identities as their true selves, who they really were and saw their super-hero guises as something of a game. Just as they wouldn't get married as Hawkman or the Atom, they wouldn't enlist that way.) Anyway, Ted Knight somehow brings his costume and weapon along with him anyway and soon finds himself attacking a huge concentration of Japanese forces. In fact, he ends up seizing Formosa by himself....!The natural thought is, if he's this invincible against conventional fighter planes, why doesn't Starman go on to Tokyo or Berlin and just level those cities? For that matter, why only make one Gravity Rod? He repairs and replaces his gizmo a number of times, so it's not non-reproducible. Why isn't there a squad of Starmen in action? Is it just a case of "It's MY toy, I don't want anyone else to play with it?" Or that he fears the American military will misuse his technology? Wars don't last forever and when WW II ends, will America go on an imperialistic conquest using the Gravity Rod adventage? (In 1942, it would be an unusually perceptive person who worried about future possibilities like that.)

"let's erect a gigantic rod"


A few months later, we find Starman on the planet Jupiter in a typically implausible Golden Age epic. Here he has the Jovians build an immense replica of his Gravity Rod and its power propels his ship back to Earth. Leaving the war aside, imagine the uses for a device like this. Engineering, construction, transportation, rescue work in disasters... it would provide a leap forward as big as the telephone or the electric light. But this never seems to occur to Ted Knight. The Gravity Rod is restricted to his personal use for fighting super-villains, alien invaders and bank robbers...


(Post a new comment)


[info]kingrockwell
2009-08-03 02:53 am UTC (link)
Ah, the Reed Richards problem. The meta behind it is obvious, since shifting the paradigm too far can rid you of any conflict familiar to the medium and would require entirely different sorts of conflict beyond anything we might be familiar with. The in-story explanations tend to be lacking, leading to frustratingly frustrated fans, and sometime short-sighted lampshades hung with little follow-through.

It's something that would be interesting to explore in a self-contained series, but for a long-running shared universe I only see it getting out of control before too long.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]dr_hermes
2009-08-03 03:19 am UTC (link)
In the old pulps, the mad science gadget was destroyed at the end of the story. If the hero kept it for later use, it either was one-of-a-kind and couldn't be duplicated or it was too dangerous to let the public in on it.

Silver Age Hawkman explicitly used ancient weapons because he didn't want Thanagarian tech to get into the hands of Earth people. Maybe this was official policy or maybe he just thought it would be like passing out hand grenades to a bunch of ten-year-olds.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]btravage.livejournal.com, 2009-08-03 03:32 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]shanejayell, 2009-08-03 03:34 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]dr_hermes, 2009-08-03 03:35 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]jlroberson, 2009-08-03 05:51 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]dr_hermes, 2009-08-03 06:24 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]btravage.livejournal.com, 2009-08-03 12:35 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dr_hermes, 2009-08-03 03:30 pm UTC

[info]psychop_rex
2009-08-04 04:23 am UTC (link)
Reed Richards might not be the best example for this sort of thing, though, given that a number of his inventions HAVE actually made it out into the Marvel U. I mean, just about every MU hero worth his salt wears outfits made of unstable molecules, and SHIELD uses Reed-tech all the time. Also, I believe it's canon that one of the ways in which the FF finances itself is through all the patents that he comes up with. True, the bulk of his inventions are kept to himself, but there are a fair amount of his tamer devices that the public might actually get to use.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]btravage.livejournal.com
2009-08-03 03:29 am UTC (link)
For all its worth, it is acknowledged in DC 1,000,000 that Jack Knight's inventions are going to be the basis for a technological revolution at some future date.

(Reply to this)


[info]shanejayell
2009-08-03 03:34 am UTC (link)
In the elseworlds 'Golden Age' Ted Knight helped develop the A-bomb and had a nervous breakdown. In the Jack Knight Starman series, that was also made canon....

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]dr_hermes
2009-08-03 03:51 am UTC (link)
I read that GOLDEN AGE series and first thought, Ted Knight's breakdown over guilt from his role in the A-bomb project was modern sensibilities projected into the past. Back then, the war was real and desperate, and winning it would prevent an invasion of Japan that would take years and cost hundreds of thousands of Allied lives (and many more Japanese than that). The books I've read on the Manhattan Project didn't mention any of the scientists being outspoken about feelings of guilt.

Then I thought, you know-- Ted's characterization in the Golden Age was always a hypochondriac pretending to have fainting spells, anxiety attacks, heart palpitations and so forth. What if there was a basis to that and he really did have a borderline health issue that came out (not from morality issues) but from the letdown after the stress of working intensely on the Project? It would explain a lot.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]khamelea, 2009-08-03 04:16 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]khamelea, 2009-08-03 04:20 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]dr_hermes, 2009-08-03 04:30 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]khamelea, 2009-08-03 05:05 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]dr_hermes, 2009-08-03 05:37 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]khamelea, 2009-08-03 05:53 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]jlroberson, 2009-08-03 05:57 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]khamelea, 2009-08-03 06:03 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]jlroberson, 2009-08-03 03:14 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ashtoreth, 2009-08-03 05:57 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jlroberson, 2009-08-08 03:54 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]dr_hermes, 2009-08-03 05:59 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]khamelea, 2009-08-03 06:08 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]dr_hermes, 2009-08-03 06:16 am UTC
What is it good for? - [info]nefrekeptah, 2009-08-03 08:20 am UTC
Re: What is it good for? - [info]lieut_kettch, 2009-08-03 04:39 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]btravage.livejournal.com, 2009-08-03 05:04 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]aaron_bourque, 2009-08-03 05:29 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]dr_hermes, 2009-08-03 05:50 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]schmevil, 2009-08-04 06:12 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]aaron_bourque, 2009-08-04 11:48 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]schmevil, 2009-08-05 09:58 pm UTC

[info]khamelea
2009-08-03 03:38 am UTC (link)
I thought Watchmen played on that theme well.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]dr_hermes
2009-08-03 06:19 am UTC (link)
It was an example of how to show society changed by introducing a fantastic element. But then, telling stories in that continuity would take a lot more attention to detail and thoughtfulness than telling stories essentially set in the regular world. And it would probably be less accessible to the casual reader.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]khamelea, 2009-08-03 06:32 am UTC

[info]box_in_the_box
2009-08-03 03:40 am UTC (link)
In spite of the genius of Reed Richards (and Tony Stark) creating similar problems, as already noted, I suspect this motivated the apparently coincidence-dominated origins that Marvel gave to so many of its characters - Steve Rogers was given a Super-Soldier Serum that, against all logic, was never written down before its creator was killed, while Peter Parker, Bruce Banner and the Fantastic Four all received their powers through unique intersections of unintended exposure to radioactivity and other accidental factors, to the point that, even though all of these sources of their respective powers have since been duplicated, the original stories were all clearly intended to show that these unique circumstances simply could not be duplicated, to preempt any such questions about "Why don't they share these powers with others?" In terms of random side-effects, Stan Lee clearly saw radioactivity as being even better than magic.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]dr_hermes
2009-08-03 03:45 am UTC (link)
Science fiction used electricity in the 1930s and early 1940s to explain its monsters and supermen. Then it was radiation. Then genetic engineering. Now it seems to be nano-technology to explain unlikely events. In each case, it's basically magic or divine intervention given a rational-sounding veneer.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]box_in_the_box, 2009-08-03 03:54 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]beoweasel, 2009-08-03 03:59 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]box_in_the_box, 2009-08-03 04:02 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ashtoreth, 2009-08-03 06:49 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]box_in_the_box, 2009-08-03 07:17 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dr_hermes, 2009-08-03 04:03 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]box_in_the_box, 2009-08-03 04:04 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]khamelea, 2009-08-03 06:38 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]schmevil, 2009-08-04 06:18 pm UTC

[info]timgueguen
2009-08-03 05:22 am UTC (link)
That kind of reasoning was never completely spplied. As I've said before Peter Parker should never have had to worry about money after he invented his web shooter fluid because of all the potential spin offs from it. Although I didn't like the idea that much the Spider Man movies having webs be part of Peter's natural power set did cut that problem off at the pass.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]box_in_the_box, 2009-08-03 05:32 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]dr_hermes, 2009-08-03 06:39 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]box_in_the_box, 2009-08-03 07:58 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]liliaeth, 2009-08-03 05:25 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]psychop_rex, 2009-08-04 04:49 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]box_in_the_box, 2009-08-04 04:57 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]psychop_rex, 2009-08-04 06:58 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]box_in_the_box, 2009-08-04 07:10 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]psychop_rex, 2009-08-04 07:42 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]schmevil, 2009-08-04 06:26 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]box_in_the_box, 2009-08-04 06:39 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]schmevil, 2009-08-04 06:58 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]box_in_the_box, 2009-08-04 07:04 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]fredneil.livejournal.com, 2009-08-07 01:49 am UTC

[info]rab62
2009-08-03 04:13 am UTC (link)
Re "why didn't mystery men enlist in their costumed identities" -- well, when a football player enlists, he doesn't show up for basic training wearing his uniform and helmet; when a baseball player signs up, he doesn't bring along his bat and say "don't bother giving me a rifle, Sarge, I'll take care of the enemy with ol' Slugger here!"

Actually, that'd be pretty cool. But you see my point? If you want to keep your unique approach and distinctive look, you don't sign up to wear a uniform and take orders.

On the broader topic: a while back, Steve Englehart wrote an interesting (but badly editorially mangled) four issue miniseries called Big Town, about a parallel Marvel universe where Reed Richards (as well as Tony Stark and Hank Pym) shared advanced super-technology with the world, and what sort of hyperfuturistic place it was to live in a decade later. In spite of the flaws, the book is a great favorite of mine. If Marvel prefers Zombie Earth to techno-utopian Earth, that's their business...

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]dr_hermes
2009-08-03 04:48 am UTC (link)
That was my reaction. After Pearl Harbor, I see the Justice Society members suddenly not taking their costumed identities so seriously. They wanted to enlist and fight as their true selves, the same way they would have gotten married under their real names.

Even so, every one of them smuggled their costumes along somehow and snuck out to fight the enemy as the Sandman or Dr Mid-Nite or whatever. After all, if ALL-STAR COMICS had continued to print the adventures of Sgt Al Pratt, Medic Charles McNider, Army Airman Carter Hall etc, sales would certainly dive off a cliff.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]aaron_bourque
2009-08-03 05:31 am UTC (link)
Superman tried to enlist, and was listed as 4-F because he accidentally read the eye exam board in the NEXT ROOM with his x-ray vision.

D'oh!

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]daningram, 2009-08-03 11:10 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]aaron_bourque, 2009-08-04 05:29 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]daningram, 2009-08-04 10:29 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]yduras.livejournal.com, 2009-08-04 07:15 pm UTC

[info]btravage.livejournal.com
2009-08-03 05:15 am UTC (link)
Was all that Spear of Destiny stuff a retcon?

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]dr_hermes
2009-08-03 05:25 am UTC (link)
Yes. I believe Roy Thomas came up with that to explain why the American super-heroes didn't end the war overnight. The Spear of Destiny wasn't in actual comics from the 1940s.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]icon_uk, 2009-08-03 01:10 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]btravage.livejournal.com, 2009-08-03 02:39 pm UTC

[info]tahngarth
2009-08-03 09:04 am UTC (link)
As someone already said (and I realize this isn't relevant from the golden age context of the stories you posted) in the James Robinson Starman series Ted Knight retires so he could create practical applications for his technology, to change the world for the better.

Also, that Jack Burnley art is always delicious to look at.

(Reply to this)


[info]alschroeder
2009-08-03 09:50 am UTC (link)
With my webcomic character, who is Odd John-level smart, I solve the "cosmic rod" problem by not making her totally altruistic. Usually what involves her in trouble is her own curiosity and/or some consequence of some process she's testing and/or some technology stolen from her. (Again, like Olaf Stapledon's ODD JOHN.)

She has no particular desire to solve all the world's problems...anymore than you, if stuck on an island of just apes, would spend all your time making the apes' life better. That wouldn't mean that you have unkind feelings towards the apes, just that you have other things to do.

Reed Richards, Ted Knight, etc. should have discovered cures for cancers and AIDS by now, revolutionized the power grid and solved global warming with alternative fuels. In the process, whole areas of industry would have been thrown into chaos and society would have become unrecognizable and empathizing with people in it would have been harder.

Mindmistress (my character) has no such desire, and sensibly keeps her technology to herself...anymore than you would give a machine gun to an ape.

(Reply to this)


[info]jarodrussell
2009-08-03 03:07 pm UTC (link)
Is it just me, or does it feel like 2005 in here?

Wake me up when everyone starts to realize that Green Lantern Power Rings are quantum-level replicators and that the idea of will-based constructs is rather limited is their true scope of power...that way I can ask if it feels like 2006.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]dr_hermes
2009-08-03 03:24 pm UTC (link)
Eh. They'll be cut down to 1963 levels again at some point. Comics have an expansion/contraction cycle as far as powers go.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]jarodrussell, 2009-08-03 06:02 pm UTC

[info]cmdr_zoom
2009-08-04 04:16 am UTC (link)
Can they create permanent objects? I suppose if you were able to perfectly imagine a fabber, right down to all the nanoassemblers that do the work... otherwise, it's all just "holo-matter" that goes away as soon as the power runs out or the operator stops maintaining it with concentration.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]jarodrussell, 2009-08-04 04:29 am UTC

[info]jlroberson
2009-08-03 03:17 pm UTC (link)
Apropos of nothing, I'd just like to say Jack Burnley's art was fucking sweet.

I just got a complete collection of scans of ADVENTURE COMICS(my personal all-time favorite DC "_______ Comics" book) and perhaps I might share some of that...

This, by the way, also includes the digests, and that Don Newton Shazam story where they fight gods of darkness with Kid Eternity.

But again: Burnley. Mmm. Good.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]dr_hermes
2009-08-03 03:28 pm UTC (link)
Burnley's art was sleek, polished, attractive. He did tend to
repeat identical poses in every story (sometimes within the same story)and so I wish DC had used him as an inker. Some of the pencillers were vigorous but crude, and Burnley inks could have produced gorgeous art.

ADVENTURE COMICS also had a lot of Simon & Kirby's Sandman that has not been reprinted, just a thought.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]ashtoreth
2009-08-03 06:54 pm UTC (link)
Just curious, have you read the Absorbascon's myriad treatises on Starman?

(Reply to this) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]dr_hermes, 2009-08-03 07:56 pm UTC

[info]gamerguy
2009-08-03 09:53 pm UTC (link)
One major reason they would not enlist in costume is the reason they put that costume on in the first place: to protect their normal identity from the consequences of their superhero ID. Starman simply does not have the restrictions that Ted Knight does, especially as a member of the armed services. Orders, chain of command, officers privileges and more: none of that applies to Starman.

The whole 'auper-technology never changes anything' trope comes down to one major reason: if you follow the natural and normal consequences of these hyper-inventions, you quickly wind up with a world where you are incapable of telling stories that people can relate to. They have no real foundation for understanding a world where everything is powered by stellar radiation, for example. It's just something not to worry about.

The 'people are not ready to use x' idea, though, is the best one to use. Give the cosmic rod technology to anyone who is not a pure-hearted altruist like Ted and they'll be ruling the world with it next week.

You can also look at it like this: the writers in the 30's and 40's were taught and trained by men from the 19th century. The late 19th century really loved the idea of the 'Great Man' theory of history, where history was made not by a natural confluence of events but by the individual actions of men whose intelligence, wisdom, will, and strength of character forced events to play out as they wished. Superheroes are all over that view of the world; they can be trusted since they are Great Men, a breed apart from the corrupt, venal and petty nature of most people.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]dr_hermes, 2009-08-03 10:41 pm UTC


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