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Tweak says, "Must be nargles."

espanolbot (espanolbot) wrote in scans_daily,
@ 2009-08-01 20:13:00

Entry tags:

nsfw: gore, publisher: dc comics, title: countdown, title: ultimatum

Cover and Solicit to Ultimate Avengers 1

Behold, what I presume is Ultimate Red Skull!

EW! He looks sticky!

ULTIMATE COMICS AVENGERS #1
Written by MARK MILLAR
Pencils & Cover by CARLOS PACHECO
Villain Variant by OLIVIER COIPEL
Special Variant by TBA
Guess who’s back!! That’s right, kids, MARK MILLAR (THE ULTIMATES, WOLVERINE: OLD MAN LOGAN) and superstar artist CARLOS PACHECO (AVENGERS FOREVER, X-MEN) blast into the Ultimate Universe for a mind-blowing, heart-pounding and gut-wrenching event of epic proportions! When a highly-classified secret threatens Captain America, only the newly-returned Nick Fury has the tools to bring ‘em in! As the first of a series of blockbuster arcs begins: PROJECT AVENGERS is a go!
32 PGS./Parental Advisory ...$3.99 In Stores August 12, 2009

http://www.newsarama.com/comics/070930-UltimateAvengers.html

And an opinionated rant by me,
Possibly NSFW for gore

Well Ultimatum is over at last! Hooray! But as this storyline has come to an end, it makes me wonder... is it worse than Countdown?

Hmm, well Countdown, with all its poor art, terrible writing and bad issue to issue continuity, mischaracterisation and Jimmy Olsen boning a giant anthropomorphic insect, at least had the benefits that 1. it was unintentionally hilarious a lot of the time, with at least one ridiculous thing an issue that would at least make you smirk over how dumb it was,

And 2. it was such a mess that even the event it was leading onto, Final Crisis, disowned it, so it never really had that much of an impact on other comics once it was over.

Not including all those comics it DID tie into while it was going on, or those fans of Duella Dent who objected to her being shot with a laser pistol that made regular bullet-shooting noises.

Ultimatum on the other hand...

Look to be honest, I give Jeph Loeb the benefit of the doubt a lot of the time, as I liked Long Halloween and Superman/Batman: Public Enemies. Heck, even after his horrible Ultimates storyline I was pleasantly suprised that he did a somewhat servicable annual where the various continuity errors his story had caused (when'd Black Panther switch places with Steve Rogers and why for example) were explained in a somewhat pleasing way.

BUT, for all of Countdown's faults, it never made you feel unclean just by reading it,

I mean seriously, good grief! And not only do they kill off huge amounts of (some at least likeable) characters in this mess they have them killed in the most horrible, grim fashion avaliable.

Take the death of Ultimate Dr Strange for example,
Editted Scans from the 4th Letter site, funny will disguise the pain... hopefully,

http://www.4thletter.net/2009/06/ultimatum-edit-week-4-day-three/

Ack. Yuck.

Look, I like horror films. I'm ok with gore for the most part, though I'm not really into the current turn of "tie someone up in a basement and make them saw off their foot" style of filmmaking.

Death and gore in comics I don't mind, as long as there's a point to it and if it fits with the series/universe it's based in. What goes on in Punisher Max wouldn't fit if done in a Batman comic, for example.

The violence and death in Ultimatum... I'm not sure how to articulate this properly.

Did someone like Ultimate Peter Parker steal a girl who Loeb like while he was in high school? Is he into vore? I dunno.

It just seems so... mean spirited. Wildstorm has had two reboots lately to slim down its continuity, with the Crisis-like Worldstorm and the post-apocalypticity thing they have/had going on at the moment, But as far as I could tell they didn't feel inclined to butcher all of the characters with too much backstory in order to save on recap pages.

And the worst thing is that while Countdown, as I mentioned, was mostly ignored by all the other DC comics who quietly seem to be trying to forget it existed, there are numerous storylines and series that are leading directly on FROM Ultimatum, such as the aforementioned Ultimate Avengers as well as Ultimate Armour Wars. So they can't exactly do a cliched reset button ending to bring all those people back to life again in the end.

It just irks me.

That's the main reason why Ultimatum is worse than Countdown for me: it happened, and it isn't going away.

Maybe they'll bring something good out of this dross, I don't know. But at least the future is brighter knowing there isn't really that much further down they can go from here.

Anyway, that's my opinion. What do you lot think?

(Post a new comment)

stolisomancer
2009-08-01 09:25 pm UTC (link)

I'm not sure it's a cut-and-dried "which is worse" argument. You might have to break it down all science-style.

Countdown Pros:
As you said, everyone's ignoring it for the most part.

Countdown Cons:
Fifty-two weekly issues, many of which feature something apocalyptically stupid.
High death count.
Jimmy Olsen: Bugfucker.
Forerunner.

Ultimatum Pros:
Didn't affect the mainstream universe.
Didn't have a lasting effect on Ultimate Spider-Man.
The idea of a shellshocked band of surviving X-Men led by Jean Grey is actually an interesting starting point, if nothing else.
Only five issues; killed fewer trees.

Ultimatum Cons:
Probably going to be responsible for the destruction of several comic book collections, as Mom finds an issue and immediately decides the house is now a comic-free zone.
Arbitrarily killed any number of potentially useful, interesting characters.
Reading it makes you more stupidider.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	neuhallidae 2009-08-01 09:57 pm UTC (link)
	Countdown had one major thing going for it that Ultimatum didn't: The music of Queen being badass enough to blow an entire planet. Other than that, they were both stupid as hell, with Ultimatum winning the "award" for Worst due to sheer levels of Gorn. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	interrobamf 2009-08-01 11:59 pm UTC (link)
	High death count. How many of those were people of any actual importance, though? Karate Kid and Una died, but they were dead before they brought back the pre-Crisis Legion, anyway. The New Gods died, but they were brought back instantly in Final Crisis. Lots of alternate universe dudes died, but they're not the main universe, so it hardly matters. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	hammster.livejournal.com 2009-08-01 09:42 pm UTC (link)
	shut up ultimate universe shut up a lot (Reply to this) (Thread)

	espanolbot 2009-08-01 09:52 pm UTC (link)
	Ultimate Spider-man is good though. :) (Reply to this) (Parent)

mcspakypants
2009-08-01 09:57 pm UTC (link)

Damn that's a freaky cover.

Anyway, I never read Countdown although I have seen scans of it here and on Linkara's EPIC 4 part review on thatguywiththeglasses.com, but I did read all of Ultimatum and while I think it's heavily flawed I just don't hate it as much as other people. I did think there was good character moments in it, mainly involving Wolverine, and the art was pretty good. Overall I'm still looking forward to all the new Ultimate books and if I really like them they may end up being the only books I get in singles format.

(Reply to this)

	xandertarbert 2009-08-01 10:03 pm UTC (link)
	I just want to finish drawing the rest of the Koonani Code on Ultimate Red Skull's head. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	yaseen101 2009-08-02 05:37 pm UTC (link)
	The Red Skull; bringing you your m*********ing deaths through Konami!!! (Reply to this) (Parent)

queenanthai
2009-08-01 10:04 pm UTC (link)

While Countdown was probably the STUPIDEST thing ever published, I have to go with Ultimatum being worse. It ruined the best thing Marvel had going for it with way over-the-top gore and just brutal, senseless killing-for-the-sake-of-shock-value. I don't care how they try to spin it; it IS killing for shock value. And that's meaningless and a bad idea.

At least Countdown's problems were mostly (MOSTLY) just OOC moments, bad pacing and horrible continuity/editorial problems.

Jeph Loeb just needs to stop. I can't think of one good thing he's written in the past five years. I feel badly for his personal problems, of course, but maybe he needs a sabbatical or something.

(Reply to this)

thanekos
2009-08-01 10:07 pm UTC (link)

ultimate red skull is captain america's illegitimate neo-nazi son.

okay, that's cool, i guess.

but did he really have to skin his own face for the look?

does he not comprehend how ridiculous he'll sound with no lips?

well, wait, looks he's left the lips. but then how's he gonna contend with the number of horrible infections heading his facial-muscles-exposed-to-air way?

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	404glitch 2009-08-02 01:28 am UTC (link)
	I refuse to believe that he skinned himself and instead just has a highly defined bone structure and dumped a bucket of blood over his (shaved) head. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	beoweasel 2009-08-02 08:40 am UTC (link)
	I dunno, I was thinking he could be a burn victim... (Reply to this) (Parent)

	nezchan 2009-08-02 01:31 am UTC (link)
	I told you not to pick at it! (Reply to this) (Parent)

	ashtoreth 2009-08-02 02:21 am UTC (link)
	He's Cap's son? That'll be interesting if they remember Ult Cap is already a bit fascist. Unfortunately, it reminds me of Skaar and Daken a bit too much. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	greenmask 2009-08-01 10:31 pm UTC (link)
	Flipping heck, Doctor Strange! D: I'm so glad I stopped reading Ultimate Anything ages ago. Ugh. (Reply to this)

	scottyquick 2009-08-01 11:37 pm UTC (link)
	Countdown had redeeming moments in its fail, like the whole "WHAP WHAP WHAP WHAP!", which made me laugh for five minutes straight, or "Donna Troy Bitch", which is hilarious. They're ooc and pretty boring once you get past those moments. Ultimatum didn't. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	mcspakypants 2009-08-01 11:55 pm UTC (link)
	I don't know about that, I thought the scene with Wolverine and Kitty in issue 4 was pretty good. And Wolverine's last stand in issue 5 was pretty epic in my opinion. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	mullon 2009-08-02 12:02 am UTC (link)
	I have to disagree very slightly. I think that after issue five it gets so horrifying and pointless that goes right back over the line into being funny, which is weird because I usually don't like vore. Of course, you not care about the universe at all. (Reply to this)

jynx.livejournal.com
2009-08-02 04:51 am UTC (link)

...dude, srsly. don't compare countdown to ultimates. there is NOTHING redeemable about ultimates. at least with countdown there is jason and there is trickster and piper. ultimates is just...nasty. a huge cluster fuck. yes, high death count. yes, it's convoluted and confusing, but srsly. not it's not NEARLY as nasty as ults.

and red skull as cap's SON!? srsly takes the cake. mark millar can go burn in a fiery pit. along with everything else he's ever written

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	Mod Note angelophile 2009-08-03 11:20 am UTC (link)
	Okay, that's going too far. Criticism of the work is fine, but personal abuse is not under our community ethos. Please ensure this doesn't happen again. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	queenanthai 2009-08-02 05:30 am UTC (link)
	Okay, so I just expanded on this and turned it into a giant rant. Yeah, it was bugging me all day. Stupid Loeb. http://sweetdragon.livejournal.com/671242.html (Reply to this) (Thread)

billy_vagrant
2009-08-02 02:11 pm UTC (link)

For what it's worth, I completely agree with you. There's certain genres that just don't *work* with that sort of thing. Plus, I've been finding it strange for the last few years that I can read Northlanders (a mature readers title about Vikings) and find less overt and in-your-face references to cannibalism and sexual assault than I do in books about Superman (Identity Crisis) and Captain America (Ultimate Clusterfuck). There's totally a place for "mature," but most of this stuff seems to strive for puerile.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	jfurioso 2009-08-03 12:51 am UTC (link)
	The thing most people miss about the superhero genre is that one of its underpinnings is the idea of doing good and being able to make a difference. A level of competence is rather necessary. You HAVE to make that difference. You have to be a HERO, and do something SUPER. This kind of thing rather misses it. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	mrmojorisin1135 2009-08-02 07:40 am UTC (link)
	Undead Doctor Doom? Anybody? C'mon? (Reply to this)

billy_vagrant
2009-08-02 02:08 pm UTC (link)

I think there's a valid basis for comparing Ultimatum and Countdown, as they're both (in the eyes of fans and critics) rather outlandish failures. Countdown didn't do anything to lead into Final Crisis or bring secondary characters into the spotlight. And Ultimatum, I think, will prove to be a failure as it attempts to reboot the Ultimate U continuity.

Still, I think Ultimatum is the "worse" title, simply because we can more easily ignore Countdown. Speaking for myself, Ultimatum completely ruined most of the line for me. The wholesale slaughter of most of the interesting X-Men keeps me from developing interest in that book again. Killing off Janet and Thor removes two of the more likable characters from the Ultimates. Doom is gone, so that removes impetus from the Fantastic Four. And some of the survivors (The Thing, and Quicksilver) were painfully OOC by the end, and I'm going to have a hard time being able to enjoy them after all this. And all this isn't even touching on the level of violence porn throughout the comic.

I guess the saving grace in all this is that Ultimate Spider-Man's cast seems like it'll remain mostly untouched (aside from a nice character arc for Jonah Jameson). Because, really, what about that book *needed* a reboot?

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	ashtoreth 2009-08-03 02:20 am UTC (link)
	So, Ultimatum is One More Day for you? (Basically, you must swallow the OMD reboot to get to BND, like it or hate it) (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

*really* late reply

billy_vagrant
2009-08-04 02:33 am UTC (link)

Yeah, I could see that comparison. Both titles kind of represent editorial throwing up their hands and saying "I give up; I can't tell stories with these characters" when such a statement is just unnecessary. Both stories also featured characters careening toward the moral event horizon (Peter's deal with the devil; Ben Grimm becoming a bare-fisted murderer). Both show a change in storytelling style that doesn't mesh with what made the original books fun for their fans in the first place.

I think Ultimatum may do OMD one better simply because it took more of the Ultimate U completely off the board by removing a number of key characters with a great deal of story potential. Of course, OMD also has the distinction of making a lot of stuff in the regular Marvel line insanely confusing, so your mileage may vary.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

	zordboy 2009-08-02 02:22 pm UTC (link)
	Countdown versus Ultimatum... I don't know. For me, it's six for one, half a dozen for the other. The gore and violence in Ultimatum was just so pointless, but Countdown lasted for 52 fucking issues. Every time I try and pin down which one was worse, I go back to the other one. Both mangled and killed, as far as I'm concerned. (Reply to this)

cygna_hime
2009-08-02 04:53 pm UTC (link)

On the one hand, Countdown killed most of the likeable characters who got near it, failed at writing, and blasted the so-called heroes past the Moral Event Horizon at an appreciable fraction of the speed of light. On the other hand, it never managed to induce both nausea and rage in me with just one panel. Goddammit, I just ate!

Plus, blowing up a planet with Queen was cool, and it left Jason Todd in a good place even if no one else who touched him bothered to notice. So, that's two redeeming features. Anyone got one for Ultimatum? Anyone?

Yeah, I thought not.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	espanolbot 2009-08-02 04:59 pm UTC (link)
	Plus Countdown had Harley Quinn and Holly Robinson, who are always amusing most of the time. :) What Queen song was it though? I can't remember. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	neuhallidae 2009-08-03 12:17 am UTC (link)
	"The Show Must Go On". (Reply to this) (Parent)

	proteus_lives 2009-08-02 11:42 pm UTC (link)
	Making the Red Skull Cap's son could be interesting. But that is an awesome cover. (Reply to this)