InsaneJournal

Tweak says, "you da dude"

bluefall (bluefall) wrote in scans_daily,
@ 2009-06-24 12:20:00

Entry tags:

char: achilles of thalarion, char: alkyone of themyscira, char: ares/dc, char: hippolyta of themyscira, char: wonder woman/diana of themyscira, char: zeus/dc, creator: aaron lopresti, creator: gail simone, publisher: dc comics, title: wonder woman

Wondy 33
Four pages from today's Wondy.

So, the sea monsters from the preview attack the island. The amazons fight back. Ares shows up.

WHUT. She won't kill Genocide, but she will kill Ares? She can kill Ares? Since when? He's the god of war. The whole point of him is that he outclasses her as much as Clark outclasses Jim Gordon.

They're on Thalarion at this point, and Zeus shows up and is all "be a wife and mother, and oh I killed Kane."

When WML does a better Polly than Gail, something is badly wrong with the universe.

... yeah.

On the plus side, I've had to cut back on luxuries recently and I've been waffling over what titles to cut, and this makes that decision easier at least..

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Kind of tangential and all over the place, but...

parsimonia
2009-06-26 07:47 pm UTC (link)

Diana, on the other hand, explicitly draws strength from community.

You know, there are many reasons why that aspect of Wonder Woman can cause discomfort, I realize. Not only the political/cultural differences between modern Western society and Amazon culture, but as you mentioned somewhere else in the thread, it goes against the ideas of individualism, independence and answering to no one but yourself.

On top of that, everyone has the mental baggage of Marston's bondage and submission themes, and general confusion over just what feminism is exactly. But she has the burden of being the big-name female superhero, so she's got to be feminist and represent feminism, otherwise it's sexist. And perhaps because feminism, and the feminism that most of us know, is rooted in modern Western culture, it's hard to separate feminism from the ideas of individualism, independence and answering to no one but yourself.

If Diana is all about community, then submitting to her mother or her sisters or the gods, any instance when she does what someone else asks, there's an argument somewhere in there about that submission being anti-feminist.

The problem with DC's Trinity is that Wonder Woman automatically becomes The Girl, and by extension represents all girls and women. So anything she says or does or anything that happens to her is automatically subject to so much more scrutiny that doing something her Zeus or Superman or whoever asks of her is arguably a Big Deal.

I can't help but picture Wonder Woman as Atlas, with the world on her shoulders. She carries such a burden, because she's almost always the only one seen and assumed to be carrying it.

(My solution of course is to promote Oracle to being up there with, and equally important and influential as, Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman. More choices in heroes and heroic styles, and do away with Wonder Woman being forever stuck with being The Girl and the only one who can represent feminism. Of course, there's no reason why Clark and Bruce can't be feminists, but having another woman up there allows for variety in feminism and femininity as well.)

(And really, I'd argue that putting community first above individualism is often beneficial to everyone and promotes equality and thus can be seen as more feminist. E.g. public healthcare.)

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that's how we like it here.

bluefall
2009-06-26 08:32 pm UTC (link)

If Diana is all about community, then submitting to her mother or her sisters or the gods, any instance when she does what someone else asks, there's an argument somewhere in there about that submission being anti-feminist.

Well, that's always been a tricky balance for me personally, because certainly, it's incredibly important to me that the people Diana submits to are her mother and Athena and Aphrodite, and not Clark and Zeus and Poseidon, or whoever. I mean, even assuming Zeus was a legitimate patron and not a spazzball of ruination and woe. Because while it's very true that submission to a legitimate authority whom you love and trust is a good worldview to have in the mix on an absolute level, when offered up in the form of a female submitting to a male, it carries all kinds of nasty problematic cultural baggage that absolutely does not need to be anywhere near Diana.

But on the other hand, the communal aspect of her character is, to me, central to her feminism (which is again, to me, central to her character). Community is a very feminine-gendered thing - whether by nature or nurture may be up for debate, but is also entirely beside the point - and that feeds off of and into a dismissal of community as something relevant to a hero. Asking for help is feminine, having a support structure is feminine, admitting the need for a support structure is feminine, being nurtured is feminine. Coincidentally, these are all also signs of weakness. I think it's important that Diana is a refutation of that, because it's a refutation of the idea that a woman has to be *like* a man, has to discard all things feminine (I would even go so far as to say authentically feminine, to delineate this argument from the "women who don't shave" bullshit), in order to have achieved equality with men. Because if the only way to be as badass as a male hero is to give up everything that makes you different from him, is that really equality?

Not that, as you say, this should be a universal conceit. A phrase that can pretty much without fail get my teeth grinding painfully is "men with breasts," because who the fuck are you to tell me Renee Montoya is not a "real" woman, and why don't you come say that to the face of the five women I know who are exactly like her? But I do think that "women who are heroes in traditionally masculine ways" are fairly well represented, comparatively, while "women who are heroes in traditionally feminine ways" are bare on the ground like snow in March, and we need Diana out there carrying that banner.

Which is of course much easier if you've got another woman up there carrying the other banner so people stop trying to give it to Diana,* making your suggestion of Oracle a pretty awesome one, because Babs very much *is* the tough loner from tragedy who makes her own calls and answers to no one, so there's your perfect demonstration right there that both paths are valid and important to maintain. (Also, Babs has a far more legitimate in-universe claim to a place in the center of the spandex universe than Bruce does, but the DCU has always been much more metatextual than not.)

* Whoa damn did I just have an interesting thought about Geoff Johns' writing habits.

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Re: that's how we like it here.

parsimonia
2009-06-29 10:50 pm UTC (link)

Coincidentally, these are all also signs of weakness

It's funny how not being able to ask for help is also a huge weakness, but someone who doesn't ask for help always retains that veneer of being tough guy.

because it's a refutation of the idea that a woman has to be *like* a man, has to discard all things feminine

Yes! It took me forever to realize that if I liked or wanted to do traditionally feminine things, that didn't mean I was buying into sexism or sexist culture.

(I would even go so far as to say authentically feminine, to delineate this argument from the "women who don't shave" bullshit)

Not quite sure I follow you, there.

But I do think that "women who are heroes in traditionally masculine ways" are fairly well represented, comparatively, while "women who are heroes in traditionally feminine ways" are bare on the ground like snow in March, and we need Diana out there carrying that banner.

Agreed. Suddenly I'm picturing a superhero in a bright pink costume. Misfit could totally pull that off.

You know, I would really like to see a scene where Babs and Diana meet for the first time. Probably set during her Batgirl years. I can see a younger Babs being less of a feminist than she would become later on. I mean, obviously, she's not going to buy into anyone's "she's just a girl" bullshit, but in terms of dealing with other women, I can see there being a touch of misogyny on her part. I think it's the part in Batgirl: Year One, when she's at the costume store and the store clerk says he has a WW costume, and her reaction is a condescending "Please..." or something similar, that's influencing me on that.

Especially if they got onto the topic of feminism for whatever reason, I can see Babs being all "Psh, I took Women's Studies 101, I know everything about feminism." And then Diana would make some observation that would make Babs think twice and re-examine.

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