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runespoor7 ([info]runespoor7) wrote in [info]scans_daily,
@ 2009-06-10 09:05:00

Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Entry tags:char: batman/bruce wayne, char: joker, char: robin/red hood/jason todd, creator: judd winick, series: one perfect moment week, title: batman

One Perfect Moment: Jason Todd
From Batman #650.





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[info]faile_neume
2009-06-10 02:37 am UTC (link)
Why so crazy Jason? Why so crazy!? Poor boy.

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[info]jcbaggee
2009-06-10 02:44 am UTC (link)
I miss this Jason. The one that wasn't bratty or evil, the one that was hurt because he died one day and woke up a few weeks later, only to find no one avenged his death. Admit it, you'd be pissed too.

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[info]icon_uk
2009-06-10 03:28 am UTC (link)
If I'd come back to find my Dad had broken the ONE rule of his life that he held true above all others, I'd be appalled and disappointed.

Seriously, I just don't get this as a motivation "Batman doesn't kill Joker, regardless of the provocation" should hardly come as a surprise, aprticularly not to a Robin.

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[info]taggerung301
2009-06-10 06:38 am UTC (link)
very true

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[info]ladymirth
2009-06-10 08:53 am UTC (link)
But if I thought that my Dad's one rule was utter crap, and then something horrific happened to me because of that rule, and I come back to see that it still hasn't taught my Dad anything, well I'd be pretty pissed.

I'm with Jason. The Joker has run out of chances a long time ago, letting him run around when nothing and no one can hold him or cure him is utter madness and refraining from killing him because your egotistical morality play won't let you get your hands dirty makes him a failure as protector and responsible for the innocent lives that gets ruined as a result. Also, I want my Dad to love me more than his mission.

Conclusion: Jason and I are both emotionally needy and jaded kids who do not have the uncompromisng moral fibre required to be Robin.

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[info]icon_uk
2009-06-10 09:01 am UTC (link)
But I'd hope I'd see that my Dad's rule was important to HIM, and remained so. Moral stands are easy when it's easy, it's those who can stick to them despite overwhelming temptations not to that know how hard such things really are.

Plus Batman IS a vigilante, he has no right to use lethal force. That's for the courts to decide, and their continued refusal to do so is the problem, not Batman.

As I say, if Jason was this mad at the Joker being alive, he wouild have killed him himself.

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[info]ladymirth
2009-06-10 09:13 am UTC (link)
Jason knew that the Joker was just a rabid dog. He has no capacity for remorese, fear or humiliation. Killing him would be an empty victory. The true triumph would have been to get Bruce to do it. It seems very obvious to the reader that Batman wouldn't do it (although he came pretty close in Inifnite Crisis when Nightwing nearly died) but Jason is a tangled morass of emotional trauma and insecurity here, and incapable of anything but a purely visceral emotional response where Bruce is concerned.

Rationally, it does not make sense. But Jason is not rational.

Of course what does not make sense at all is why Jason didn't just off-handedly put a bullet in the Joker once he realized Bruce wasn't going to do it. Or why he hasn't killed him at all yet. In fact, the fact that no one has killed the Joker yet is friggin unbelievable.

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[info]kagome654
2009-06-10 09:32 am UTC (link)
Batman has no right to do A LOT of what he does.

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[info]icon_uk
2009-06-10 09:41 am UTC (link)
Oh absolutely, 98% of superheroes, and the entre foundation of Civil War, are based on that.

But whilst citizens arrest and the like can be used as some sort of a foundation for a lot, cold blooded murder is not included.

As others have noted, it's the fact that some non-Bat person hasn't shot the Joker full of holes then run a steamroller over his head, that is the truly (if editorially mandated) problem (and why I would ever give the Joker the bodycount he does.

When he's focussed on committing crimes, culminating in an attempt to kill Batman and Robin, and there maybe a henchwork related fatality, so be it, but everybody and their mother in the DCU must have lost a loved on to the Joker by now.

I miss "capers", the old "series of themed crimes which don't revolve around mass murder" notion. We need more of those...

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[info]kagome654
2009-06-10 10:01 am UTC (link)
I miss "capers", the old "series of themed crimes which don't revolve around mass murder" notion. We need more of those...

I can't argue with that. I don't know where so many writers got the idea that readers want ALL the villains the heroes face to be psychotic mass murderers. The Joker is a lot more effective when he comes into a room and you have no freaking idea what he's going to do! As he is now we can generally expect him to kill a bunch of people in increasingly horrible ways. Yeah...that's 'fun.' There should be a balance people, a balance! I like heroes who don't kill, but the more horrendous the criminals are, the more ineffectual the hero looks. Use the mass murderers sparingly. Relying on them too much is boring...and kinda lazy.

I want a stylish gentleman thief, more goofy themed crimes, a few awkward villain/hero team ups, a mad scientist or two and maybe another Legion of Losers (or something of the ilk). Is that too much to ask?

Pardon me while I rant, it's a bit of a sore spot.

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[info]mcity
2009-06-10 10:12 am UTC (link)
I still have this idea for a comic where Matches Malone and Robin, under an alias, come into a comedy-club and watch a familiar looking guy on-stage. He's just slayin' em, really cleaning up. Then they go backstage and reveal they know it's the Joker. He says he was going to go back to Arkham anyway, but they might as well give him a ride.

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[info]kagome654
2009-06-10 10:22 am UTC (link)
See, now that I like. A funny moment that draws on the Joker's 'history' and seemingly lighthearted MO, but that still has a hint of potential danger behind it (what would have happened if they didn't like his act?). Despite my bitching I do like the Joker, simply because there is so much you can do with him! I just wish they wouldn't settle for 'guy who laughs as he shoots you in the face' so often.

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[info]icon_uk
2009-07-02 11:40 pm UTC (link)
There a text story in the short story book about the Joker hijacking open-mike nights at comedy clubs and taking his displeasure out on the comedians who fail to amuse, where we see EXACTLY what he does, and it's not pretty. It does feature a strange new comedian, who dresses expensively, seems to have no sense of humour, and calls himself Bruce...

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[info]toasty_fresh
2009-06-10 12:54 pm UTC (link)
Motto.

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[info]unknownscribler
2009-06-11 08:26 am UTC (link)
The ethos of the American constitution -- that when something goe wrong, those who have the capacity to do something about it have the obligation to do so -- arguably says otherwise

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[info]parsimonia
2009-06-10 03:41 pm UTC (link)
I agree with the sentiment of your points, but I think that Jason is just a bit too petty and emotionally needy to be thinking about what's important to Bruce in this context. He's too hurt and messed up at this point.

Now, if they'd taken Jason from here and slowly had him gain some sense and lose a bit of the crazy, I could see him coming around to at least understand Bruce's point of view, even if he didn't like it or agree with it.

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[info]unknownscribler
2009-06-11 08:24 am UTC (link)
False premise. By becoming a vigilante, he's admitted that the rule of law as it stands has failed, so he's bound by it only as much as he wants to be.

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[info]unknownscribler
2009-06-11 08:22 am UTC (link)
So very much THIS

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[info]toasty_fresh
2009-06-10 12:52 pm UTC (link)
f I'd come back to find my Dad had broken the ONE rule of his life that he held true above all others, I'd be appalled and disappointed.

I don't know if you would if you were in Jason's situation. Think of it this way: he's not really thinking rationally at this point. He's not thinking "How is this going to make my dad feel? What is tis going to do to his morals" He's thinking "Why didn't he do anything when I died?" He wants Bruce to prove that he loves Jason, that he was angry at the Joker for what he did, that he wanted in some way to avenge Jason's death, etc. He wants Bruce to prove that he cares. Now, is asking Bruce to kill the Joker, which is against his cardinal rule, the best way to achieve this? Probably not, but because of everything that has happened to Jason (including, idk, getting beaten to death by the Joker), to him, it seems to be the only way.

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[info]runespoor7
2009-06-10 04:34 pm UTC (link)
How would you feel if you found out he'd broken it for you? Jason thinks it's a proof of love. What he wants is for Bruce to reassure him that Bruce loves him, and for any number of reasons - top of which is having become convinced that Bruce never loved him enough - he picks the one most impossible choice to give Bruce. Jason is all but saying that he finds dying a preferable option to living if Bruce doesn't love him, here. He's not thinking rationally, he's making one last desperate stand and he's set himself up to fail. I don't think there's any surprise involved; he wouldn't be crying if he was.

Then there's the issue of Jason thinking that some criminals should be killed, and wanting Bruce to admit it. I suspect the reason why he hasn't killed Joker is that he wants Bruce to kill him. Pre-Countdown at least, that was Jason's opinion on how the aftermath of his death should have gone. (How Earth-51 made him change his mind is anyone's guess since DC isn't giving much clues, but the visit at least seemed to have a couple of consequences on his opinion on a short term.)

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[info]killermoth1
2009-06-10 03:21 am UTC (link)
Mock him all you want, but Judd Winick is the only writer to understand resurrected Jason and the only person to write him well. I love how he isn't like your typical well intentioned extremist in that he's self righteous claiming that his way is the right way like in the crappy BFTC, he acts more like the Operative from Serenity; He knows what he's doing is monstrous, but he realises it is a necessity.

But cheer up everyone, remember we still have yet to find out what horrible thing happened to Jason in his childhood! Was it violent abuse? Rape? You decide!

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[info]icon_uk
2009-06-10 03:30 am UTC (link)
He knows what he's doing is monstrous, but he realises it is a necessity.

Except if that were the case why hasn't JASON killed the Joker by this point? Trying to make Batman do it is past "necessity" and into "ludicrous"

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[info]killermoth1
2009-06-10 03:43 am UTC (link)
Except if that were the case why hasn't JASON killed the Joker by this point? Trying to make Batman do it is past "necessity" and into "ludicrous"
Good point, he kind of has a Proffesor Zoom thing going on with Batman doesn't he?

Still, I take that as the exception, since as he says in the scans it was more personal with Joker, as opposed to the drug dealers and gangsters he killed earlier in the story, as well as taking down Mr Freeze.

But really, this part of the story, while pretty awesome with what Jason is saying to Batman, is where the story sort of leapt off the tracks. The preceding parts had better art and cooler Jason.

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[info]janegray
2009-06-10 03:41 pm UTC (link)
Except if that were the case why hasn't JASON killed the Joker by this point? Trying to make Batman do it is past "necessity" and into "ludicrous"

1)Because love (even filial love) makes you dumb. Especially when you are a teenager. Jason is all "you didn't love me! you forgot me! PROVE IT TO ME THAT YOU LOVE ME, GODDAMNIT!" because, to him, getting Bruce to prove his love is more important than anything else, even than his own life.

2)Because in the DCU nobody can kill the Joker ever. There is a reason the trope is called "Joker Immunity."

And yes, that's ludicrous. I freaking hate that trope.

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[info]ladymirth
2009-06-10 08:39 am UTC (link)
The first and last time a writer got Jason Todd right.

I loved this story and I was with Jason every step of the way, even if I could understand that it was beyond Bruce to kill the Joker. But poor, traumatized, angry Jason who only wanted that single piece of evidence that Bruce still cared about him as much as Jason loved him couldn't see it. A street kid who'd seen as much as he had would never buy Bruce's "sanctity of all life" crap. He just wanted Bruce's eyes also to finally open to the fact that you can't protect both villains and innocents. Morever, after having been detrayed by his own biological mother and then the whole trauma of waking up and realizing he'd been replaced would give him all the more reason to need that ultimate reassurance from Bruce that he still considered him a son.

The guy has PTSD issues from before he died. Not exactly the poster child for the rational thinker, our Jason Todd. But that's why I love him.

Also, seeing him beat the Joker within an inch of his life WITH A CROWBAR was endlessly awesome!

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[info]ladymirth
2009-06-10 08:42 am UTC (link)
That tear in his eye in the final panel kills me every freaking time.

*goes off to read Batman and Sons to snuggle the Robins*

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[info]iesika
2009-06-10 08:46 am UTC (link)
I...really want this issue now. Wow.

The icing on the cake? How much Joker seems to be enjoying the situation.

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[info]daggerpen
2009-06-10 05:38 pm UTC (link)
Whole arc's collected in Under the Hood. There are two volumes: this is penultimate issue of volume II.

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[info]nymphgalatea
2009-06-10 10:08 am UTC (link)
I'm not a big Judd Winick fan, but this is one of the few occassions I thoroughly enjoyed his writing. He gets Jason in a way that no other writer can.

Its a pity this is in-continuity really, because if it had been a sort of Elseworlds standalone deal I could simply enjoy this for what it was: a solidly written, beautifully illustrated take on how Todds' resurrection might have gone, and why the poor boy was doomed.

As it is, I can't read it without thinking about Countdown and Battle for the Cowl, which are the absolute opposite of well-written and beautifully illustrated. Pity, really.

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[info]ladymirth
2009-06-10 10:26 am UTC (link)
What is this Countdown and Battle for the Cowl you speak of?

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[info]nymphgalatea
2009-06-10 02:01 pm UTC (link)
Possibly some sort of alcohol-fueled nightmare? Certainly nothing that was published and irrepairably damaged the reputation of DC Comics amongst the fanbase.

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[info]sistermagpie
2009-06-10 11:08 am UTC (link)
Jason really gets me hear. I love him. I agree with icon that what he's asking isn't right, but it's right in terms of where Jason's coming from. Because it's really not, as I read it, about Jason's philosophy or Batman's. It's that childish need for Batman to love him before anything else. It's like in fairy tales the way there's something comforting about the witch in Rapunzel who wants to lock her away from the world--she's wanted.

Jason woke up in a box and felt like the whole world had just forgotten about him. Of course he'd fasten on some symbol that proves Bruce cared about him more than his mission. He made it an impossible symbol, of course, and underneath I don't think he really wants Bruce to betray his own principles. He just wants to feel like he mattered. Or more likely, he's proving to *himself* that Bruce never really loved him. Which he's doing here--how much clearer could it get? Shoot me, or shoot him. It's a twist on the "who do you save" situation.

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[info]starwolf_oakley
2009-06-10 12:04 pm UTC (link)
Jason never asks Bruce "Was I that unimportant to you?" After all, he doesn't know about the Fragile Memorial Case. But it is in everything he does in UNDER THE HOOD. The idea Batman never killed the Joker adds to the idea "Is HE somehow more important to you than ME?"

And I still believe Lazarus Pit Crazy Juice has something to do with it, as Ra's Al Ghul was using it AT THE SAME TIME she tossed Jason in it. And Ra's Al Ghul has his own set of "old school" morals.

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[info]sistermagpie
2009-06-10 12:55 pm UTC (link)
Yes, totally. Everything Jason does here seems to be about validation from Bruce and seriously why wouldn't he need that? That history would make me just as insecure! It's a very valid question for him to ask--but of course he would never ask it outright. And Bruce has a hard time saying it in other ways. All the Robins share that insecurity to some extent (Tim least of all due to his personality and circumstances) but the other ones had time and experience to work it out and get that validation. Jason really does need people to do the reaching out here.

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[info]shadowvalkyrie
2009-06-10 02:45 pm UTC (link)
That. Exactly that. And if Bruce was just a little better at emotional communication, he'd see that. It's not (or not primarily) about killing the Joker, it's about telling Jason that he's loved, and Bruce just fails utterly at realising it. All he sees is his principles being in jeopardy. And I'm fairly sure that's because he doesn't understand that Jason could ever doubt his love. Or Dick, for that matter. Bruce thinks his love for them must be as obvious and self-explanatory to them, as it is to him. Which it absolutely isn't, because he never showed it. Tragic vicious cycle.

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[info]sistermagpie
2009-06-10 03:01 pm UTC (link)
That is so the best bat-dickery explanation in a nutshell. Because even when I know he drives people crazy, I can get how he feels. To Bruce these feelings are so overpowering he thinks they must be obvious to everybody no matter how he tries to hide them. I think even when he gets that he doesn't show or communicate feelings well he still thinks his family understand how much he loves them. He's really bunged up in this area.

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[info]daggerpen
2009-06-10 05:40 pm UTC (link)
This.

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[info]runespoor7
2009-06-10 05:58 pm UTC (link)
One of my biggest disappointments/hopes for the future is that we never got to know what Jason thought when he saw the Case in the cave, when he came in to hear Bruce's message. Way to tease, DC. Please don't feel obligated to reveal how he felt until you find a writer who can express it in as heartbreakingly perfect a way as the above scans.

It's a twist on the "who do you save" situation.

Yeah. In a certain way, it's also an Oedipian scene; the subtext has always been there in shades, but Under the Hood plays a lot with it. Earlier in the arc, Joker says that "comedy is best in threes. Like Batman, Robin and me", to which Jason absently replies, "yeah, we're one big happy family". The link between Joker and Jason's mother, of course, goes without saying. Jason takes Joker's old identity to goad Batman. I don't know if Jason's aware of Joker being the symbol Bruce puts on not crossing the line, but he's trying to get to being Bruce's most important thing. (It's worth noting that the previous issue ended with Blüdhaven exploding and Jason managing in getting Bruce to stay rather than flying off to check on Dick, so that was a win - but only because Jason told Bruce Joker was going to die if Bruce left, so that wasn't.)

Or more likely, he's proving to *himself* that Bruce never really loved him.
Exactly. I can't imagine Jason didn't know on some level that he was setting himself up to fail. There was no way Bruce was going to cross the line, and if Jason really thought he would - well, then he's a lot more delusional/fucked-up/in love (and I mean filial love just as easily as romantic love) than he generally manages to act.

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[info]lipsofpoison
2009-06-20 08:44 pm UTC (link)
One of my biggest disappointments/hopes for the future is that we never got to know what Jason thought when he saw the Case in the cave, when he came in to hear Bruce's message. THIS. When I first saw him looking at the cases, for a moment, I thought the emphasis was on the Robin costume, not the bat one.

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[info]lipsofpoison
2009-06-20 08:47 pm UTC (link)
This is, without a doubt, my favourite moment too. I think the issue here could be one of Bruce vs. Batman. Batman can't comprimise his morals but Bruce wants his son back as much as Jason needs his family. You can really see not only Jason's anguish here, but Bruce's and in the end, he is in the suit, he is Batman and he can't change that and in a way, it's breaking both of them.

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[info]shadowvalkyrie
2009-06-10 02:32 pm UTC (link)
I want this Jason back so badly! So hurt and irrational, but very understandably so and still deeply sympathetic, not a crazy, randomly murdering sociopath who doesn't give a shit about collateral damage.

"...because he took me away from you." Oh, Jay!

*locks him and Bruce into a room together until they've resolved their issues*

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[info]janegray
2009-06-10 03:48 pm UTC (link)
I want this Jason back ;_;

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[info]daggerpen
2009-06-10 05:32 pm UTC (link)
*hugs well-characterized Jason and tries to subtly drag him back into current canon*

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