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starwolf_oakley (starwolf_oakley) wrote in scans_daily,
@ 2009-04-29 10:32:00

Entry tags:

char: savior 28, char: wonder man/simon williams, creator: brian michael bendis, creator: j.m. dematteis

J.M. DeMatteis' new IDW series THE LIFE AND TIMES OF SAVIOR 28 has a superhero that wants to give up a life of violence. And Simon Williams does the same.

THE LIFE AND TIMES OF SAVIOR 28 is a superhero murder mystery where the victim is Savior 28. The titular superhero, a Superman/Captain America pastiche (with a little of the Spirit tossed in) wants to give up his life of violence, saying it never really accomplished anything. J.M. DeMatteis said on the Word Balloon podcast that it's based on an idea he had for CAPTAIN AMERICA #300 back in the 1980s. Comic Book Urban Legends gives details.

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2007/03/15/comic-book-urban-legends-revealed-94/

"It was to reach a turning point with a double-sized CAP #300 in which the Red Skull dies and Cap, after (at the time) forty-plus years of solving problems with his fists, begins to wonder if there’s another way to live his ideals and change the world. In the proposal I presented to my editor, the late, great Mark Gruenwald, Cap was, ultimately, going to disavow violence as a tool for change-essentially rejecting the entire superhero mindset-and start working for world peace. (Keep in mind that this was at the height of the Reagan “evil empire”/cold war period, so it was a pretty radical idea for its day.)"

Most people would turn against Steve Rogers, he would then be assassinated, and there would be a new Captain America. Mark Gruenwald liked it, but Jim Shooter did not. Shooter said that idea wouldn't work with Steve Rogers.

"At the time I was angry but, in retrospect, I totally understand Shooter's POV. Jim-a brilliant editor and a guy who really helped me along in the early days of my career-was the custodian of the Marvel Universe: he had to protect the characters as he understood them. As noted, my idea was extremely radical for its day: I mean-Captain American involved in political controversy and then assassinated? How could anything like that every happen?

Just goes to show you how times change."

Savior 28 comes to a similar conclusion after the death of his "opposite number" Savior 13 and his now-elderly former girlfriend Samantha. A 1940s flashback reveals Samantha wanted to change the world with compassion instead of violence. Over 60 years later...

"...And to hell with me, too."

And then Savior 28 is assassinated. And the story is only beginning! We learn the 2001 terrorist attacks broke Savior 28's spirit. Only the attacks happen on September 12, 2001 instead of the day before.

There's similar concept in NEW AVENGERS #51. Simon Williams, a.k.a. Wonder Man, says using violence to uphold justice has caused nothing but heartache and death. He's even sorry he kept getting "sucked" back into the Avengers.

A superhero comic, even a "deconstruction" like Savior 28, talking about violence not solving anything? Wild. Of course, plenty of Superman and Batman stories have shown how Clark and Bruce fight crime in their "day jobs."

What superhero would "give up" violence? Maybe Batgirl and Spider-Man. Cassandra Cain was raised in violence and her becoming non-violent could work. Former wallflower Peter Parker could figure out "great responsibility" doesn't always mean beating someone unconscious. magus_69 on noscans_daily cited Arrowette of Young Justice as an example, albeit a special case.

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	mullon 2009-04-29 12:38 pm UTC (link)
	That fourth panel is just so sad. I'm not sure this idea works for an independant superhero, though. Sure there is probably a good chance that they are not going to affect the whole world. But every single time a person's life is saved counts for something. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	xlineartx 2009-04-29 12:50 pm UTC (link)
	I like it better with a creator-owned universe, if it's going to pan out the way his Cap idea did, for the sole reason that killing a character in a shared universe is almost never a good idea, especially one as prominent as Captain America. Someone's going to almost certainly retcon it, which undermines the very concept of death and the circle of life. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	greenmask 2009-04-29 05:59 pm UTC (link)
	It really is just so sad. This looks to maybe be the kind of book that I can't read because it will break my heart. (Reply to this) (Parent)

filbypott
2009-04-29 01:10 pm UTC (link)

Note how the people who like Savior 28 are on the left side of the crowd and the ones chanting "Traitor!" are on the right. Real subtle.

But seriously, I like the premise. It's something I may have to check out.

Remember Hawk and Dove? I think that was the first and to date only exploration of what it means to be a pacifist superhero from the Big Two. Only problem is it never got a balanced treatment: When Steve Ditko was writing them, Dove was always a stereotypical weak, limp-wristed liberal, and when anyone else wrote them Hawk was always a musclebrained warmonger.

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	(Anonymous) 2009-04-29 01:19 pm UTC (link)
	What about their JLU showing? (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	starwolf_oakley 2009-04-29 04:21 pm UTC (link)
	In the JLU, it just seemed to be their respective fighting styles. Hawk fought like a boxer, while Dove used an opponent's momentum against him. Dove seemed more unafraid to defend himself and others than an utter wuss. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

filbypott
2009-04-29 07:46 pm UTC (link)

That's how Dove should have been written from the start, IMO. It's not that he's afraid to engage the enemy or get physical; he just tries as hard as he can not to inflict lasting harm and fights to subdue as painlessly as possible.

Still, I think they gave Hawk a bum deal on JLU. Ideally, to me, they'd both have instances when they're in the right. That said, I realize that Dove defeating the instrument of the God of War was necessary for the plot, and if they'd made any further appearances I'm sure they would have been more balanced.

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icon_uk
2009-04-29 02:12 pm UTC (link)

Note how the people who like Savior 28 are on the left side of the crowd and the ones chanting "Traitor!" are on the right. Real subtle

Depends if you're facing the stage from the audience or looking out from it, no?

Remember Hawk and Dove? I think that was the first and to date only exploration of what it means to be a pacifist superhero from the Big Two. Only problem is it never got a balanced treatment: When Steve Ditko was writing them, Dove was always a stereotypical weak, limp-wristed liberal, and when anyone else wrote them Hawk was always a musclebrained warmonger.

Made worse in the post-CoIE/pre-Dawn-Grainger days when Hawk was a solo act...

Hawk as a solo character was both a wrongheaded idea, and embodied just about everything I loathe about the era's superheroes. Thankfully the Kesel's came along...

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	filbypott 2009-04-29 02:54 pm UTC (link)
	Depends if you're facing the stage from the audience or looking out from it, no? From the reader's perspective, I mean. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	icon_uk 2009-04-29 03:01 pm UTC (link)
	We see it from both front and back though. Mostly from the front I agree, but I don't think I see it as a deliberate stylistic choice. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	jlbarnett 2009-04-29 10:17 pm UTC (link)
	it's a stupid idea frankly. Forget talk of "changing the world" superheroes stopping being superheroes makes as much sense as police officers quitting the police force because they haven't eliminated criminals. (Reply to this) (Thread)

ashtoreth
2009-04-30 12:10 am UTC (link)

I agree. The only problem is when you insist on extremes. Justice is about a constant struggle. There is no absolute good in the real world, so we have to wrangle over it. I like that, personally.

On the other hand, pacifism has a tradition of being used for drama and political change. Martin Luther King used it to stand out from the angry oppressed and prove the righteousness of their claims. I hear Gandhi made waves. And the Squadron Supreme guy Dr. Spectrum turned to pacifism for awhile when he accidentally killed a younger superhero in the original version.

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psychop_rex
2009-04-30 04:05 am UTC (link)

I think this would have been a good deal more powerful if it had been published a few months ago, before the election/inauguration. Don't get me wrong - I'm not one of those people who think that all is suddenly sweetness and light because Obama is in office - the country is still pretty messed up, and our hands still far from clean - but during most of the Bush years, there was a sense of despair and anger amongst a large chunk of the US (and world) populace that this comic would have addressed very well. Now, however, I think we're a bit more optimistic than that. (Of course, this speech might be set back then.)
Personally, while I totally get what Savior 28 is talking about, I don't think giving up violence entirely is necessarily the answer to lasting peace. Violence can be a useful, and sometimes a necessary, tool, and while I thoroughly applaud people like Martin Luther King and Ghandi who used non-violence to win their battles, that is not a tactic that always works - sometimes you HAVE to use violence, or be killed. I think a better solution would be to focus on DEFENSIVE violence instead of offensive - violence when you're defending someone's life and/or property strikes me as a perfectly reasonable tactic. It's not 'dividing things into good guys and bad guys', it's acknowledging the fact that some people cannot be reasoned with, at least in certain situations, and in those situations, a swift punch to the jaw can save lives. Peace means the absence of war, not violence - you can't get rid of violence, you can only avoid it when such a thing is possible and use it morally when it's not. That's what being a superhero is all about, right?

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