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tsuki_the_geek ([info]tsuki_the_geek) wrote in [info]scans_daily,
@ 2009-04-19 21:44:00

Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Entry tags:char: batman/bruce wayne, char: joker, char: robin/red hood/jason todd, publisher: dc comics, title: batman

The History of Jason Todd (Part 5) -- Death & The Return

So... a death and a resurrection? Damn, I should have posted this on Easter!

Here are the links to the previous "History of Jason Todd" posts:

Part 4: http://asylums.insanejournal.com/scans_daily/183159.html
Part 3: http://asylums.insanejournal.com/scans_daily/182791.html
Part 2: http://asylums.insanejournal.com/scans_daily/178502.html
Part 1: http://asylums.insanejournal.com/scans_daily/146730.html

And I know we all hate Jason right now for what's going on in Battle for the Cowl but... well, it's understandable that the kid has violence-against-family issues. As we see here... 

When we last left off, Jason was violent, a jerk, and way more "edgy" than the Robin that most readers were used to. He was definitely a polarizing figure. Then DC did one of their most infamous reader-response events ever: they created a 900-number where comic fans could call in and vote whether Robin would live or die in the next series. The vote went on for 35 hours and it costed 50 cents a call! And the worst part? The vote was VERY close. But "death" won out, and thus Death in the Family was created.

Now, BLASPHEMY ALERT, I kind of hate the entirety of Death in the Family. I just think it's a horribly written book and it makes my brain leak out of my ears if I see too much of it at one sitting. Thus, I'm not posting much of it. Here's what you have to know:

1) Robin/Jason finds out that the mother who he loved and cared for and sacrificed for as she was dying is... GASP! Not his real mother! Clearly confused and upset, Jason sets off to find his real mother (notably without Batman) even though all he has is the woman's temporary location from 15 years ago and her initials. Somehow, though, he narrows it down to only 3 women that he has to find.

2) Batman finds Jason all the way ACROSS THE WORLD and, after lecturing him on running off, agrees to help him find these 3 women. Notably, one of them is Lady Shiva. But no, Jason's mother could not be that cool... Batman/Robin finally find the real mother working as a relief doctor in Africa.

3) Jason's real mother? She's a bitch. And evil. An evil bitch. She's been working with the Joker to undercut her own relief/charity work (what the hell was the Joker doing in Africa anyway Or Iran later for that matter?) and, oh yeah, sells out her own son at the drop of a hat... (and yes, she knows that her son is "Robin, The Boy Wonder!")




(There's a scene in the middle of these two posts where the Joker double crosses Jason's mom and leaves her to die in a bomb explosion w/Jason. Jason dies not because of the crowbar specifically-- he gets RIGHT next to the bomb trying to defuse it and save her. HER. His mom. The woman who was totally fine with the Joker killing her son. Then everything goes BOOM!)


Classic, iconic picture. For an interesting contrast, here's Under the Hood's version of the same scene:



Mask on in this one. Interesting touch...

So, almost 20 years pass and we see memories of Jason here and there-- but mostly he's just used for OMG BAT ANGST! I HAD A SIDEKICK WHO DIED! moments-- until 2006 and Under the Hood. And, oh yeah, stupid Superboy Prime:
















.................
.................
................. 
*CRIES*


Coming Soon:
(Part 6) A look at Jason's short but well-written time as Red Hood, and (Part 7) the very, very few awesome Jason moments in Countdown!



(Post a new comment)


[info]pyrotwilight
2009-04-20 12:37 am UTC (link)
What's the scene with the explanation of how Jason came back from?

How could the sensor's tell either way if they were broken into and not out of? Sounds good but kind of stupid. Especially with how DC has teleporters and Batman knows it.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


(Anonymous)
2009-04-20 02:22 am UTC (link)
Well, the way I figured it was Batman, concerned about grave robbing or some such thing, placed pressure sensors in the coffin that would alert him if the lid was removed. Jason, unfortunately, didn't open the coffin he just dug a hole straight through the center of the lid. The weight of the dirt on the coffin maintains pressure on the sensors thus preventing them from going off. Makes sense, I think.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]parsimonia
2009-04-20 12:39 am UTC (link)
Okay, that's it. In my will I am going to specify that I be buried with a utility belt.

Also, his coffin is pine? Sheesh, you'd think Bruce would've sprung for a hardwood. (And oh god that sentence was not intended to be dirty.)

Looking forward to the Countdown bits!

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]runespoor7
2009-04-20 04:58 am UTC (link)
Fun fact: in the Far East, pine is a symbol of immortality and life renewed. Your dose of irony for today, how would you like it?

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]ladymirth
2009-04-20 01:11 am UTC (link)
*Cries with you*

I LIKED Under the Hood. It made sense that a Jason who had gone through the trauma of being betrayed by his own mother, beaten, blown up and buried only to wake up to a world where Batman had seemingly moved on as though he had never existed, would feel majorly pissed off and betrayed.
I confess, I cheered when he brilliantly conned Black Mask into killing his own men and then he kidnapped the Joker and beat seven kinds of shit out of him!!!♥♥♥

However, it didn't make any sense that he would evolve into a complete sociopathic jerkwad. Betrayed as he felt, he still loved Bruce and idolized Dick and I'm assuming still loved Alfred too, although he was never mentioned. Him becoming a Huntress-like anti-hero I get. Taking over Nightwing's identity and beating up his replacement to a pulp I don't get. Becoming a supervillain who shoots kids and murders people who aren't even criminals, I don't get. At least Cassandra was supposed to have been shot up with psychotropic drugs which apparently gave her a complete and irreversible personality transplant.

Also, from all I've seen from A Death in the Family, Jason got killed for trusting his biological mother and not being reckless and disobeying orders. So what's with all the "I got myself killed by being stupid and over-confident" rubbish that dates all the way back to A Rite of Passage, when Jason's ghost speaks to Tim?

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]brandiweed.livejournal.com
2009-04-20 04:05 am UTC (link)
However, it didn't make any sense that he would evolve into a complete sociopathic jerkwad.

Given the nature of the injuries done to him, has anyone suggested that he might've suffered personality-altering brain trauma? Sure, it's an ass pull, but not a completely unjustifiable one (especially compared to Supermanchild Prime warping reality!).

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]iesika, 2009-04-20 01:19 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]iesika, 2009-04-21 09:10 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]daggerpen, 2009-04-20 02:19 pm UTC

[info]runespoor7
2009-04-20 05:11 am UTC (link)
So what's with all the "I got myself killed by being stupid and over-confident" rubbish

Same brand of meta that makes Didio say that Jason "failed to be a good guy". It's a sick justification that masks the fact that Starlin and DC set Jason up to be killed, which created the dissonance that on one hand it was a character that a lot of people didn't like and on the other he was a fifteen year old boy.

I have no issue with Jason's ghost, in part because Tim way be imagining things.

At least Cassandra was supposed to have been shot up with psychotropic drugs

I personally am waiting for the retcon that will state the same of Jason.

only to wake up to a world where Batman had seemingly moved on as though he had never existed

Poor Jason has no idea just how much that isn't true. *snuggles* Oh Jason, he cares, he really does.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]tsuki_the_geek
2009-04-20 10:19 am UTC (link)
So what's with all the "I got myself killed by being stupid and over-confident" rubbish?

Basically what runespoor7 said. I just assume that no one who rights that actually understood the story (or even read it). Jason died because he TRUSTED HIS MOTHER and then signed his death warrant even more as he tried to BE A HERO and shut off the bomb. *headdesk*

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]sistermagpie, 2009-04-20 11:35 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]tsuki_the_geek, 2009-04-20 11:49 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sistermagpie, 2009-04-20 12:06 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]runespoor7, 2009-04-20 12:52 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sistermagpie, 2009-04-20 01:01 pm UTC

[info]khaosworks
2009-04-20 01:21 am UTC (link)
Agh. I hated this so much, with the power of a million exploding suns. This happened during a period I was staying away from comics due to financial impecuniousness, so I didn't get to read it until a few years after the fact. And it makes no freaking sense.

For one, what event, exactly, was Prime's punch supposed to alter? What chain of alternate events winds up with Jason being buried alive? Death-like coma, really? That's what they're going with?

Next, what kind of half-assed security system is calibrated only to trigger when people break in and not out? Why even calibrate it specifically that way to begin with? A sensor is a sensor - easiest and default setting should be, break the seal, alarms go off immediately.

And how does Jason manage to claw his way out of a hard top coffin when he's apparently suffering from injuries severe enough to send him into a coma to begin with?

The stupid, it burns.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]runespoor7
2009-04-20 07:50 am UTC (link)
The idea was that Batman was supposed to arrive in time to save Jason's life; Jason was never supposed to die. So in this world, he died, and when Superbrat Prime punched time, he came back to life.

I'm not sure what kind of sensor would do that, but I personally just wave it with "Batman designed those sensors". Maybe they take into account pressure, but only when it's applied from outside, or maybe they'd sense if the coffin was removed, or maybe if the lid was lifted, or maybe they simply didn't register the breach because it was from the inside.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]zhinxy
2009-04-20 02:26 am UTC (link)
BLASPHEMY ALERT, I kind of hate the entirety of Death in the Family. I just think it's a horribly written book and it makes my brain leak out of my ears if I see too much of it at one sitting.

IF That be blasphemy, then who wants orthodoxy?

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]icon_uk
2009-04-20 04:14 am UTC (link)
Word!

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]runespoor7
2009-04-20 05:13 am UTC (link)
This.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]kagome654, 2009-04-20 05:15 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]xdoop, 2009-04-20 07:42 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]daggerpen, 2009-04-20 02:21 pm UTC

[info]icon_uk
2009-04-20 04:35 am UTC (link)
"A Death in the Family" is not just a lousy idea, it's a lousy idea told with teeth grinding, bowel knotting, brain achingly levels of badness.

A few of my "favourite" groan inducing moments;

"Oh no, my birth certificate is water damaged... Whatever shall I do? Wherever shall I go? I know! I'll go on a globetrotting trip to find one of the three women that my lousy father, who was clearly unsually well organised with his address/litte black book, because one of them might be my mother." As opposed to

"Oh no, my birth certificate is water damaged... Whatever shall I do? Oh yeah, the Gotham City Hall of Records where people go to get replacement birth certificates all the time, office hours 09:00 to 17:00 five days a week, nominal charge of $20 for a copy."

+ - +

"Oh no, I'm all out of money and so I must resort to suddenly becoming an international atomic weapons dealer." As opposed to

"Oh no, I'm all out of money, I know, let's ROB A BANK, let's ransack some jewels... Let's pull a THEMED CAPER! I haven't done that since about 1974 and those are actually FUN!"

+ - +

"Gasp! Someone has shot this pilot through the head... Based on no evidence whatsoever I shall decide that this is the work of the Joker". As opposed to

"Gasp! Someone has shot this pilot through the head, drawn a big grin on his face in his own blood and left a note pinned to him saying "I just flew in from Gotham City, and boy are MY arm's tired! I wonder who that could be?"

+ - +

"Oh noes... I've just killed Robin in the most unimaginative, dull, unJoker-ish way possible... I must make sure that Batman never finds out that it was me because I am scared of his wrath!" as opposed to;

"Hello? Is that CNN? Joker here! Look, I have Robin the Boy Wonder here, and I'm about to kill him... Oh I dunno, haven't decided... something Jokerish... smother him with a custard pie laced with superglue... Stick the hose from this tank of helium up his ass and turn him into a Macy's Parade balloon... Maybe just dose him with Joker venom, it's an oldie, but a goodie. I just want to be sure that when I actually DO kill my greatest enemies Achilles heel, who I have been trying to kill reguarly since 1940 that the whole world knows about it because what would be the point of . I was going to film it and send it to you, possibly set up a follow up interview... what's your local office's address... Thanks!"

+ - +

"Oh noes... there's dynamite here in the building with me and the door is locked so we can't get out!" as opposed to;

"Oh noes... there's dynamite here in the building with me and the door is locked so we can't get out! Wait, why don't I (or my mother) throw the dynamnite OUTSIDE through one of these windows? That'll sheild us from most of the blast."

Etc etc etc

(Reply to this) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]janegray, 2009-04-20 04:43 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]chengar, 2009-04-20 05:28 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]icon_uk, 2009-04-20 05:52 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]tsuki_the_geek, 2009-04-20 10:23 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]icon_uk, 2009-04-20 10:56 am UTC

[info]janegray
2009-04-20 04:38 am UTC (link)
And I know we all hate Jason right now for what's going on in Battle for the Cowl but

Actually, I don't hate Jason. I hate Tony Daniel, who admitted in an interview that he purposefully made Jason Rape the Dog, because he knew that many readers sympathized with Jason and he wanted them to hate Jason. Nevermind silly things like "previous characterization" (and it's not just Jason: everybody in BFTC is acting horribly OOC).

Frankly, after reading that interview, I've decided to fangirl Jason even more out of sheer spite.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]kagome654, 2009-04-20 05:19 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]runespoor7, 2009-04-20 05:26 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kagome654, 2009-04-20 05:41 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]runespoor7, 2009-04-20 05:43 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lipsofpoison, 2009-04-20 06:32 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kagome654, 2009-04-20 06:36 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lipsofpoison, 2009-04-20 06:40 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lipsofpoison, 2009-04-20 06:23 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]daggerpen, 2009-04-20 02:23 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]chengar, 2009-04-20 09:02 pm UTC

[info]runespoor7
2009-04-20 05:21 am UTC (link)
You know, there's one thing that bothers me about Jason's resurrection. No, it's not Superboy Prime punching time. (I mean, simply resurrecting, especially when you're just a Badass Normal, is going to be weird anyway, so I just file that away as Applied Phlebotinum and am done with it.)

Why don't the DNA/fingerprint tests ring alarms at Oracle's and/or the Batcave? Am I supposed to believe that the security measures concerning Jason were stripped because he was dead? That seems OOC to me, but I guess there's not a lot of other explanations. Anyone has a better one?

(Reply to this) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]icon_uk, 2009-04-20 05:55 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]runespoor7, 2009-04-20 11:06 am UTC

[info]merseybeatler
2009-04-20 06:49 am UTC (link)
I kind of want things to rearrange themselves so that it turns out Lady Shiva IS Jason's biological mom, the lady he found and died with was just crazy, and then he meets up with Cass and they have a good cry together about being annoyingly evil ninja offspring. Or something.

Also, I, too, now want to be buried with a utility belt. :P

(Reply to this) (Thread)

God, that would be awesome... - [info]mysteryfan, 2009-04-20 12:46 pm UTC
Re: God, that would be awesome... - [info]merseybeatler, 2009-04-20 05:10 pm UTC

[info]queen_marshed
2009-04-20 07:03 am UTC (link)
You know Mythbusters proved that it was imposible to claw your way out of a coffin like that? Not that logic really matters in the DCU anyway...

Man, Jason's actually a promising character, but then the editorial just plain out hate him. Makes my inner fan girl really really sad... T_T

(Reply to this) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]tsuki_the_geek, 2009-04-20 10:27 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]queen_marshed, 2009-04-20 10:31 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]daggerpen, 2009-04-20 02:26 pm UTC

[info]thormonger
2009-04-20 08:27 am UTC (link)
So... a death and a resurrection? Damn, I should have posted this on Easter!

Yesterday was Easter for the Orthodox Church, so you did.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]tsuki_the_geek, 2009-04-20 10:41 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]thormonger, 2009-04-20 08:00 pm UTC

[info]sistermagpie
2009-04-20 08:49 am UTC (link)
Okay, so when Jason was coming back I was in denial and didn't read a lot of it, but leaving aside the crap way that he died (see icon_uk posts especially for problems there) and crap way he came back (one more thing I haven't seen added: people are embalmed before they're buried, you know), I'm confused about exactly how he related to everyone since he came back. I mean, I know UtH where he meets Bruce, and I know he beats the crap out of Tim. But was there any sort of actual story of the rest of the family--including Bruce--dealing with this momentous event of the dead brother coming back from the dead?

Because whenever I read stuff with Jason I feel like he's only back in a sort of half-assed way. Characters like Alfred don't seem to know him at all. Dick seems to deal with him as if they have no history at all outside of Jason being a minor villain Dick didn't have much to do with ever.

I know I'm a Bat-family fan so I'm maybe a little biased, but if you bring this guy back from the dead isn't it primarily a family drama here? It seems like they just treated it like a random origin story for an anti-hero/villain that never quite jelled. (The whole "Jason followed Bruce's path" etc.? I just don't buy it. It has no resonance for the actual Jason character at all--same for any dealings with the League of Assassins etc.) So in things like BftC they include Jason as the bad guy because technically he's the third brother, but nobody ever treats him like an actual brother with the history he has.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]tsuki_the_geek, 2009-04-20 10:41 am UTC
yay matching icons. - [info]runespoor7, 2009-04-20 11:05 am UTC
Re: yay matching icons. - [info]sistermagpie, 2009-04-20 11:27 am UTC
Re: yay matching icons. - [info]runespoor7, 2009-04-20 12:59 pm UTC
Re: yay matching icons. - [info]sistermagpie, 2009-04-20 01:18 pm UTC
Re: yay matching icons. - [info]tsuki_the_geek, 2009-04-20 01:52 pm UTC
Re: yay matching icons. - [info]runespoor7, 2009-04-20 02:27 pm UTC
Re: yay matching icons. - [info]tsuki_the_geek, 2009-04-20 11:52 am UTC
Re: yay matching icons. - [info]runespoor7, 2009-04-20 01:04 pm UTC
Re: yay matching icons. - [info]tsuki_the_geek, 2009-04-20 01:54 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sistermagpie, 2009-04-20 11:23 am UTC
Warning: Moderately Incoherent Ramble - [info]mysteryfan, 2009-04-20 12:34 pm UTC
Motto - [info]mysteryfan, 2009-04-20 12:42 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]icon_uk, 2009-04-20 12:58 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sistermagpie, 2009-04-20 01:16 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]runespoor7, 2009-04-21 02:36 pm UTC

[info]mysteryfan
2009-04-20 12:39 pm UTC (link)
Now, BLASPHEMY ALERT, I kind of hate the entirety of Death in the Family. I just think it's a horribly written book and it makes my brain leak out of my ears if I see too much of it at one sitting.
I couldn't even read the scans. Just read your helpful three bulletpoints.

I hate what's happening to Jason at the moment.
Look forward to seeing well-written Jason in part 6.

(Reply to this)


[info]halloweenjack
2009-04-20 01:44 pm UTC (link)
Yeah... you'd have to figure that S-Prime added a little superstrength on top of that resurrection, because even if Bruce didn't spring for a burial vault, there still would have been a grave liner, which would have been enough to stop Jason from digging out, even if he didn't need to breathe. Then again, it would also keep almost all zombie stories from happening.

*The only exception that I know of is the book Pet Sematary, where this is accounted for.

(Reply to this)


[info]daggerpen
2009-04-20 02:15 pm UTC (link)
Oh, I don't hate Jason for what's going on in Battle for the Cowl. I hate Tony Daniels. Jason's blameless.

(Reply to this)


[info]freddylloyd
2009-04-20 04:51 pm UTC (link)
It seems necessary to acknowledge that A Death in the Family would have proceeded exactly the same way except for the final panel had the fans who called in voted the opposite way. The death would simply have been Jason's mother. Furthermore, the Batman editorial team had already decided to remove Jason Todd as Robin since he wasn't working out with readers. He could have survived, but he wouldn't have been Batman's sidekick.

The details of that story are indeed annoyingly shoddy. My personal peeves include how the text tells us, as I recall, that people in Lebanon speak Farsi while the Joker as Iranian ambassador speaks Arabic.

What's more interesting than that story is what the Batman team made of it. Yes, folks got a little sick of Bruce Wayne lamenting his dead son for fifteen years, but that death became a major part of the mythology, affecting every member of the family and others they came across. (Remember when Impulse asks Robin why his extra costume is in the glass case--is it all stinky?)

It could be interesting to think what the alternative would have been if fans had voted the other way. Would Jason have been crippled? Stayed in the Mideast doing charity work? Hunted down diplomat's sons suspected of rape? Turned to a life of crime? Disappeared from continuity like Aunt Harriet until someone had a better idea? We'll never know.

As for Jason's escape from his coffin, again we're looking at an editorial mandate. The editors accepted Judd Winick's proposal that Jason be brought back from the dead. How that was accomplished--with the awkward Hush overlap, Superboy-Prime, the coffin--was secondary to what stories that change could have produced.

In retrospect, that resurrection was probably also tied to the planned death of Dick Grayson in Infinite Crisis, which would have opened up a space in the Batman family for Jason: the new Nightwing. Much of Brothers in Blood makes no sense unless we imagine Jason in Dick's place. (The rest simply makes no sense at all.)

(Reply to this) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]icon_uk, 2009-04-20 06:19 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]freddylloyd, 2009-04-20 08:01 pm UTC

[info]merseybeatler
2009-04-20 05:43 pm UTC (link)
Hate to say it, but does anyone else think of this when they see A Death In The Family?

Image and video hosting by TinyPic

(Reply to this) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]daggerpen, 2009-04-20 07:01 pm UTC


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