Tweak

InsaneJournal

Tweak says, "Babe-raham Lincoln!"

Username: 
Password:    
Remember Me
  • Create Account
  • IJ Login
  • OpenID Login
Search by : 
  • View
    • Create Account
    • IJ Login
    • OpenID Login
  • Journal
    • Post
    • Edit Entries
    • Customize Journal
    • Comment Settings
    • Recent Comments
    • Manage Tags
  • Account
    • Manage Account
    • Viewing Options
    • Manage Profile
    • Manage Notifications
    • Manage Pictures
    • Manage Schools
    • Account Status
  • Friends
    • Edit Friends
    • Edit Custom Groups
    • Friends Filter
    • Nudge Friends
    • Invite
    • Create RSS Feed
  • Asylums
    • Post
    • Asylum Invitations
    • Manage Asylums
    • Create Asylum
  • Site
    • Support
    • Upgrade Account
    • FAQs
    • Search By Location
    • Search By Interest
    • Search Randomly

nevermore999 ([info]nevermore999) wrote in [info]scans_daily,
@ 2009-03-22 19:29:00

Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Entry tags:char: batgirl/cassandra cain, char: batman/bruce wayne, char: robin/red robin/tim drake, char: spoiler/robin/batgirl/steph brown, creator: andersen gabrych, creator: bill willingham, creator: dylan horrocks, creator: geoff johns, creator: pete woods, creator: tom grummett, series: super steph series, title: batgirl, title: detective comics, title: robin, title: teen titans

Super Steph Series pt 11- "From now on, you can call me Robin."
So we enter the era of Robin!Steph! I have mixed feelings about this era. Steph was Robin because she was going to die. Therefore, she was set up to fail. And die. The story of her Robinness was ridiculously contrived and OOC because Willingham can't write any DC characters worth a damn, IMO. BUT, it was also fun. Steph as Robin was good fit, we got a good Detective Comics and "Batgirl and Robin" story out of it.

Then she died. And didn't get a memorial. And the fans protested. And we got her back.

If Stephanie hadn't become Robin, fans wouldn't have noticed how stupid and misogynist and cheapdrama!!!111 her death was, and how badly she was treated as much. And we probably wouldn't have gotten her back as soon as we did. And a lot of fans discovered her because of her becoming Robin, and her death, including me.

So all in all, I'm glad Steph was Robin. Let's look over the six stories where she got to be wonderfully Robin-y, shall we?

There will be some complaining, be warned.


So for background...Tim's dad has forbidden him from being Robin. After this happened, Tim randomly decided not to talk to Steph for three weeks. Yeah, it's Bill Willingham. Anyway, he finally looks her up jogging around the school track on a Saturday like a good little crimefighter. There's some making out and then...



DUNDUNDUN! Oh, and her leg was broken before. Now it's not. Because like I said, Tim hasn't talked to her in THREE months. WTF, Tim, WTF.

Anyway, Stephanie decides to stalk  check in on Tim. She figures it's a good idea since he didn't call her for THREE MONTHS...okay, I'll stop that. Anyway, just as she arrives, she sees him liplocking with Darla Aquista, this random girl who's dad's in the mafia. Really, Darla just randomly decided to do that because of her raging carnal desire towards Tim, and he's all suprised. OMG Steph runs off in a huff, just as Tim pushes Darla away and is like "I HAS A GIRLFRIEND WHO I NEVER CALL" and Darla is all "YER LYING YOU JUST DON'T LIKE ME!" and oh, the TEEN DRAMA.

Anyway, in Stephanie's mind, the best way to get back at Tim for this is to SHUN him and TAKE HIS JOB, which he gave up willingly. Which doesn't make sense, because last time Steph thought Tim was cheating her, she actually let him know she's angry. Steph's not the type to suffer in silence. She lets you know she's mad. And then stalks you.

But, Willingham, right?

So, Steph decides to break into the Batcave.

There are a lot of things wrong with this. First, Batman mentions he has lethal weapons in the Batcave. Unless that was a joke? I don't know. Second, that Stephanie can break into the Batcave. Isn't that like supposed to be really, really hard? Nightwing once said he couldn't break in there...and Steph is not anywhere near Dick's skill level.



Also, Steph made this costume herself and it looks horrible. Which makes no sense, since Steph also made her Spoiler costume herself, and that thing in EXTREMELY practical and well made. While this has a belly shirt. But, y'know, teen gurl, lol, I guess?



Wow, that was abrupt. No way will this be a train wreck! Alfred takes Batman and asks him if he has lost what is left of his mind.



Wow, nice save there, Bruce. Very subtle. So get this straight. Bruce is using Steph to make Tim JEALOUS.This is a young woman, who already has a LOT of issues with father figures, who is already a bit screwed up in the head, who places her complete trust in him, and he is using her to lure Tim  back into an extremely dangerous profession which he WILLINGLY quit, and which his REAL father is extremely against?

He doesn't really believe in her and he's practically SETTING HER UP TO FAIL.

That. Is. So. Amazing.

Yeah, I'm going to be happy place now.




Also an insane amount of time passes where Steph doesn't call Tim, and he doesn't think anything's wrong enough to go check it out. Tim Drake, supposedly loving boyfriend and completely paranoid. The Tim I subscribe to (Dixon's Tim) would panic after TWO weeks of Steph avoiding him, enough to go to her house and sit on the rooftop until she DOES come back, so he can make sure she's okay. He's just like that.

And Tim's Dad did let him out of the house, by the way, so he would be completely capable of doing that.



Batman's "you hit like a girl" is a transparent motivational tactic my dad has used on me when I practice martial arts with him. I saw through it when I was SIX, so I have no idea why it's supposed to work on Steph.  Also, it's stupid and sexist as a motivational tactic. And you think Bruce would have learned from Jason not to compare his new recruits to their predecessors.And really, how is Steph expected to handstand like Tim with those giant boobs weighing her down? Those things are like watermelons!

On a happy note, Batman in the T shirt with a cowl is hilarious.

And so...



Whoo! Good times! Or not!

Wow, I did a lot of complaining. I do actually like Steph as Robin.There's just a lot of things about this issue that annoyed me. Next issue the review will be decidedly more positive, since that one was pretty awesome.

But, before we get to that, lets tell the stories that apparently happened between this issue of Robin and next. Starting with the totally awesome Batgirl and Robin story from Batgirl #53:

Cass is in trouble from thugs of the Penguin who have this special new gun...with giant explosive bullets even she has trouble dodging. Batman calls Robin in to aid Cass.



Steph to the rescue!

Basically, the Penguin is selling these new illegal guns, and Steph and Cass gotta catch 'em. One of the guys who works for him has a seven year old daughter. She will be important later.



I love how Cass is going all "d'awww" at Steph's happy, just like I am.

Anyway, the guy who works for Penguin asks his daughter to deliver something for him. Then Steph and Cass nab him.



Note Steph's issues with lousy fathers. And yeah, Roy just sent his little daughter to deliver the gun. The criminals react to a kid demanding payment for a gun about as well as you'd expect, but Steph and cass pop in in time to save her. But the little girl is scared...



Love the little girl with that huge gun. And how Steph comforts her.

But Penguin isn't going to get the same treatment from Steph...





Steph got ticked in this scene, but Cass was able to calm her down, which is why I don't get the comparisons between her and Jason. Yeah, she got angry, but she usually made good points when she did, and she was more readily calmed than Jason. Anyway, that's some Steph ownage for ya.



Awww. I really liked this story, I think it highlighted a major reason why Steph chose to be a superhero- she wants to protect other kids from getting hurt like she did, from having to live lives full of crime and bad parenting. She wants Gotham to be safe for kids like that little girl.

Also, Batgirl and Robin ftw.

Now, onto Detective Comics #796. Pete Woods draws Steph again and is still awesome! And Steph is cool and saves Batman!



Oh, Batman. Love Steph's unisex costume, and the little legbands calling back to her Spoiler costume.

Zsasz is on the loos. Steph asks to come along just to investigate where he is, and Bats agrees to let her down on the subway with him, but he will send her him immediately afterward. He also suits her up in a super reinforced costume.



Behold Steph's mad detective skillz! And how Batman is nice and puts a hand on her shoulder! That's Zsasz vision on the last panel there.

Zsasz grabs Steph when Bats is not looking.



But his knife cannot slice her super tough cape and Steph is no victim! Um, usually.

Zsasz throws Steph into a wall, then Batman comes in to save her,but gets beaten up a bit.




Steph rox. She will KRUNCH your nose if you screw with her mentor on her watch.


Batman takes Zsasz down from behind.



As many pointed out at the old SD, cartilage doesn't work that way. At all. But Batman is not that much of a dick here, surprisingly. Too bad he fires her later.

Now we go to Steph's breif appearance in Teen Titans:







You know, Conner, if you don't want someone to be rude to you, you probably shouldn't greet them "Who the hell are you?" and accuse them of playing "little miss dress up" and not act like a condescending asshole. I know you are totally in love with Tim and mad he's abandoned you, but it's not okay to take out those feelings on his girlfriend and then get pissy when she decides she doesn't want to take that crap. Just saying.



Big Daddy Bat doesn't like pretty clones screwing with his Robins.



Nice, Conner. Anyway, he goes after Tim and Tim is all "she's a strong young woman and a fine replacement" which is nice, if at odds with the actual story in Robin, where by the time Tim even finds out Steph is Robin, she's about to be fired.  Also at odds is Tim calling Conner all happy when he's back to being Robin, when realistically he should be devastated, as he would either be a. embroiled in a gang war or b. In mourning, because his girlfriend and a ton of other people are dead. But, onto the rest of our tale.

First, a funny scene between Bats and Steph:



Yay snarky Steph! Yay, Batman with a sense of humor.

Anyway, the Dynamic Duo is faced with a villianess called Tiger Moth, who scrambles their senses. Steph innovates on the fly! Literally!




Anyway, Bats figures out the reason Tiger Moth was able to scramble him and Steph is because of tech supplied to her by the local mob boss, who's actually working for Johnny Warlock, a man with a grudge against Tim, who'd also hired an assassin called Scarab to kill Robin. She's been tracking down possible Robin candidates through facial recognition sofware where she found eleven boys in Gotham that share Tim's lower jaw structure, as well as height weight and skin tone.

Meanwhile, Darla is gushing over Tim in a way that makes him seem Mary Sue-ish, which saddens my Tim loving heart. Luckily, Benard is here to interrupt that dreck.



It's scary how close he is to the truth.



"I'm just glad to see a girl finally got the job."

"Don't get used to her, she's doomed."

Think Willingham put that in on purpose? Since he's stated publicly he didn't want Steph to die. Pretty sly.

And Tim's just angry because it's the truth.

Anyway, Tim calls Steph, wanting to talk about how she totally just replaced him and didn't even bother to tell him, and Steph is prepared to go off and see him (in costume, just so she can rub it in!) but...



Bats is asking Cass to watch out for Tim, BTW.



Scarab goes to kill another boy who looks like Tim, but finds Steph waiting instead.



Oh Steph. You and yer snark.

Scarab kicks Steph and Bats through a window, but Steph gets back up through a grappling hook trick. Bats tells Steph to watch out.



\

"You're all wrong. You're not Robin, you're a woman."

It's like Scarab is DC editorial and Steph is struggling valiantly against her! I do adore how she still threatens to kick the Scarab's ass even though the Scarab is choking her and just totally KO'd Batman. But she keeps trying! She IS Robin, dammit! Go, Steph!

Anyway, the Scarab lets Steph go, and Steph calls for Batman, who's hanging unconcious on a grappling line I guess he fired from his belt while going out the window.



Smart thinking, Steph!

Batman is all "good girl" like Steph is a dog or something and off to Scarab's place...

Anyway, Bats goes in to fight Scarab, telling Steph to stay in the van plane. It doesn't go well.



"Oh, boy, she's kicking my ass. Oh, god, the pain! I'm totally losing here. I'm bleeding. No, stay in the plane, Steph. Oh, god, cute bombs! How am I going to survive this? Who will help me? No, not you, Steph, stay in the plane. AGH! She's blinded me! I'm blind! So close to dying here! WAIT STEPH WHY ARE YOU LEAVING THE PLANE?"

Yeah, note to Bats, if you don't want someone to come help you, don't describe the injuries you're suffering in excruciating detail. In fact, why on earth are you talking to Steph while fighting at all? Isn't that distracting? THAT'S WHY YOU ARE LOSING BATS!

Though it amuses me he noted the bombs cuteness. "Those bombs are adorable!"

Anyway, just as Steph comes to save the day...or not  , Bats explodes Scarabs armor!



So, apparently Scarab leaves Steph tied on the roof and steals the Batplane because "Robin failed to engage the active defenses before leaving her post" which seems weird, I mean, all she had to do was push a button, I'm pretty sure she would remember that, presuming Bats had trained her TO ALWAYS DO THAT. Which he probably didn't.

Anyway, rather than fire her right away, Bruce decides to prolong the agony and have her sit at home three weeks while he gets his sight back, worrying. That seems unnecessary, and therein lies the real Batdickery.



It really isn't your fault he got blinded, considering that happened before you came to the "rescue", Steph.



Aaaand there we have it. Then War Games happened. But let's pretend it didn't.

Except I find it amazing that Bruce REALLY THOUGHT Steph would give up. She didn't when he told her not to be Spoiler, like, a bajillion times. He could have put a tail on her like he did with Jason. Cass would have been all over it. In fact, why not just plain call Cass and be like "Hey, I just fired your friend, wanna comfort her and talk her out of doing anything stupid?"

But no. That would have required giving a crap about Steph.

(And according to Batgirl #54 he didn't even BOTHER to inform Cass, and I assume, anyone else, Steph had been fired.)

He's the adult here. He's the one who is responsible for how his little scheme to make Tim jealous affects her.

But, anyway. It was fun while Steph was Robin, despite the frusturating way it came about. She was truly a hero in training. It was fun to see her outthink her opponents and be enthusiastic about the job. If it hadn't been editorially mandated, Willingham has stated he would have gone longer with it, so I imagine it would have been less abrupt if he'd had as long as he wanted. Steph failing, regardless of whether it was in character, was a plot device so she could die. If they'd wanted her to stay as Robin, they would have had her succeed. It's really that simple.

Our last post for the super Steph Series will be Steph's return arc! Actually, I might also post some nice Steph Showcase stories I was sent recently after THAT post. So two more, tops. Hope you enjoyed!



(Post a new comment)


[info]merseybeatler
2009-03-22 07:15 pm UTC (link)
Bruce needs a serious spanking. And Steph needs a hug. Although I'm afraid her hair is really, really distracting!

Looking forward to seeing your cover of her return. I've not actually read any of that segment.


ALSO: A completely random idea. Y'know those weird Facebook things where you tag your friends according to which image matches their personality ('tag my pals' or something corny like that)? There should be a Gotham or DCAU version.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]scottyquick
2009-03-22 07:16 pm UTC (link)
Spider-Girl has "Facegroup" !

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]toasty_fresh
2009-03-22 07:21 pm UTC (link)
I always have a hard time reading these scans because Steph as Robin should have been so awesome, but it wasn't. It was so the antithesis of awesome. I mean, there were some moments that were fun, but god, the entire thing just pissed me off. Why not staple a sign to Steph's forehead that says "plot device" while they're at it?

Also, the fact that she's so curvy really annoys me. It would be practically impossible for someone like Steph, who works out that much and probably has been athletic for most of her teen years, to have curves like the ghetto-booty and watermelons she has here . . .

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]lightbrigade
2009-03-22 07:31 pm UTC (link)
Hmmm. I agree with you, Steph shouldn't be this figure. But maybe Steph just kept hers after having a kid?

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)


[info]toasty_fresh
2009-03-22 08:59 pm UTC (link)
Sure, you gain weight and your body changes shape when you're preggers, but you don't go from normal high school girl to Pam Anderson in my experience. A bit of weight gain would have been nicely realistic, yeah, but imo what's going on here is way too much . . .

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)


[info]perletwo
2009-03-22 10:10 pm UTC (link)
Could we blame it on kevlar padding in the tunic?

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)


[info]bariman1987
2009-03-22 10:33 pm UTC (link)
Batman wore the bright yellow bat on his chest to draw attention to it instead of his face, because he had heavy armor on his chest and bullets would do less harm. One could assume that Steph put heavy armor on her chest as well, which had the effect of making her boobs look bigger, drawing attention to them. Whether it was to draw fire or Steph was just showing off, I don't know. Red-breasted Robin indeed.</strike>

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)


[info]lieut_kettch
2009-03-22 11:57 pm UTC (link)
Agreed. Some rules in women's amateur boxing require the use of chest protectors (to prevent Sentry-style titty punches) with all the fighters looking like they have double D's as a result.

Or it could be that breast enlargement is a direct result of making out with Tim Drake. Cases in point: Stephanie Brown, Darla Aquista a.k.a. Laura Fell, and Jubilation Lee.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)


[info]bariman1987
2009-03-23 01:16 am UTC (link)
Breast-enlarging make-outs would be a fantastic superpower. And that would solve Tim's family's "money problems" to boot if he decided to charge for it. I wonder if he'd need FDA approval?

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)


[info]lieut_kettch
2009-03-23 01:52 pm UTC (link)
And now I'm envisioning a Good Luck Chuck-style fic where flat-chested superheroines from all over the DCU and Marvel U converge upon Tim Drake and his magical breast-enlarging lips. Or maybe it's his tongue.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]alessandra_lee
2009-03-23 03:31 am UTC (link)
Or it could be that breast enlargement is a direct result of making out with Tim Drake.

That made me laugh hysterically. An internets for you.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]merseybeatler
2009-03-22 08:44 pm UTC (link)
Agreed. The big red melons dangling over her sixpack are kind of hilarious.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

I need to grab a Steph icon
[info]scottyquick
2009-03-22 07:22 pm UTC (link)
Guh, I hate hate hate Damion Scott's art most of the time. Early issues of Batgirl were acceptable, but I just find it so ugly. I know it's technically brilliant and that he's a creative genius and all that, but it's not fun to look at.

Was there ever an issue of Batgirl that wasn't great? Aside from the first issue of the Connor/Cass teamup, that was randomly bad.

Hmmm, where's Gabrych gone? He was all up in the Batbooks and then whambamthankyouma'amBAI.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]bluefall
2009-03-22 07:41 pm UTC (link)
Eh, a lot of the Horrocks issues bugged me. Mostly for Babs' sake, but I never thought his Cass was all that ideal either.

Damion Scott... it's very kinetic work, which is good for a title like Batgirl, but I'd much rather have, say, McDaniel, who's equally kinetic but also, y'know, looks good. I think he's also one of those guys where the colorist can make a huge difference, and he wasn't getting the redemption from that quarter that he could have been.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)


[info]perletwo
2009-03-22 08:55 pm UTC (link)
I think he's also one of those guys where the colorist can make a huge difference, and he wasn't getting the redemption from that quarter that he could have been.

See also: the Raven miniseries he drew. I have my own issues with his bowling-ball heads and Mickey Mouse fingers, but the coloring on that mini was so muddy I could barely make out what he'd drawn. I noticed flipping through the trade paperback the other day at the bookstore that they've recolored it more like these pages, and it's a huge improvement. (I still don't like it exactly, but at least I can follow it now.)

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]scottyquick
2009-03-22 09:01 pm UTC (link)
Why, what didn't you like about the Horrocks stuff?

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)


[info]bluefall
2009-03-22 10:20 pm UTC (link)
A lot, but it's pretty easy to exemplify the various grating threads with one single minor plot point that consolidates and encapsulates the entirety of his fail-y tendencies:

He had Babs. Make Cass. Wear a bikini.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)


[info]sailorlibra
2009-03-22 10:27 pm UTC (link)
Heh. I read that issue. It was my first and last Batgirl issue, so you have some reason to hate the scene.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]ashez2ashes
2009-03-22 08:11 pm UTC (link)
Steph would have been better off with someone else as her mentor... *sigh* It's too bad Ted Kord's dead, I always thought he'd be a fun mentor. They're both gymnists right? Heh, she could have called herself Lady Bug! lol

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]bariman1987
2009-03-22 08:47 pm UTC (link)
Eggplant Beetle perhaps? I've actually seen fanart and a couple fics.

Now with correct icon.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]gwalla.livejournal.com
2009-03-22 08:53 pm UTC (link)
Huntess. They both would've hated the idea. It would have been great.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]nevermore999
2009-03-22 08:57 pm UTC (link)
Of course, Black Canary was always a good choice too. It should've gone further than it did. : (

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)


[info]ashez2ashes
2009-03-22 09:01 pm UTC (link)
I dunno, I think her being trained by Black Canary would have ended randomly anyways due to DC always wanting Dinah to go off somewhere with Ollie.

Its too bad she couldn't have been a junior BoP for longer... I wonder how she and Kate Spencer would have interacted?

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]bariman1987
2009-03-22 10:35 pm UTC (link)
Eggplant Canary! With fishnets. Because they're important!

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]tanetris
2009-03-22 08:30 pm UTC (link)
"we may have to do something about your hair"

That's.... An interesting direction to go with, Bruce. Makes me wonder if he has his own special formula of Bathairspray, and how many cans Steph must have on her (is that what the pouches on the legbands are for?)

Super Steph Series ending? Noooooooooo! It has been informative and entertaining!

Can we have a Super Cass Series after?

(Reply to this)


[info]sailorlibra
2009-03-22 09:05 pm UTC (link)
It's kinda of annoying that Bruce forgives Steph for almost killing a guy and then fires her for trying to save his life. A spot of inconsistency there.

Also, Detective Comics 796 was the only Steph story I'd read before your posts. I loved the story, but more for what it revealed about Bruce than what it said about Steph. I did, however, leave the story with the feeling that Steph was competent and that she was just the same as any other Robin. I suppose things just went downhill from there. :[

(Reply to this)

Warning: this comment contains a rant
[info]parsimonia
2009-03-22 09:06 pm UTC (link)
"You're on probation, and as long as that's in effect, you don't learn any of the big secrets."
Check RED FLAG!
"And the first time you disobey my orders--even in a minor way--is the precise moment you're out. No second chances."
Double check BIG HUGE FUCKING RED FLAG!

Ohhhhhh the manipulative horribleness. Taking on a real partner-apprentice in crime-fighting, the way a Robin is expected to be to Batman, should never, ever, be a light matter. It's so fucked-up and wrong that Batman would be willing to jerk her around like this, and give her such unreasonable standards to which he never would've held Dick or Tim, or even Jason.

This isn't just an injustice to Steph, it's an injustice to Bruce's character as well. Because no way is he dense enough to not realize that taking on someone as Robin, even she's a she, is going to going to put the two of them in an intense, if sometimes emotionally subdued, interdependent working relationship. The amount trust that can be abused here is huge, but the lack of trust this Batman shows Stephanie is what really makes me sick.

He didn't trust her enough to tell her about Matches Malone (and that lack of information is what made the War Games gang war doomed to failure from the start), which means he didn't trust her enough to really be Robin. Which means he was, as you say, setting her up for failure from the start. Which makes Batman a horrible, horrible person. And while Batman may be emotionally fucked up in many, many ways, my Batman is not that horrible.

Also, the "we may have to do something with your hair" comes off as kinda creepy. What? A pony-tail's too practical? Oh, no, wait, I get it. Alfred just cut him off before he was able to finish:
"And we may have something to do about your hair. Here's some black hair dye."

If only she'd kept up the black-haired/blue-eyed tradition, Batman would've treated her right!

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Warning: this comment contains a rant
[info]sailorlibra
2009-03-22 09:22 pm UTC (link)
Gah, there needs to be some sort of petition we can sign to protest Bruce-as-an-ass. He doesn't have to be Mr. Rainbows, but there needs to be limits on his behavior. If he was really as much of a dick as he appears sometimes, no one would like him. And yet they do.

From now on, only Paul Dini is allowed to write Bruce. (Okay, and a few others who have written a reasonably non-asshatty Bats.)

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: Warning: this comment contains a rant
[info]mysteryfan
2009-03-22 09:36 pm UTC (link)
This isn't just an injustice to Steph, it's an injustice to Bruce's character as well.

Motto. To infinity.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: Warning: this comment contains a rant
[info]merseybeatler
2009-03-22 09:40 pm UTC (link)
Bravo. Having your hero as an emotionally troubled, even stunted, character is great. Having your hero as a complete and utter fuckbucket to the poiint that his fans begin to hate him?

You're DOING IT WRONG.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

Re: Warning: this comment contains a rant
[info]mysteryfan
2009-03-22 10:38 pm UTC (link)
Bravo. Having your hero as an emotionally troubled, even stunted, character is great. Having your hero as a complete and utter fuckbucket to the poiint that his fans begin to hate him?

You're DOING IT WRONG.


:) Well put!

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: Warning: this comment contains a rant
[info]scottyquick
2009-03-22 10:23 pm UTC (link)
I <3 you so much, Parsimonia.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: Warning: this comment contains a rant
[info]mysteryfan
2009-03-22 11:32 pm UTC (link)
And while Batman may be emotionally fucked up in many, many ways, my Batman is not that horrible.

Just had to come back, one more time, to tell you I completely and totally agree.

I hate stories where he's written like this. Hate.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]pyrotwilight
2009-03-22 10:09 pm UTC (link)
In the Teen Titans bit I could've swore that Kon said

"Not until you tell me what's going on. I didn't see Robin shower at Titans Tower today."

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]bariman1987
2009-03-23 01:10 am UTC (link)
Group shower time is one of the big bonding activities at Titans Tower. Missing it hurts team morale and cohesion.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]volksjager
2009-03-22 10:14 pm UTC (link)
I would say not giving THIS Robin more of a chance was the biggest fuck up DC has made recently. Wasn't GirlRobins outfit in memorial glass when the Legion found the Batcave in the future ???

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]woogledesigns
2009-03-23 10:41 am UTC (link)
Was also drawn into the BatCave in the future/visions of the batcave by Tony Daniel in the Grant Morrison run.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

This icon is getting a workout today
[info]unknownscribler
2009-03-22 10:48 pm UTC (link)
Honestly it's shit like this that makes me hope they don't bring Bruce back for a long long time.

(Reply to this)


[info]psychop_rex
2009-03-23 03:31 am UTC (link)
Personally, I think that Bruce's dickery is not so much in firing Steph - he did, after all, say right at the beginning that 'if you disobey orders during probation, you're out.' Sure, one could argue that he's being way too restrictive in his standards, but he IS just going on what he said. He even tries to be nice about it - well, nice for him - with the 'there's no shame in that' comment. No no, what is dickish about his behavior is that he doesn't just ban her from being Robin - which is, after all, his prerogative; he can fire his sidekick if he wants to - it's his blanket condemnation of ANY other superheroic roles for her. What does he mean, she can't be Spoiler anymore? Who the hell gave him that authority over her life? It's her role, she created it, she made her own costume and everything, she's been training her ass off, integrating herself into the crimefighting community, doing her absolute best - and all of a sudden, it's 'no, screw all that, I'm the Batman, this is MY town, and you're not going to fight crime without my approval'? I mean, good grief, what a jerk!

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]bluefall
2009-03-23 09:50 am UTC (link)
The thing about that, is that every single other Robin has had at least one story where Bruce is like "rar stay put I do this on my own if you can't do as I say you're fired" story. Dick had approximately two point one billion of em. I think even Babs had one, though I might be making that up. The thing is, though, every single other time we've been told that story, Bruce is wrong. He gets in over his head, the junior partner who he told to keep out of it swoops in anyway, and said partner's intervention is essential to saving the day and quite possibly Bruce's life. The purpose of the story is to demonstrate the worthiness of the junior partner to be Bruce's partner and the need of Bruce to have a partner. "Disobey me and you're fired" is horse shit, Robins disobey his ass all the time. "Disobey me, fail to pull it off, and you're fired," would be the more accurate take. Which is still theoretically fair on Bruce's part, right? (Assuming he hadn't clearly, blatantly set her *up* to fail in the first place, of course.)

But it's one hell of a condemnation of the creative staff. Because not only is Steph not that incompetent, that is not how Robins work. The "Robin busts in on Batman's go-it-alone in order to save his life" story does not play out that way, never has. Twelve-year-old noob kids who've never punched a bad guy in their lives get to pull the rescue off when they're Robin, that is the whole point of Robin. Hell, even Carrie got to save Bruce's life the first time she interfered with him. And when Frank Whorin' Miller is doing better by his female characters than you....

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)


[info]sistermagpie
2009-03-23 11:10 am UTC (link)
My problem with Bruce isn't him firing her over this incident, it's the whole weird set up of his use of Robin. It seems to be using Steph (to manipulate Tim?) and frankly disrespectful to Robin the position.

Robins disobey sometimes. It's part of their job. As Dick says to Tim once, Robin needs to anticipate Batman's orders, which means he has to know what to do on his own, and that means sometimes he's going to have to choose to do what s/he thinks is right or go with Bruce's last order. And even if s/he's wrong in a particular instance, s/he needs to be able to make that choice sometimes. Bruce doesn't train sidekicks, he trains independent superheroes capable of leading other teams into dangerous situation before they're old enough to buy liquor. Sometimes Robin gets new information that overrides the order, or can see that Bruce is not giving good orders. Despite the shortpants, Robin is not a position without respect.

I have no trouble with this instance being different because I think it is. Stephanie is, imo, being written here as somebody who isn't a good fit for the job tempermentally in ways that Tim, Dick and JasonI aren't written in stories where they disobey an order. I don't have a problem with Batman rejecting somebody for the position, especially since Jason.

But my problem is Batman seems to already know perfectly well why she's not right for the job and is just using her and the role of Robin for some weird mindgame of his own with Tim. Which imo seems to be the way Steph so often gets treated by Bruce. Like, it's not like he gives her some reason why he thinks she shouldn't be Spoiler, he just continues to make it about "because I say so" which is guaranteed to make her continue--almost as if he wants her to do that. And he does like using her in the ways he thinks she's useful. It's just sees more like a tool for him where Tim and Dick are more on his level. So much weirdly wrong in the Batman/Spoiler relationship (another reason I hated the retcon of Barbara's story to try to replay it).

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)


[info]mysteryfan
2009-03-23 12:22 pm UTC (link)
I have no trouble with this instance being different because I think it is. Stephanie is, imo, being written here as somebody who isn't a good fit for the job tempermentally in ways that Tim, Dick and JasonI aren't written in stories where they disobey an order.

Yes, This. Absolutely. Yes. And all the rest.

So crazy. And one side effect of this is that I've noticed that some fans start to think that it's a character flaw on Steph's part, or maybe due to her background, or social class. Or because she's female, or was older when she took the job. They look for reasons; the reason is because she was written that way. So she could be set up.

But my problem is Batman seems to already know perfectly well why she's not right for the job and is just using her and the role of Robin for some weird mindgame of his own with Tim. Which imo seems to be the way Steph so often gets treated by Bruce.

I know. And I kind of think it makes Steph fans mad and Bruce fans mad. And the Steph and Bruce fans mad. It's disrespectful to both characters, and, as you say, to the idea and character of every Robin.

(another reason I hated the retcon of Barbara's story to try to replay it)

If you have the time, could you elaborate? I'm not sure what you're referring to. (If it's Barbara and Spoiler story, it'll be because I haven't read it anyway, or do you mean the retcon of Barbara herself, which I certainly hate.)

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)


[info]sistermagpie
2009-03-23 03:39 pm UTC (link)
They look for reasons; the reason is because she was written that way. So she could be set up.

Right--and within canon it's written into her character just as Tim's obsessiveness and detective skills are part of his. And that in itself isn't a problem for me because every character should be written with strengths and weaknesses, and every personality needs to have A,B and C rather than X,Y and Z. It's not just that she disobeys here, imo, it's how and why she does that seem like a valid thing to flunk her out of a training program. I think it tests more than whether or not she'll follow an order on probation when he said he'd fire her if she didn't.

I think the unfairness comes in because male characters are more likely to have a male writer want them to be succeed at everything. I've seen how sensitive many readers get over heroes not being competent--Dick, especially, gets trashed (or his writers do) when he fails--maybe that's why they want to dismiss Spoiler.

For instance, for me the way it works within the world is this: Bruce picks up Dick. He gets the idea to train him as a partner. By a combination of personality and background, Dick takes to this life well. Then Dick grows up or gets fired and Bruce grabs some other kid off the street. But this kid doesn't have Dick's raw materials. Plus Bruce and JasonII are a lot alike and their personalities have a totally different effect on each other than Bruce/Dick. Before Jason died it seemed like they were saying that this kid really didn't have the right temperment for the job either.

DitF didn't allow his death to come out of that (as I think it should have), but I still felt like that was the idea. Afterwards Bruce and Dick even have that fight where Bruce tries to say it was all about the training and Dick argues (sounding like he's wanted to say it for a while imo) that not many people have the raw materials to start with and Bruce should have seen Jason didn't.

So then Tim shows up and Bruce is reluctant but Tim also has a temperment that takes to this so it works. So in my mind Stephanie is more like Jason--just with totally different issues. I can understand why she doesn't get into the program and given the history I can understand Bruce being stubborn and knee-jerk about it if she hits his Jason buttons.

Only they *don't* have Bruce acting responsibly with Steph at all. They have him give her mixed messages and play his mindgames that come across differently to her (a normal person) than they do with somebody like Tim. It makes it so you can't really defend him by saying he learned a hard lesson with Jason because he's even more irresponsible here, trying to have it both ways, use her when he wants without having to give her anything in return, kind of keep her in the dark about herself.

Meanwhile, Jason's gotten writers who don't stick to his flaws. Sure he can still be violent and badass, but he's no longer a danger to himself and others unintentionally.

If you have the time, could you elaborate? I'm not sure what you're referring to.

I meant the retcon of Barbara into a near-adolescent trying to wrestle respect from Bruce, the man in authority, to get his approval to be a crime-fighter. There's nothing wrong with Steph being a teenager with father issues who projects some of them on Bruce (the boys are that too), but Barbara was originally more Bruce's equal and wasn't about that kind of defiance. She didn't have to always defy Bruce because he didn't intimidate her. She wasn't all about not caring what Bruce thought because she did admire him for what he did--she just admired him as one adult to another.

In the re-write it almost seems like now the writer's can only conceive of one way for a girl superhero to be: a young girl mouthing off to an older man. And then Batman has to spout stuff that sounds completely unnatural to him as a guy who grew up in a post-feminism world. As if you can only write a feminist character by having a bunch of big, older men tell a young girl she can't do stuff and have her do it anyway. Original Barbara had more important things to do in her mind.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)


[info]mysteryfan
2009-03-23 04:04 pm UTC (link)
I'm running out the door, and I do want to come back and more carefully absorb the first part of your comment - very, very interesting, excellent points.

As for the Barbara retcon, I could not possibly agree with you more. Perfectly said!

She wasn't all about not caring what Bruce thought because she did admire him for what he did--she just admired him as one adult to another.

Motto, motto, motto. I think they took away soooooo much of her power when they retconned younger that it just hurts. What's an easy way to depower an adult woman? Make her a child. It's really--maybe nobody else feels this way--but I believe it was a terribly sexist thing to do to her character and crueler to her than TKJ.

In the re-write it almost seems like now the writer's can only conceive of one way for a girl superhero to be: a young girl mouthing off to an older man. And then Batman has to spout stuff that sounds completely unnatural to him as a guy who grew up in a post-feminism world. As if you can only write a feminist character by having a bunch of big, older men tell a young girl she can't do stuff and have her do it anyway. Original Barbara had more important things to do in her mind.

Yes! I love that paragraph so much. That's exactly why it bothers me. And it also implies that there is only one kind of strong female character. Just one. An extension of 'all women are alike'. Yep. And here's the formula you use to write them.

Original Barbara had more important things to do in her mind.
Yes:)!!!

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]mysteryfan
2009-03-24 08:13 am UTC (link)
Right--and within canon it's written into her character just as Tim's obsessiveness and detective skills are part of his. And that in itself isn't a problem for me because every character should be written with strengths and weaknesses

So I think you're saying that it's not wrong that Steph has flaws, just as Bruce, Jason and Tim do (Dick, too, but I can't think of any except the ones that involve being too nice, too trusting, too willing to support, too loyal, too something something;) If so, I would agree. I think my biggest problem in most stories that involve Bruce and Steph is how Bruce treats her. Very, very interesting thoughts on how all of the characters' personalities vary.

DitF didn't allow his death to come out of that (as I think it should have)
Wow. That would have been so, so interesting.

So then Tim shows up and Bruce is reluctant but Tim also has a temperment that takes to this so it works. So in my mind Stephanie is more like Jason--just with totally different issues. I can understand why she doesn't get into the program and given the history I can understand Bruce being stubborn and knee-jerk about it if she hits his Jason buttons.
Only they *don't* have Bruce acting responsibly with Steph at all. They have him give her mixed messages and play his mindgames that come across differently to her (a normal person) than they do with somebody like Tim. It makes it so you can't really defend him by saying he learned a hard lesson with Jason because he's even more irresponsible here, trying to have it both ways, use her when he wants without having to give her anything in return, kind of keep her in the dark about herself.


That's fascinating.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)


[info]sistermagpie
2009-03-24 02:29 pm UTC (link)
So I think you're saying that it's not wrong that Steph has flaws

Pretty much. Unfortunately for her, Steph's flaws cut to her fundamental abilities to operate on the level of somebody like Tim as a superhero. That gives her very different conflicts than, say, Tim's struggle about becoming too batty, or Dick's conflict about trying to be Bruce.

If Tim and Steph had stayed adolescent forever (a possibility in comics!) the day of reckoning could have been put off, but with Tim moving up they kind of pushed the issue. Sometimes I think of it as if, like, Tim and Steph had met auditioning for American Idol. Tim might say he doesn't want to be a singer professionally, is only doing it for whatever reason. But the second he opens his mouth Simon Cowell (Bruce) recognizes him as a professional and it's welcome to Hollywood. Tim was never really going to quit. Steph might seem the more enthusiastic of the two and she's eager to learn and work, but she still gets the "You will never have a singing career. Go home."

I admit to me what I see as her conflict makes her compelling. There's more to a character than how well they can operate like Tim. If she's happy operating on the level she's at, she can own that. Or else carve another role for herself. It has to get beyond just defying Batman (and now Tim--a boy younger than she is!)--again it's like they think that's the only way to show a female character is strong when sometimes it's the opposite.

It funny reading that stuff again makes me again think how weirdly Bruce treats Steph. It's like if he learned a lesson with Jason his solution was to act like as long as he continually tells Steph she shouldn't do this he has no responsibility, like he's just keeping her at arm's length. He discourages her, but it always sounds arbitrary, like maybe if she just works hard enough he'll eventually approve of her. When he gives her tests that she fails it seems more about confirming it for himself than showing her if that makes sense.

Heh. This makes me think it's good she never has much to do with Dick. Seems like he'd be a lot more straightforward with her and we can't have that. Tim, meanwhile, seems to have repressed any serious doubts about her for years until inspired by his rotten emotional state at the end of Robin. For him it's finally saying it; for her it just sounds like "I'm angry at you. Stop being Spoiler and I might be less angry." Talk about stepping into Batman's role.

I do think that Fabian N. wrote Jason with similar limitations, at least. But then other writers seem to think Jason could be a contender for the cowl...

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]psychop_rex
2009-03-23 03:29 pm UTC (link)
While I agree with you on a basic level, there are two things that make this situation a little bit different from the norm. The first one is that, in all those other situations you mentioned, Batman really was in over his head and needed help. In this case, he actually does have the situation under control, and Steph's bursting in like that only allows the Scarab a chance to escape.
Second, in all those other cases the Robins were not on probation. Batman could give 'em a mighty stern lecture afterwards, but as Robin, they were an established hero. He could scold 'em and send 'em to bed without dinner, but he couldn't kick 'em out of the house - if, uh, we take the 'strict, demanding father' aspect of Bats somewhat literally. In this case, however, he has actually said that she's on probation, and during this period, she does not disobey one word of his orders or out she goes. So by those standards, he's only doing precisely what he said he would.
Mind you, I'm not saying either one of those things is particularly fair of either him or the writers - as you said, Robins disobey Batman all the time, and up 'til now no one has gotten fired for it. And Batman should have taken into account that Steph is still in training as Robin, and a few examples of recklessness are only to be expected. But still, she DID disobey him, and she DID screw up, insofar as she allowed the villain to escape, so by Batman's way of thinking, he is perfectly in his rights to kick her out. Is he being overly strict? Definitely. Could Steph have handled Scarab if written properly? Probably (although one should take into account the fact that she has mainly tackled street punks and low-level villains up to this point - she hasn't gone up against the real pros too often). But one can't argue that Batman was being unfair - he was being true to the absolute letter of his earlier statement.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]halloweenjack
2009-03-23 03:26 pm UTC (link)
Word. You honestly have to wonder how the World's Greatest Detective could be so clueless.

(Reply to this) (Parent)



Home | Site Map | Manage Account | TOS | Privacy | Support | FAQs