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mysteryfan (mysteryfan) wrote in scans_daily,
@ 2009-10-07 14:11:00

Entry tags:

char: alfred pennyworth, char: batman/dick grayson, char: robin/damian wayne, creator: grant morrison, creator: jonathan glapion, creator: philip tan, publisher: dc comics, title: batman and robin

Spoilers! Batman and Robin #5

Enjoyed parts of the issue, but I'm wondering why it's apparently important for Dick to be suddenly proclaiming himself 'not so smart with business', these last two issues, even though he's able to be a great detective and grew up with Bruce from the age of 8 or 10. Also, is this Jason Todd 1 or Jason Todd 2?

Edited to add: Just FYI, I was commenting on the dye job choice. Pre-Crisis Jason Todd did not have red hair. He had blond hair.

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bluefall
2009-10-07 08:00 pm UTC (link)

This tastes exactly like the Damian thing, doesn't it? A vague concept that Jason died his hair once, no real interest in actually reading the stories involved, just writing whatever sideways approximation of canon suits his fancy and current plot. I'd usually attribute this sort of thing to colorist error or a miscommunication, but it's just too familiar here to be that generous.

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ex_stig213
2009-10-07 08:03 pm UTC (link)

Eh, I like it. It adds an extra dimension to his becoming the Red Hood and ties in with the Red/Black conflict that has gone throughout Morrison's Batman run.

Besides, look at it in these terms: to people unfamiliar with the original origin, it's just a small new detail that fleshes out Jason's resentment of Bruce and, as above, adds a new dimension etc. For people who are familiar with it...it's just hair colour! I don't see why it should be that big a deal.

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	bluefall 2009-10-07 08:07 pm UTC (link)
	By itself, it's not a big deal. It's annoyingly symptomatic of a consistent failing of Morrison's, though. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

ex_stig213
2009-10-07 08:16 pm UTC (link)

Enh. Morrison has stated his basic intent is to produce 5 HCs/TPBs which can be read by themselves, with only a minimal knowledge of Batman - e.g., he fights the Joker, he has a companion named Robin, his parents were gunned down, etc.

I approach it as if I were that ideal reader who had barely read any Batman comics before and was only going to read the Morrison works, and it's generally a more satisfactory read.

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statham1986
2009-10-07 09:10 pm UTC (link)

This. I like Batman, but I sure as Hell can't/won't don't want to pick up everything and haven't read too much, save Year One, Long Halloween and a few others. For a looser fan, Morrison seems to be doing a genuinely interesting job of summing up all the points about the character and adding his own interesting little wrinkles to the idea, like this, which I'm thinking will probably turn out to be the ultimate sumnation of why Bruce Wayne needs to be Batman, somehow.

But I've really liked Morrison's run. Stuff like the Three Ghosts of Batman, the Club of Heroes and the like and RIP itself were thrilling.

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	ex_stig213 2009-10-07 09:12 pm UTC (link)
	I know, right? I'm one who doesn't pick up singles because of the money drain and the ads, and only know what I do about Batman from library copies and the internet - and I enjoy the hell out of Morrison. Didja notice that RIP follows a loose version of the plot of Homer's Odyssey? I didn't notice at first, but it's there. (Reply to this) (Parent)

bluefall
2009-10-07 09:19 pm UTC (link)

The problem is, that's still not good comic writing. The ideal trade, yes, can be picked up and read without any knowledge of anything else in comicdom. This is a difficult trick to pull off, given how sprawling comicdom is. However, the ideal trade also gains richness and depth when you do have the background of a seasoned veteran. Consider, for example, League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. If that was the first thing you'd ever read in your entire life, it would make perfect sense, hold together perfectly well, be smart and compelling and a good story. However, if you happen to also know all the things he's referencing and drawing from, reading it becomes a much richer experience, rereadability increases, and the whole thing is a lot more fun and becomes even better.

Comics should be like that. A trade that anybody can pick up should be like that.

Morrison's writing stuff that is actively hurt by knowledge of wider comics continuity. This is the opposite of how things should be.

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	ex_stig213 2009-10-07 09:20 pm UTC (link)
	...So? (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	bluefall 2009-10-07 09:42 pm UTC (link)
	Let me be clear: you're saying "this is bad writing, but if I squint, I can enjoy it anyway," rather than "this isn't actually bad writing"? (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	ex_stig213 2009-10-07 09:46 pm UTC (link)
	No, I don't think it's bad writing at all. Don't automatically presume your opinion is accepted as fact by just anyone. I was giving the most articulate reply I could to your statement that "This isn't how things should be at all". (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	drsevarius 2009-10-07 10:25 pm UTC (link)
	You're basically arguing it's only enjoyable if you don't know a lot about Batman's continuity. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	ex_stig213 2009-10-07 10:31 pm UTC (link)
	...And what's wrong with that? (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	drsevarius 2009-10-07 10:35 pm UTC (link)
	What about the fans who were reading the title before Morrison came? (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	ex_stig213 2009-10-07 11:07 pm UTC (link)
	What ABOUT them? (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	drsevarius 2009-10-07 11:10 pm UTC (link)
	Don't you think it's wrong that Morrison is making it so they can't enjoy it? (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	ex_stig213 2009-10-07 11:16 pm UTC (link)
	So read something else. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	jlbarnett 2009-10-07 11:24 pm UTC (link)
	what if they want to read what they were enjoying before? (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

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lencannon, 2009-10-07 11:50 pm UTC

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pepperspray101, 2009-10-08 09:13 am UTC

	aegof.livejournal.com 2009-10-08 12:16 am UTC (link)
	Or if you don't care much about little (or big) details. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	zordboy 2009-10-08 12:54 am UTC (link)
	"Let me be clear: you're saying "this is bad writing, but if I squint, I can enjoy it anyway..." Actually, it sounds like he's saying, "this is bad writing if you have an-encyclopedia-like knowledge of stories that were written 20 years before you were born. If not, it's fine." Which I'm okay with, frankly. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	mysteryfan 2009-10-08 01:11 am UTC (link)
	Except that you don't need an encyclopedic knowledge to know things like Jason's hair color. (Reply to this) (Parent)

bluefall
2009-10-08 01:11 am UTC (link)

That's a fascinating definition of "bad writing."

Last I heard, bad writing was a property, not a conditional. If something is bad writing, it's bad writing. It doesn't magically become not bad writing if the reader happens to have the fortune of the necessary ignorance to not notice. That's like saying potato chips are health food because they don't make starving children obese.

And the basic, fundamental facts of major stories written mere months prior or consistent characterizations that have spanned decades and remained solid in every appearance of a character hardly qualify as "encyclopedia-like knowledge of stories written 20 years before you were born."

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	sistermagpie 2009-10-08 01:22 am UTC (link)
	I wouldn't say encyclopedic, actually. A character having black hair yesterday, for instance, doesn't require encyclopedic knowledge. In fact, that moment is more like a reward for close readers. If you have the knowledge you get why this random thing comes from. (Reply to this) (Parent)

mooppoom
2009-10-08 03:35 am UTC (link)

It doesn't look like he's doing that, though.

What does someone just picking that up know about Jason coming out of the Lazarus Pit. I've been reading for years, and I barely remembered that part of his reincarnation.

Why Jason Todd, when the easier way would be to invent a new Baddie. Jason's history is complicated. Someone saying 'You aren't going far enough, Batman-who-I-don't-know' is less so.

Weaving in all this old comics trivia is both re-writing canon *and* making all of this less accessible to someone just buying the book.

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	sistermagpie 2009-10-07 08:04 pm UTC (link)
	Exactly. It does seem like he wants to show off that he knows about the detail, but it doesn't actually work. And it can't be a colorist era because he's talking about it. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	aaron_bourque 2009-10-08 05:10 am UTC (link)
	Don't get me wrong, I've enjoyed most of Morrison's run (not killing Batman, but I just want Bruce back, ::sob, sob::). This, though, really does seem out of nowhere. (Reply to this) (Parent)

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