InsaneJournal

Tweak says, "Nowhere special..."

mysteryfan (mysteryfan) wrote in scans_daily,
@ 2009-10-07 14:11:00

Entry tags:

char: alfred pennyworth, char: batman/dick grayson, char: robin/damian wayne, creator: grant morrison, creator: jonathan glapion, creator: philip tan, publisher: dc comics, title: batman and robin

Spoilers! Batman and Robin #5

Enjoyed parts of the issue, but I'm wondering why it's apparently important for Dick to be suddenly proclaiming himself 'not so smart with business', these last two issues, even though he's able to be a great detective and grew up with Bruce from the age of 8 or 10. Also, is this Jason Todd 1 or Jason Todd 2?

Edited to add: Just FYI, I was commenting on the dye job choice. Pre-Crisis Jason Todd did not have red hair. He had blond hair.

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bluefall
2009-10-07 09:19 pm UTC (link)

The problem is, that's still not good comic writing. The ideal trade, yes, can be picked up and read without any knowledge of anything else in comicdom. This is a difficult trick to pull off, given how sprawling comicdom is. However, the ideal trade also gains richness and depth when you do have the background of a seasoned veteran. Consider, for example, League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. If that was the first thing you'd ever read in your entire life, it would make perfect sense, hold together perfectly well, be smart and compelling and a good story. However, if you happen to also know all the things he's referencing and drawing from, reading it becomes a much richer experience, rereadability increases, and the whole thing is a lot more fun and becomes even better.

Comics should be like that. A trade that anybody can pick up should be like that.

Morrison's writing stuff that is actively hurt by knowledge of wider comics continuity. This is the opposite of how things should be.

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	ex_stig213 2009-10-07 09:20 pm UTC (link)
	...So? (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	bluefall 2009-10-07 09:42 pm UTC (link)
	Let me be clear: you're saying "this is bad writing, but if I squint, I can enjoy it anyway," rather than "this isn't actually bad writing"? (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	ex_stig213 2009-10-07 09:46 pm UTC (link)
	No, I don't think it's bad writing at all. Don't automatically presume your opinion is accepted as fact by just anyone. I was giving the most articulate reply I could to your statement that "This isn't how things should be at all". (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	drsevarius 2009-10-07 10:25 pm UTC (link)
	You're basically arguing it's only enjoyable if you don't know a lot about Batman's continuity. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	ex_stig213 2009-10-07 10:31 pm UTC (link)
	...And what's wrong with that? (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	drsevarius 2009-10-07 10:35 pm UTC (link)
	What about the fans who were reading the title before Morrison came? (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	ex_stig213 2009-10-07 11:07 pm UTC (link)
	What ABOUT them? (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	drsevarius 2009-10-07 11:10 pm UTC (link)
	Don't you think it's wrong that Morrison is making it so they can't enjoy it? (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	ex_stig213 2009-10-07 11:16 pm UTC (link)
	So read something else. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	jlbarnett 2009-10-07 11:24 pm UTC (link)
	what if they want to read what they were enjoying before? (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

lencannon
2009-10-07 11:50 pm UTC (link)

Then you can read Batman, Streets of Gotham, Gotham City Sirens, Detective Comics, Red Robin, Batgirl, Justice League of America, Final Crisis: Batman, Batman Confidential, and Azrael. Not to mention all of the AU/Cartoon books. There is no shortage of comics about the world of Batman.

But I think the argument is out of control because I disagree with the premise that the Grant Morrison's Batman is, intentionally or not, inaccessible to hardcore fans of the Batman universe. I'm not sure where Batman and Robin is going at the minute, but large portions of his (Adjectiveless) Batman run were continuity jerk offs.

His stated intention wasn't just that people with a vague understanding of Batman can pick up a book and read it but that everything they ever learned about Batman was true in some way. That's why you have things like the Club of Heroes, Batradia and Bat-mite, Damian and Old School Batwoman.

Many of Grant Morrison's stories have a stated theme rather than just comic book story telling. You can take it or leave it (or simply find it inexpertly done) but since New X-Men his crash-bang-boom comics have always had him reinvisioning how classic characters deal with a changing world and what that meant both for them and for the reader.

I think Batman and Robin is too young for me to really decide what I like and don't like about it and if what it is doing is successful. But I think Batman:RIP was an excellent deconstruction of Batman as a hero and a rather terrifying look at what happens when the world stops making sense. Looking back, I think I would have had the same reaction if I didn't know about all the classic stories but I know I enjoyed putting them together all the same.

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	pepperspray101 2009-10-08 09:13 am UTC (link)
	Like Streets of Gotham with the goofy joker? I'M SO THERE! :D (Reply to this) (Parent)

	aegof.livejournal.com 2009-10-08 12:16 am UTC (link)
	Or if you don't care much about little (or big) details. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	zordboy 2009-10-08 12:54 am UTC (link)
	"Let me be clear: you're saying "this is bad writing, but if I squint, I can enjoy it anyway..." Actually, it sounds like he's saying, "this is bad writing if you have an-encyclopedia-like knowledge of stories that were written 20 years before you were born. If not, it's fine." Which I'm okay with, frankly. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	mysteryfan 2009-10-08 01:11 am UTC (link)
	Except that you don't need an encyclopedic knowledge to know things like Jason's hair color. (Reply to this) (Parent)

bluefall
2009-10-08 01:11 am UTC (link)

That's a fascinating definition of "bad writing."

Last I heard, bad writing was a property, not a conditional. If something is bad writing, it's bad writing. It doesn't magically become not bad writing if the reader happens to have the fortune of the necessary ignorance to not notice. That's like saying potato chips are health food because they don't make starving children obese.

And the basic, fundamental facts of major stories written mere months prior or consistent characterizations that have spanned decades and remained solid in every appearance of a character hardly qualify as "encyclopedia-like knowledge of stories written 20 years before you were born."

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	sistermagpie 2009-10-08 01:22 am UTC (link)
	I wouldn't say encyclopedic, actually. A character having black hair yesterday, for instance, doesn't require encyclopedic knowledge. In fact, that moment is more like a reward for close readers. If you have the knowledge you get why this random thing comes from. (Reply to this) (Parent)

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