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Tweak says, "HUGS NOT DRUGS"

Doop (xdoop) wrote in scans_daily,
@ 2009-10-05 18:43:00

Entry tags:

char: hippolyta of themyscira, char: nemesis/tom tresser, char: wonder woman/diana of themyscira, creator: aaron lopresti, creator: gail simone, publisher: dc comics, title: wonder woman

Wonder Woman #36

This is from Wonder Woman #36, by Simone and Lopresti.

Tom asks Diana how he can trust her, since she said she didn't love him.

They kiss, then Tom says "And I... I don't belong here." He tells Diana to set them down.

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ex_stormseye364
2009-10-06 01:31 am UTC (link)

T'was not her deepest desires of all time good sir, it was her honest feeling towards Tom. Her deepest desire will probably always be World peace and all that wonderful jazz, but that's not what she's talking about here.

Please remember she choice a busload of people over saving him.

And also remember

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RealWomenNeverWearDresses

Wonder Woman was created to be a strong FEMALE character. Females often are presented as given a choice of being "strong" or being feminine. There's no need to chose, and if any woman can be a wife and mother and a superhero, it's Wonder Woman (note she is a warrior, even while pregnant, thus the armor). Not all females want to be a mother of course, it's up to the lady.

I want to be a mother, there's no question in my mind, I love to wear dresses and pretty cloths, but it doesn't mean I need to give up hockey (10 years of it so far), soccer (15), rugby(1), camping and tree climbing (as long as I can remember). It doesn't mean that's all I want out of life, I plan on having a career, but it's a deep seated desire to me. Does that make you cringe?

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box_in_the_box
2009-10-06 01:37 am UTC (link)

Here's another part of my problem - she's been strenuously portrayed as an in-canon VIRGIN for decades, and now, the ONLY reason they're touching on her sexuality is so she can get married and IMMEDIATELY have a child? For fuck's sake, even hopeless monogamist nerds like Clark Kent and Peter Parker got more fucking premarital play than that! It disturbs the FUCK out of me that, unless she literally shows up to the altar pregnant, she has to live like a fucking NUN. Before she becomes a MOM, how about we let her character actually OWN HER OWN FUCKING SEXUALITY?

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ex_stormseye364
2009-10-06 01:59 am UTC (link)

She's had other relationships, not great ones but there you go. Gail herself says she'd like to think Diana is not a virgin, but Gail can't think of anyone she'd have lost it to.

I tend to see Diana with a low sex drive, and would only peruse someone if she really wanted to which is totally valid. Her sexuality may be that she doesn't want to most of the time, and that's all hers as well. If she wanted, she could pluck a guy off the street if she thought he was hot and have her way with nearly any one. The fact that she doesn't and only goes for those that she likes is her choice and is her sexuality.

She offered to shower with Tom last issue, did you read it? It may imply she has some experience or that she was willing to embrace her sexual self in that moment with him. She's also been the initiator in this relationship, from the asking out to the first kiss, to the shower offer.

Is her wanting a baby despite being a virgin the problem? Or is it the marrying first thing? It's not the ONLY reason for her currently look at her sexuality, but it is part of it. But that's life right? Sex can be linked to children if the people involved are down with that and Diana was. It's not for everybody, sex + relationship = kids, but that's not what they are saying. Or you I know.

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box_in_the_box
2009-10-06 02:12 am UTC (link)

Is her wanting a baby despite being a virgin the problem? Or is it the marrying first thing?

Both, quite frankly. Especially given her status as a feminist icon, I find it to be an unacceptable double-standard that even Peter and Clark, two of the more buttoned-down and chaste superheroes out there, in terms of how seriously they take the responsibilities of sex, and how serious-minded they've been in pursuit of their OTPs (I'm speaking about pre-OMD Peter, you understand) still got to have IN-CANON scenes of losing their virginity, whereas Diana did not. It really underscores the virgin/whore dichtoimy, in which a woman can only possess power for as long as her hymen is intact. Plus, as far as I'm concerned, whether you're male or female, you really have no business becoming a parent unless you're sexually an adult, because otherwise, you're basically raising a child while a part of you has yet to evolve beyond childhood ignorance.

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	(Anonymous) 2009-10-06 02:43 am UTC (link)
	So those of us that hate sex but want a family are shit out of luck??? My son and I are very happy together thank you, and I remain glad I didn't have to sleep with his father to have him. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	punishermax 2009-10-06 03:43 am UTC (link)
	I suppose his argument hinges on the idea that you must have sex to be able to explaine it to them in later life I think? It's a tad...strange. I don't know if he's talking any type of sex or simply hetero sex. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	box_in_the_box 2009-10-06 03:49 am UTC (link)
	Hetero, homo, either one. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	punishermax 2009-10-06 03:52 am UTC (link)
	Well as the person above me states, if one has a knowledge of sex yet has never experienced it in person, why does that deny them the chance of a child? (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

box_in_the_box
2009-10-06 04:02 am UTC (link)

I think you need to have direct experience with deeper relationships, before you take on the responsibilities of a LIFELONG relationship of being a parent to a child. By that logic, I'm also extremely uncomfortable with people who have only had emotionally shallow sexual relationships choosing to have kids.

Then again, given the countless number of kids who have been irreparably fucked up by their parents in this world - many of them in supposedly "normal" and "ideal" families - I tend to think that parenting should be a privilege rather than a right to begin with, to the point that, if there's any doubt, a person should be childfree.

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YOUR PRIVILEGE IS SHOWING!
(Anonymous)
2009-10-06 06:35 am UTC (link)

How dare you, as a sexual being, and therefore a member of a highly dominant majority, tell me, as an asexual and therefore invisible person, how to live my life. And I say that in all sincerity, this is not a troll post or a joke.

You post so cogently and passionately about rape, well let me tell you, *consensual* sex feels like rape to me. I'm a PhD and a career woman, and I have a happy, healthy, well adjusted son. I wanted him more than I wanted anything else in the world. I'm a damn good mother, and anything that I can't teach him due to practical inexperience (which I think is minor) he has a dozen aunts and uncles who can and will.

You're over the line this time.

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To the poster whose post has yet to be unscreened:

box_in_the_box
2009-10-06 07:12 am UTC (link)

I'm not patient enough to wait for that to happen, so I think I'll just quote your reply and respond to it here.

YOUR PRIVILEGE IS SHOWING!

Upon further consideration, yes, it is.

You're over the line this time.

Upon further consideration, yes, I am.

How dare you, as a sexual being, and therefore a member of a highly dominant majority, tell me, as an asexual and therefore invisible person, how to live my life.

All fair points. I apologize sincerely.

You post so cogently and passionately about rape, well let me tell you, *consensual* sex feels like rape to me.

And this is where YOU just crossed the line.

Especially if you're going to call someone else out on THEIR privilege, in SHOUTY ALL-CAPS, then as I thought you would have learned from my own example, you'd better not be committing any privilege!fail of your own.

With regard to this specific quote, I don't care HOW unpleasant you find consensual sex, because YOU HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO RIGHT to compare it to rape, by virtue of the simple fact that consensual sex, BY DEFINITION, can NOT be rape.

So, congratulations - in the process of telling me to check my biases regarding asexuals, which was correct of you to do, you nonetheless managed to INSULT ALL RAPE VICTIMS.

Once again, I apologize to you and any other asexuals whom I may have offended.

But the next words that YOU type NEED to be an apology to any rape victims whom YOU may have offended, unless you want to be branded a hypocrite.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	Re: To the poster whose post has yet to be unscreened: (Anonymous) 2009-10-06 08:33 am UTC (link)
	Fair call. I accept your apology and offer my own to anyone who may have been offended. I was trying to show the depth of my feelings and misspoke. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	Re: To the poster whose post has yet to be unscreened: (Anonymous) 2009-10-06 08:57 am UTC (link)
	To clarify my comment a little... What I actually meant was that looking back as an adult I feel that I never actually wanted to have sex, not once, even the few times I agreed to it. The pressure placed by society however is massive, so I gave in. I realise that's not what I said so my apology stands. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	scottyquick 2009-10-06 03:29 am UTC (link)
	What makes you think she's a virgin? I can see her having slept with Rama and Trevor Barnes off the top of my head, and maybe an Amazon at some point. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	box_in_the_box 2009-10-06 03:51 am UTC (link)
	The repeated statements by DC editorial over the years that she's still a virgin, for one thing, to the point that Phil Jiminez flatly stated in interviews that he created Trevor Barnes to pop Diana's cherry, except that the backlash against his character for being a Marty Stu ensured that it never happened. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	scottyquick 2009-10-06 03:53 am UTC (link)
	Does that really matter? I mean, Marvel says Spidey isn't about responsibility. Now, only reading the books, is Spidey about responsibility? (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

box_in_the_box
2009-10-06 03:57 am UTC (link)

It's indicative, like Marvel's statements about Spidey, of how utterly wrong-headed the movites behind their stories are. I judge the current Spidey stories negatively in no small part because of the mentality that underlies their production, and the fact that even Gail, who WANTS Diana not to be a virgin can't even think of HOW to make that canon? Says a LOT about how fucked-up DC's attitudes as a whole are about her sexuality.

You actually just reinforced my point.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	scottyquick 2009-10-06 04:05 am UTC (link)
	My point was that comic companies can be wrong when you look at the stories they published. Possible sex #1. <a href="http://carolastrickland.com/comics/wwcentral/misc_indexes/quotes/thirdbase.jpg>Possible sex #2</a>. Not to mention she spent 1000 years in Asgard and one traveling the world. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

box_in_the_box
2009-10-06 04:09 am UTC (link)

Yes, but I'm not just judging them based on the content of their stories, but on their wrong-headed intent, because while I do prefer "the author to be dead" in certain cases of interpretation, I cannot view things through that lens if it means letting authors off the hook for motivations that I find offensive. I take the editorial party line into account because I feel morally obligated to punish the storytellers for it.

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