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Tweak says, "I do what I want."

Doop (xdoop) wrote in scans_daily,
@ 2009-10-05 18:43:00

Entry tags:

char: hippolyta of themyscira, char: nemesis/tom tresser, char: wonder woman/diana of themyscira, creator: aaron lopresti, creator: gail simone, publisher: dc comics, title: wonder woman

Wonder Woman #36

This is from Wonder Woman #36, by Simone and Lopresti.

Tom asks Diana how he can trust her, since she said she didn't love him.

They kiss, then Tom says "And I... I don't belong here." He tells Diana to set them down.

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box_in_the_box
2009-10-06 01:15 am UTC (link)

I guess my problem is that I will always instinctively cringe at any scene that shows that the deepest desire of any strong, self-sufficient woman is to be a wife and mother. Regardless of the intent, regardless of the smaller context of the story, once you look at it in regard to the larger context of historic representations of women, it will ALWAYS feel slightly too close to SHE JUST NEEDED A GOOD STIFF ONE to feel comfortable to me.

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toasty_fresh
2009-10-06 04:21 am UTC (link)

Honestly? I'm finding your views that a woman can't be strong and self-sufficient as the same time as wanting a child kind of offensive. Historically, yes, the fact that many women want children has lead to negative stereotypes, but saying that women who want children are weak is just as bad a stereotype as saying all women want are children and a kitchen. Saying that a women can't be portrayed as strong and wanting a child at the same time is just as demeaning to women who want children. It's just another type of sexism.

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box_in_the_box
2009-10-06 04:29 am UTC (link)

Saying that a women can't be portrayed as strong and wanting a child at the same time is just as demeaning to women who want children.

Not saying that, and in fact, I already explained in this thread how this scene could have portrayed Diana's desire to be a wife and mother without reducing her to the mere sum of those roles, so I'll thank you to keep your strawman to yourself. The problem is, I don't see any evidence of inner strength in Diana at all in the way that she's portrayed in this scene. She comes across as socially awkward on a par with the current portrayal of Peter Parker, and I think you already know my feelings about THAT. Someone else said that they loved Aaron Lopresti's illustration of Diana's awkward face, but that's one of many reasons why I hated this scene, because it's yet another sign, as I said before in this thread, of yet another hero being made to act stupidly and being deprived of any sort of support system, which has been Diana's entire status quo for quite a while now.

I should not have to go OUTSIDE of superheroes to find the best "competence porn," and I'm kind of offended at being told that Diana's ongoing fuck-up of a would-be romantic relationship with an utterly worthless shitbag of an oversold, underwritten character is supposed to make it easier for me to relate to her.

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toasty_fresh
2009-10-06 04:41 am UTC (link)

Not saying that, and in fact, I already explained in this thread how this scene could have portrayed Diana's desire to be a wife and mother without reducing her to the mere sum of those roles, so I'll thank you to keep your strawman to yourself.

Okay, I understand where you're coming from about Diana, etc in the story, but I was responding to this:

I guess my problem is that I will always instinctively cringe at any scene that shows that the deepest desire of any strong, self-sufficient woman is to be a wife and mother. Regardless of the intent, regardless of the smaller context of the story, once you look at it in regard to the larger context of historic representations of women, it will ALWAYS feel slightly too close to SHE JUST NEEDED A GOOD STIFF ONE to feel comfortable to me.

I mean, idk, how else am I supposed to interpret that other than there's something wrong with a strong woman in a story wanting a baby? Was it just poor word choice on your part? You're comparing a woman wanting a baby to, well, "needing a good stiff one," no matter how it's presented. If that's not what you meant, I mean, I apologize, but I don't think it was too crazy of me to have thought that, and it certainly wasn't a strawman.

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box_in_the_box
2009-10-06 04:57 am UTC (link)

I'm speaking of portrayals of women in stories, which I thought I made quite clear. In real life, yes, wives and mothers can be and often are smart, strong and self-directed (as often as husbands and fathers, in any event), but a) stories are not real life, b) most mass-market stories that deal with this are written either by men or by women who have deeply internalized the mentality of men with regard to gender roles (O HAI STEPHENIE MEYER), and therefore c) you'll forgive me for being instinctively prejudiced against portrayals of strong, self-sufficient women wanting to be wives and mothers in stories, on the grounds that they'll merely be preludes to I WAS ONLY SO STUCK-UP BECAUSE MY LIFE NEEDED TO REVOLVE AROUND THE COCK, because in literally COUNTLESS stories in which this trope appears, d) my initial bias all-too-often turns out to be entirely correct. Given this broader historic context, then yes, you're goddamned right I have a bias, just as much as any number of black TV viewers have against crime-dramas in which black characters frequently appear as criminals, in spite of how well-told and genuinely respectful any individual examples might be, because you can't help but cringe at something that contributes to what you see as a troublesome overall trend, which is that, even in the 21st century, portrayals of women having sex are still far more likely to be regarded as synonymous with marriage and parenthood than portrayals of men having sex. THAT'S the imbalance, regardless of intent.

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toasty_fresh
2009-10-06 05:29 am UTC (link)

I'm speaking of portrayals of women in stories, which I thought I made quite clear.

Yes, you did-- the way you said it sounded like you were saying a woman wanting a baby in a story, regardless of anything, is a bad thing, because it is contrary to being a strong woman. I misunderstood, and I apologize.

just as much as any number of black TV viewers have against crime-dramas in which black characters frequently appear as criminals, in spite of how well-told and genuinely respectful any individual examples might be, because you can't help but cringe at something that contributes to what you see as a troublesome overall trend,

Okay, hold up. That's totally different. People being criminals is an inherently negative thing, and the negativity is simply enhanced by racism. Women wanting children is an inherently positive thing, to which negativity has been added through sexism. You can't compare the two. The way to solve the issue of black people being stereotyped as criminals is not to portray the criminal well, but to have the black people be the cops/good guys/et cetera. The way to solve the issue of women being portrayed as bitches who immediately realize that all they needed was a baby and a man to be happy is not the same as the solution to the problem of black people as criminals-- i.e. having no woman ever want to have a child in a movie/television show/comic. The solution is to portray women wanting children as strong and independent-- the "well-told" and "genuinely respectful" examples you were talking about.

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box_in_the_box
2009-10-06 05:44 am UTC (link)

Women wanting children is an inherently positive thing [...]

No. It is, at best, a neutral thing, because in both fiction and in real life, there are indeed such things as people who should and shouldn't have children, with part of that playing into their reasons for wanting to be parents, which does dovetail neatly with this point here ...

[...] to which negativity has been added through sexism.

But to say that childbirth is INHERENTLY POSITIVE, in a world rampant with overpopulation and parental abuse and neglect and parents who are willing and eager to foist sexist roles onto children and live out their own lives through their children? Childbirth has the POTENTIAL to be positive, but saying that it's INHERENTLY positive, in light of all the factors I mentioned, is downright EVIL.

Likewise, while criminal behavior is indeed inherently negative (except when motivated by just moral reasons, such as resistance to a government that is wrong), portrayals of criminality - even of a certain minority group that is stereotypically associated with criminality - still possess the POTENTIAL to be positive, if instead of presenting blanket condemnations of black criminals, they present the unfair societal factors that impact blacks far harder than whites (even though, as I said, even such thoughtful portrayals contribute to cringe-worthy trends on the whole).

The solution is to portray women wanting children as strong and independent-- the "well-told" and "genuinely respectful" examples you were talking about.

I'm sorry, but I simply can't tolerate this, for reasons that no longer have to do with gender, because portraying the desire to become a parent, in either gender, as an automatic good? Is utterly anathema to me, given the significant numbers of men AND women in the world who should be actively barred from ever wanting to become parents, AT ALL COSTS. I'll say it again; parenthood, like gun usage, is strictly neutral on the whole - in certain cases, it can ultimately be of benefit, but it can also DESTROY LIVES.

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toasty_fresh
2009-10-06 05:56 am UTC (link)

Okay, a neutral then, but my point still stands. I didn't mean that every person wanting a child in a movie should be portrayed as a saint, I meant there should be women who want children in movies that are strong. There should also be women in the media who want children for the wrong reasons. There should also be weak women wanting children in the media. There should also be strong women who don't want children, and so on and so forth. By representing all these, you get a neutral portrayal of women wanting children. Without having strong women wanting children, the portrayal of women wanting children is not neutral at all-- it is, in fact, negative, which I think we agreed was a bad thing . . .

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box_in_the_box
2009-10-06 06:06 am UTC (link)

As long as negative motives for being a mother are not portrayed as positive ones.

And Diana wanting to be a mother to cater to what she perceives as Tom's desires?

Negative motive.

Then again, I also have my own opinions on "wanting to keep the Amazon bloodline alive," because as with mutants, the characters spend so much time preaching about how the content of our character is what makes us valuable, that to see them go all OMG WE MUST PRESERVE THE BLOODLINE feels INCREDIBLY racist to me.

You save lives, and raise children, because they're PEOPLE, and NOT because they're your chosen vessels for the Sang Real. Quite frankly, FUCK both Cyclops and Diana for thinking of putting that sort of burden on CHILDREN.

See also: The current portrayal of Doom's evil as "in the blood" in the latest issues of FF, and the elevation of Damian in the Batbooks, just because of who his sperm donor was. FUCK GENETIC PREDESTINATION, because as a philosophy, it is INHERENTLY EVIL.

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toasty_fresh
2009-10-06 06:14 am UTC (link)

And Diana wanting to be a mother to cater to what she perceives as Tom's desires?

Negative motive.

I mean idk I just thought she wanted to be a mom and it had nothing to do with Tom's desires, but I don't really want to talk about it because we started out with me misunderstanding your comment and now we're talking abut genetic predestination and I'm not really sure how I got here . . .

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	box_in_the_box 2009-10-06 06:17 am UTC (link)
	It was either you or another poster that offered as an excuse that Diana wanted to repopulate the Amazon race with Tom, so I don't see how that can be excluded from this discussion. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

toasty_fresh
2009-10-06 06:29 am UTC (link)

Well, I was trying to end the conversation on a fairly lighthearted note, but okay . . . it wasn't me. I didn't say that. We weren't discussing it (although I'm not really sure what the heck I was trying to discuss anymore), so it wasn't in the discussion. We have a difference of opinion on the subject and I don't really feel like talking about it anymore because we're not going to get anywhere . . . also, I'll probably misunderstand half the stuff you say and then say a lot more stupid stuff that I don't mean because I'm tired and then I'll feel like an idiot and that will suck so let's just end this here.

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box_in_the_box
2009-10-06 06:15 am UTC (link)

... In fact, you know what? If Diana is so all-fired-up about passing on Amazon culture, and she has so much fucking COMPASSION, then why the fuck hasn't she ADOPTED ANY UNWANTED CHILDREN - like from China, or any other country where girls are less wanted than boys - and RAISED them as fucking Amazons? By being all OMG THE BLOODLINE, she's basically endorsing the notion that culture is GENES rather than PEOPLE and KNOWLEDGE, and FUCK THAT.

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	toasty_fresh 2009-10-06 06:45 am UTC (link)
	But yeah, no, positive is not what I meant at all, and that was just a really unfortunate choice of words . . . I more meant it could be both positive and negative Or neutral As you said . . . Okay looking over this entire conversation I realize just how many dumb things I've said . . . ugh this is what I get for commenting on posts late I night I guess (Reply to this) (Parent)

galateus
2009-10-06 06:10 am UTC (link)

Women wanting children is an inherently positive thing

Yeah, noooo. Wanting or not wanting kids isn't 'inherently' anything except for a personal preference.

the negativity is simply enhanced by racism
I think you have it backwards. Stereotypes reinforce marginalizing a group, whether that's demonizing (with negative traits) or fetishizing (positive traits--"noble savage," "saintly pure-as-wind-driven-snow damsel," etc). Stereotypes are the hurt, here; whether it's a 'compliment' doesn't make it better. An individual example can be well-told and respectful, but the fact that it's reinforcing a larger pattern is still a problem.

The solution is to have a wider variety of characters who don't fit the stereotypes altogether, not just having well-done examples that do.

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toasty_fresh
2009-10-06 06:40 am UTC (link)

Yeah, positive was a bad choice of words, I'll admit-- what I really meant was, as box said, that it's neutral, not inherently negative like the stereotype of black criminals is. But ugh of course I didn't say that in the first place . . . even I'm a little surprised sometimes how idiotic I sound in these discussions, lol.

And I think you're misreading my comment, because that's what I was saying . . . I said,

The way to solve the issue of black people being stereotyped as criminals is not to portray the criminal well, but to have the black people be the cops/good guys/et cetera.

Idk maybe I worded it weird but I'm saying we shouldn't portray the criminals well, but have them be something else, which is what you said . . . Also, when I said "negativity is enhanced by racism" I meant the negative role of a criminal is made even more negative because it's a racist portrayal of a criminal, and this portrayal can never be anything but negative, you know? Whereas a woman wanting children can either be negative or positive . . .

ugh I am so sorry about the ghedit, maybe if I could properly express my opinions in the first place I wouldn't be spamming your inbox over here . . .

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