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The post from which the following quote originates, has been removed because it is offensive. But since I don't like for difficult topics to be swept under the carpet, I've been opening this thread.
I remind you that this community is for a discussion of books and fictional characters. It's not about discussing general principles. In this case, though, I feel that an exception needs to be made. Discussions always will have 'real world' elements, but they should be kept to a minimum. In this case things went too far.
totalreadr wrote: Oh, I dunno. The whole reason I couldn't get up much sympathy for Emmett Till over on terri's lj was because he was popular and "acting macho." In my reading on the case I even found his family quoted as expressing that his death was *especially* tragic because he *was* so popular! For me their cris de coeur Did Not Work As Intended in the same way that Gerda Weissman Klein's /All But My Life/ did not (http://raisin-gal.livejournal.com/1539.h
Emmett Till was popular, macho, had a bright future, etc....up north. Down south, none of that mattered because he was still black.
This is, indeed, a horrible thing to say, and for once I have to agree with the trolls who come here and shout their protest. Why is no one of the regulars protesting this? Do I have to open up the community for anonymous users to protest stuff like that? I'm trying to protect you guys and give you a niche, but that doesn't mean that stuff like this can just stand.
Racism can, perhaps, be debated in an academical manner when it is about fictional characters. This is about a real, horrible lynch murder. This is crossing the line.
Here's the link from ravenstar84 again: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmett_Till
Yes, I know, like others who hang out on her journal she's one of the wank trolls. But sometimes the trolls are right.
This thread is now closed
I remind you that this community is for a discussion of books and fictional characters. It's not about discussing general principles. In this case, though, I feel that an exception needs to be made. Discussions always will have 'real world' elements, but they should be kept to a minimum. In this case things went too far.
totalreadr wrote: Oh, I dunno. The whole reason I couldn't get up much sympathy for Emmett Till over on terri's lj was because he was popular and "acting macho." In my reading on the case I even found his family quoted as expressing that his death was *especially* tragic because he *was* so popular! For me their cris de coeur Did Not Work As Intended in the same way that Gerda Weissman Klein's /All But My Life/ did not (http://raisin-gal.livejournal.com/1539.h
Emmett Till was popular, macho, had a bright future, etc....up north. Down south, none of that mattered because he was still black.
This is, indeed, a horrible thing to say, and for once I have to agree with the trolls who come here and shout their protest. Why is no one of the regulars protesting this? Do I have to open up the community for anonymous users to protest stuff like that? I'm trying to protect you guys and give you a niche, but that doesn't mean that stuff like this can just stand.
Racism can, perhaps, be debated in an academical manner when it is about fictional characters. This is about a real, horrible lynch murder. This is crossing the line.
Here's the link from ravenstar84 again: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmett_Till
Yes, I know, like others who hang out on her journal she's one of the wank trolls. But sometimes the trolls are right.
This thread is now closed
I'm hardly proud of that. If I'd never heard of Till in my life there'd be some excuse for me, but I had heard of him so there isn't. Of course I should have spent ten minutes checking out the facts and then got involved.
All i can say is that next time something like this happens, I'll do something about it.
Thank you, Sylvanawood
Absolutely, Sylvana, and I am very glad that you deleted totalreadr's offensive comments about an appalling, racially motivated murder.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmett_Till
Snape fandom is better than this. Thank you.
-- pearlette from Live Journal
Re: Thank you, Sylvanawood
This "Emmett Till was popular, macho, had a bright future, etc....up north. Down south, none of that mattered because he was still black" I would have more likely taken as a general comment about racist attitudes in the South compared to the North (whether accurate or no), but the first part... Wow. Ugh.
I also never heard of Emmett Till. Horrible things like his death are things I'd wish undone, the hate unlearned.
I don't even really understand the rambling of the troll, to tell the truth.
Hate is awful and should be stood against. I'm sorry you had to stand for so many.
A young boy was tortured and murdered. His mother spent the rest of her life trying to bring the bastards who committed the crime to justice.
The bastards bragged about killing him!
Does spending time on the net put a stopper in people's humanity?
As a person of color I'm beyond angry, and I've had it with fandom and the racist shit that goes on.
I'm sorry it took me so long to react. But please don't doubt people's humanity. The ones on the net are just like those outside, some are decent, some are not. We all make mistakes, too. Only, I think, we get exposed to each other more than we otherwise would.
I had wanted to do two things: first, to post an apology clarifying my original post, and second, to ask the person who brought up Emmet Till what he/she meant. I will now probably do the first, but not the second. But what I wanted to say to that person was that, in 1950s Chicago, Emmet Till was not privileged. There was no place in America in the 1950s that a young black boy could be considered privileged. That also shocked me.
And yes, fictional characters are fictional. I was simply comparing Lily to Catherine Earnshaw, and never expected things to get to this point.
Anyway, I'm sorry if I somehow encouraged this comment. Have a bit more to say, but I'll message you privately, if I may.
Thank you for deleting the post.
Lynn
I'm willing if you're willing...
Yeah, I've just been waiting for you to show up.
If you seriously want to discuss this, then repost this on the mod thread: http://asylums.insanejournal.com/snaped
Oh, really?
If you, Sylvanawood, want to seriously discuss this, I want to seriously discuss this with you. If you don't, then I don't, because there would be no point. So, after I post this, the ball is in your court, to do with as you please.
I do have a proposition for you, if you want to discuss this, though - I will make you a deal:
If you agree to discuss that article on aversive racism with me first (in other words, discuss the mere concept of aversive racism with me, so I can figure out if we are even on the same page with the concept before discussing how it may apply to Snapedom) then I promise to discuss a topic of your choice (one topic at a time, please), next.
Or, alternatively...
I will discuss a topic of your choice, first, if you promise to discuss that article on aversive racism with me, next.
Deal?
BTW, in case this is a factor for you, I haven't made a peep anywhere else about you or Snapedom since I made the post that is reposted below (on the off chance that you seriously wanted to discuss this with me and just in case you would shut down on me if I did that - I'm willing to make that concession if there's hope that you will discuss the matter with me with an open mind).
Reposted, as requested:
Why don't you and your friends write a post about your stand on this, where others can reply, for a change? It's so easy to hop in here and there, anonymous or not, and yell at other people's ideas.
What do you mean by this? Do you want a stand made here at Snapedom? Is anyone here really open to that? You have drawn the line at the latest instance of a blatant racist statement (and I'm glad to see that), but the aversive racist (and also the aversive misogynistic) statements have been defended to the death, here. And the problem is that the people making these statements and defending them, don't see them as being bigoted statements (unless they do, in which case it is conscious bigotry going on as opposed to unconscious). And no argument or debate has convinced the people making these statements that these statements are problematic to say the least, no matter how civilly made or well thought out the argument/debate was.
I believe that no one here intends to say bigoted things, but bigoted things get said here nonetheless. And you can't change what you don't acknowledge. And no one here seems to want to acknowledge the underlying real life problem, nor do they seem willing to to do so. I don't see the point in trying to change anyone's mind here. It seems like a lost cause, to me.
Just in case it isn't a lost cause, I offer up this article: Aversive Racism - SUBTLE BIAS, COMBATING
Re: I'm willing if you're willing...
Who, exactly, do you think you are? I've seldom seen such a conglomerate of self-righteous, presumptuous crap.
*I* don't want to discuss anything with you. I'm running this asylum wich isn't strictly moderated as you'd know if you'd ever had taken the time to read the rules, but I rarely participate and most of the time just let it run its course. If *you* want to discuss things with people on this asylum, and *they* want to discuss things with you, then go for it, here.
Apart from that, I don't care one bit what you or your buddies think of me. Whether you think me a bigot, a racist, or whatever, by your definition, doesn't matter. People who are important to me know where I stand. Trolls aren't important to me.
You are a known STFU et al. troll, so anything you say here isn't taken seriously by default. That goes for your other buddies as well. That makes it so difficult to actually listen and talk to you when something serious comes up.
likewise
duj
This has nothing to do with whether Joanne Rowling can do no wrong, nor whether her fictional character Lily Evans is a sparkling pure saint--those are derails and strawman arguments, not even accurate, let alone relevant.
The recent explosion of wank reflects badly on your community, though it's obvious that most of you realize the original comment was disgusting. That's nobody's fault but Totalreadr's. But the fact that he could even feel comfortable saying something so over-the-line isn't a coinicedence. You guys have set a tone and candence that allows for this shit, and if you're not willing to admit it, and fix it, then you're going to keep getting called out by 'trolls'.
-Chaltab
I agree with this, Sylvana.
Also, general remark aimed at no-one in particular: I also think it’s misguided to assume people are racists because they take a certain line on a purely fictional character (however infuriating it may be that some readers mangle the obvious racism theme in the HP books).
The offensive remark about Emmett Till was, of course, another matter entirely.
-- Pearlette
This thread is now closed. There has been enough wank.