InsaneJournal

Tweak says, "There wolf. There castle."

volksjager (volksjager) wrote in scans_daily,
@ 2009-05-02 22:13:00

Current location:	Umbagog
Current music:	Aga Agaht " I'm not NOT licking frogs"
Entry tags:	char: anti-monitor, char: batman/bruce wayne, char: captain america/steve rogers, char: green lantern/hal jordan, char: robin/nightwing/dick grayson, char: superman/clark kent, char: wasp/janet van dyne, creator: george perez, creator: marv wolfman, group: justice league of america, group: legion of super-heroes, publisher: dc comics, publisher: marvel comics, theme: retcon politics, title: avengers/jla, title: crisis on infinite earths

How do you know when a character needs a re-boot ?????

er... what the hell kind of Batman said that ???? Break out the bat pom-poms and lead a cheer !

This is from 1986 Crisis on Infinite Earths.

Batman is sitting the attack on the anti Monitor out with no ideas,a watches as the strong guy try to punch the guy out . Yikes.

THIS is Batman...

This is from JLA Avengers ( one of the best crossovers ever written KB understands both teams with a depth that is spot on. but thats another post)

Batman does not need help from anyone. He doesn't wait for instructions he is already 4 moves ahead of anyone else. His power ? His brain,he knows people and their power better than they do. Probably knows half a dozen ways to counter them and the heavywieghts are just a little worried about this.

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	drsevarius 2009-05-02 10:30 pm UTC (link)
	What kind of Batman said that? One who still had a soul. :( (Reply to this) (Thread)

	luxshine 2009-05-02 10:48 pm UTC (link)
	This. That moment in the original Crisis is very powerful, as we have a Batman who knows that he can trust his teammates, and that by going into the battle, he risks distracting them in an important moment. It's teamwork, not the Batman show. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	volksjager 2009-05-02 11:09 pm UTC (link)
	hmm, just can't go alone with that. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

ebailey140
2009-05-05 03:54 pm UTC (link)

You have to keep in mind that this is the pre-Miller Batman, who actually did trust his friends (who were genuinely friends) to be able to do their jobs. He also had limits, someone who was brilliant, but not neccessarily someone who had a plan already set for years in case the Anti-Monitor (who he didn't know about until the series began) tried to destroy the Multiverse.

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	"pre-miller" volksjager 2009-05-05 03:56 pm UTC (link)
	But that is my point. Bats needed a reboot. :) (Reply to this) (Parent)

thebat_man
2009-08-28 05:21 pm UTC (link)

Frank Miller's Batman actually did trust his allies to be able to do their jobs (who shouldn't all be genuinely superfriends, since that's generic. All the characters should have their own individual personalities and opinions of Bruce and it's more interesting if they are not all best buddies). Remember Green Arrow and Robin in Dark Knight Returns, and Catgirl, the Atom, the Batboys, the Flash, Green Arrow, Plastic Man, Green Lantern and Superman in DK2. Batman actually did trust his allies to be able to do their jobs and Batman himself wasn't left useless. "Even though he can't leap tall buildings or throw cars around, he's smarter than any of them. A guy as smart and determined as Batman would use every resource at his disposal." - Frank Miller.
http://archive.comicdom.gr/interviews.php?id=17&lang=en
Not just in Frank Miller's Batman material. In the Justice League by Keith Giffen Batman is the leader and strategist. Very stern. In Keith Giffen's Justice League #1 Mister Miracle thinks to himself "It's pretty clear why Batman and Guy Gardner are at each others throats -- they're two of a kind -- and it's a kind I'm not too thrilled with!" In the JLA by Grant Morrison, Batman is the smartest. Plus, he is the chief strategist and problem solver. In JLA: Tower of Babel by Mark Waid shows Batman has devised ways to defeat all of the JLA.
"It's all just psychology and charisma with Batman. Everyone is wary of him because he's hard as nails, smarter than a bag full of whips and he knows all their flaws and weaknesses. There are just some people in the world that you don't fuck with and Batman is one of them." - Grant Morrison.
http://www.strange-haven.com/news/100304/news3.html
"There's a healthy amount of paranoia in Batman. He knows how to defeat each one of [his teammates] in case something goes wrong. So with every relationship with all the others, as much as they might find areas that they can agree on or talk about, he always sees them as potential dangers. So that limits what he's capable of giving to them. He feels superior to every single one of them, because he basically knows he is. He's the aristocrat of the superheroes—he's been brought up with money and knows he's the most gifted human being on the planet. He's almost so arrogant it's unbelievable, but he's not going to throw his weight around.
Despite the other members' fears and distrust, Batman realizes he's needed on the team. As the 'ultimate human,' he's the team's problem solver, something [that] humans do best. In a lot of situations, the team will come to Batman and ask, 'What the hell do we do?'" - Grant Morrison. http://jl.toonzone.net/batman/batman.htm
Batman has to rely on his intellect to fight crime. He is the world's greatest detective. He is the scientist. He is the strategist. He is a natural leader. He is the smarter tactician. He is a natural leader. Batman needs that edge so he isn't redundant.

In the case of Anti-M, Batman could have Green Lantern destroy Anti-M. The power ring has been shown capable of accomplishing anything within the imagination of the ring bearer. Marv Wolfman's Crisis was merely padded with fluff. The Crisis on Infinite Earths could have ended in a single issue. Wolfman was stretching the story and providing excuses for extended uninspired slugfests, shock value and angst. The cracks in the Crisis facade grew ever wider. And "killing off" so many potentially good characters rather than making them strong, viable additions to the DC line-up was a cop-out. Any writer with half a brain can see the potential the characters have. The western hero Nighthawk for example. It is doubtful that many readers ever knew that character existed - so why bother to bring him back and kill him? If a character is unknown to most of your readers he's already dead to them anyway.

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volksjager
2009-05-02 11:08 pm UTC (link)

I will not entirely disagree with you. The pendulum swung too far. What Frank Miller started , making Bataman a very driven character, turned into a Batman for whom ,bruce wayne was just a farce and he sat at night alone in the batcave stabbing himself with a knife,just to see if he could feel anything.

I had really hoped that after Infinite Crisis th hardcore obsessive would be dialed back a few ...but it didn't really work out. There needs to be more interplay with Bruce wayne the person and Batman the avenger.

But Marv Wolfman is just so far off the mark with the first example.

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	cat_13145 2009-05-03 02:08 am UTC (link)
	Wait where is this self harming Batman? (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	volksjager 2009-05-03 08:10 am UTC (link)
	I was speaking figuratively. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	aaron_bourque 2009-05-03 02:06 pm UTC (link)
	Read Batman: Tenses (or better yet, don't. The Cully Hamner art is its only redeeming quality). Bruce bashes his head against his mirror for no real reason, wanders half naked in the snow in an attempt to get a better look at Gotham, grunts like a caveman after defeating a half dozen mooks . . . And that's just the three big instances I can recall. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	volksjager 2009-05-03 03:08 pm UTC (link)
	I think what the other person is on about is reffering to Batamn as if he was a "cutter" or something. I meant something more like what your saying, destructive behavior. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	silicone_soul 2009-05-03 03:27 pm UTC (link)
	Speaking of cutting, Batman does exactly that in Arkham Asylum: A Serious House on Serious Earth, with a shard of glass through his hand. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	volksjager 2009-05-03 03:30 pm UTC (link)
	Havn't read that. Its just figurative, then again maybe it when Mark Waid gave us "Hypertime" all stories that can happen, do happen... (Reply to this) (Parent)

	aaron_bourque 2009-05-03 08:39 pm UTC (link)
	To be fair, that was an instance of him trying to sort through the insanity by focusing on the reality of the pain. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	jlroberson 2009-05-03 03:53 am UTC (link)
	No, one written by an oddly-religious-sounding 80s Marv Wolfman. (Reply to this) (Parent)

killermoth1
2009-05-03 01:33 am UTC (link)

I'm sorry, but I disagree.

Batman has always been taking help from others, it's in his psychology. Anyone who lost their entire family at such a young age would strive to create their own, even if he does in it a bizarre way. He pushes people away because he doesn't want them hurt like his parents, not because he doesn't trust and thus is forced to know their every strength and weakness, devising dozens of schemes to take them down because he's totally the smartests guy in the world.

It's because when you dig down real deep into who he is, he's someone who cares deeply about his family, his friends, and ultimately everyone who swears to protect. He may sometimes act like a dick, but all he's really doing is showing how much he doesn't want to lose another person.

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	killermoth1 2009-05-03 01:35 am UTC (link)
	*everyone HE swears to protect. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	cat_13145 2009-05-03 02:09 am UTC (link)
	Could someone please post the JLA Avengers? (Puppy dog eyes) (Reply to this) (Thread)

	volksjager 2009-05-03 08:12 am UTC (link)
	Yeah I will. Its a great story. KB understood both teams SO well and knew just what friction there woul be. Green Arrow arguing over which planet got to the Earth 1 was awsome. They ahould do another one. (Reply to this) (Parent)

icon_uk
2009-05-03 05:05 am UTC (link)

what the hell kind of Batman said that ????

The kind I was a LOT more interested in reading about than the emotionally infantile control freak arsehole we got for much of the 1990's and early 2000's. the kind who trusts his colleagues and assumes they are MORE heroic than he is, rather than "I inherently don't trust anyone with superpowers and know that I cannot trust them to act heroically" Batman.

THIS is Batman...

No, that's a Batman, both are valid, but I find a Batman who can and DOES ask for help when he needs to be far more worthwhile as a character than the "I can't call in anyone to help me (Apart from a relatively new and inexperienced Robin) despite Arkham and Blackgate releasing everyone in them, because... well, because it might make me look bad" idiot we got in Knightfall.

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	volksjager 2009-05-03 03:05 pm UTC (link)
	I would like to see the pre code Batman, before said code turned the book into a cartoon. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

icon_uk
2009-05-03 03:34 pm UTC (link)

1970's and most of the 1980's Batman works for me. A human man, with failings, and flaws but you'll never find anyone more dedicated to their mission WITHOUT descending into psychosis.

A man who knows a dozen martial arts, but who can be cold cocked by a woman with a ski-pole if he doesn't suspect that she's actually working for the bad guys.

A man who was a father to his adopted son, but who, despite their occasional arguments is intensely proud of his son and doesn't care who knows it.

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	ebailey140 2009-05-05 04:09 pm UTC (link)
	I would like to see the pre code Batman, before said code turned the book into a cartoon. Actually, he was pretty much his Silver Age incarnation pretty quickly into the Golden Age, and the Joker was primarily a prankster criminal after his first few appearances. It's become something of a myth that that all came about because of the Comics Code. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	runespoor7 2009-05-03 09:45 am UTC (link)
	I can imagine the Batman in the first scan grimly and intensely demanding they give the others hope. "You're not focused enough, Robin. Do it better." (The question is, would giving others hope involve a Robin strip-tease?) But I have to admit it's hard for me to imagine Batman letting something like lack of powers prevent him from helping in a more direct way. (Reply to this) (Thread)

icon_uk
2009-05-03 10:32 am UTC (link)

But I have to admit it's hard for me to imagine Batman letting something like lack of powers prevent him from helping in a more direct way.

In this instance, the heroes have been brought to the dawn of time to fight the Anti-Monitor, who at this point is essentially a nihilistic god. The Spectre is trying to hold him and failing. Every super-being who can focus an energy blast is directing enough power at him to extinguish suns. Every being with the power of flight strength and/or invulnerability is hitting him with enough combined kinetic force to crack planets wide open. There really IS nothing Batman can add to that at that moment, and Batman is smart enough to know this, and man enough not to take it personally, that's what impresses ME here.

Now if Batman and co, heck, if Batman alone were the only hero left standing then yes, he'd be throwing everything he had at him regardless of how futile it would be (cf Nightwing being the last Titan left, but attacking Trigon with a slingshot and his explosive grenades anyway, because anything is better than nothing). Right at this point though, Batman couldn't get near enough to do any damage to the AntiMonitor anyway.

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	volksjager 2009-05-03 10:46 am UTC (link)
	Thats why I would say he would come up with the winning plan. He might tell the strong guys punch might only dent the armour. Perhaps get the heroes to use their power in conjunction with each other in unique ways to get effects. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	icon_uk 2009-05-03 11:29 am UTC (link)
	Co-ordinating large teams with powers has never been Bruce's particular talent, that's Dick's field of expertise, and at the time of CoiE he was busy offworld IIRC. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	jlroberson 2009-05-03 01:15 pm UTC (link)
	Oh yeah?" What about his Bat-Anti-Anti-Monitor Spray? Oh wait, he left that at home. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	icon_uk 2009-05-03 01:27 pm UTC (link)
	It's actually still in the Bat-copter, next to the Bat-Anti-Shark-Repellent and the Bat-Anti-Sinestro-Repellent (Reply to this) (Parent)

	volksjager 2009-05-03 03:02 pm UTC (link)
	Don't two negitives make a positive ???? LOL :) (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	freeman333 2009-05-03 04:12 pm UTC (link)
	Actually, he has two bottles, with the same label; one is a spray that works against the Anti-Monitor, the other is a spray that works against the spray that works against the Monitor. He hates it when he gets them confused. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	volksjager 2009-05-03 04:27 pm UTC (link)
	warninglable on the back says "NEVER cross the streams". (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	jlroberson 2009-05-03 05:18 pm UTC (link)
	I need to breathe to live. Yet you two are trying to kill me with torrential laughter and I do not know why. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	volksjager 2009-05-03 10:37 am UTC (link)
	Yup, he don't sit on the side lines. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	unknownscribler 2009-05-03 10:34 am UTC (link)
	So I see Bruce is making a play for blue ring now? (Reply to this) (Thread)

	volksjager 2009-05-03 10:47 am UTC (link)
	I'd like to see an elseworld where Bats takes the yellow ring. Take out Sinestro and brings his own order to the galaxy. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	volksjager 2009-05-03 11:08 am UTC (link)
	Ha. Someone just pointed out that if Bruce did get a blue ring he would have to work with Hal Jorden/GL. Now that we are back to Bataman and Superman be best friends,GJ has decided that Batman and Green Lantern didn't like each other from day one instead of only after the pharallax thing. ew, retcon politics... (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	jlroberson 2009-05-03 01:17 pm UTC (link)
	Except Johns recently had Hal talk about what great friends they were. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	volksjager 2009-05-03 03:04 pm UTC (link)
	Well if you read the said issue . Flash has to get between then to prevent full on melee. Are you reffering to the scene where the two are comparing who's parent loss is worse (?) (Reply to this) (Parent)

killermoth1
2009-05-03 04:12 pm UTC (link)

See what I don't get is when exactly was Batman the go-to guy for strategies in the JLA? Seems to me writers like to give him Brainiac level intelligence and dumb down the JLAers a bit just so Bats can actually do something. I have no problem with Bats being a really smart guy, but when the JLA, with people like Mr Terrific, Martian Manhunter and Superman, seem useless without him I get a little annoyed.

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volksjager
2009-05-03 04:31 pm UTC (link)

I think there exist a tradition that the lest powerful guy/girl physically or energywise is the smartest ,best strategist. I'm thinking Cyclops of the X-men, Robin/Nightwing of the Titans, Challenger of the Justice Machine ect. He is the piece that sees how all the other bigger pieces go together. He/she has the wider vision to see the whole.

Then again, "those tht can't DO teach, Those that can't teach...teach gym."

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	runespoor7 2009-05-03 06:06 pm UTC (link)
	That's definitely a trope. In a group of super-powered individuals, the Badass Normal almost always is the leader. They also tend to be written as more competent than they are in their own series - Batman makes mistakes in his own books, but in JLA, not so much. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	freddylloyd 2009-05-03 09:19 pm UTC (link)
	Earth-2 Robin—grown up and still seeking guidance from Batman. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	volksjager 2009-05-03 09:34 pm UTC (link)
	That's the earth 1 "robin" (tho he was Nightwing by then), Earth2 had the gray sides and the green half cowl. Its a gaffe caused by the 9 month delay in the books release.:) (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

freddylloyd
2009-05-03 10:01 pm UTC (link)

Earth-1 Robin at the start of Crisis on Infinite Earths was the first Jason Todd. He was much shorter than Batman, wore green sleeves, had those twin curls on his forehead, and used a domino mask that seemed to stay on by magic.

I know what you're saying about the Earth-2 Robin having different headgear in other stories of the decade. But in Crisis on Infinite Earths he's recognizable for long red sleeves, parted hair, and a mask that goes all the way across his face.

DC even made a special doll. At least he got pants out of the deal.

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	volksjager 2009-05-04 07:54 am UTC (link)
	Ok, Your right. :) (Reply to this) (Parent)

psychop_rex
2009-05-04 01:28 am UTC (link)

I think the key thing to remember here is that Batman has a sense of proportion - he knows when he can help, and when he can't, and most of the time it's the former, because he can do a hell of a lot, so we tend to forget that the latter comes up every now and again.
In the first scan, there is nothing Batman can do. What's he going to do? Punch the Anti-Monitor and break his fist? He can't act as the strategist; this is Gotterdamerung territory here - the end of existence at the beginning of time, with the storm and the fury raging all around. Strategy comes down to 'focus all you have at the bad guy and hope it works'. Batman knows his limits - there's nothing he can do except contribute good vibes and hope it works.
In the second, on the other hand, he's in his element - he CAN do something, he knows he can do it, and he knows they know that he can do it, so why waste time? He does it. It's a matter of knowing when his talents are suited to the situation, and when it's time to delegate.
(Incidentally, does the first scan remind anyone else of that one story where basically the entire Marvel Universe is battling Galactus? Spidey and Daredevil show up, take one look at what they're dealing with and go 'whoa - no WAY can we do anything about this'. They then settle down as spectators, and Spidey mentions what a shame it is that no one brought popcorn. It's pretty funny; someone should post it.)

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