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There was one comment I wanted to pull out from the recent Lily threads for separate discussion.
I’m glad Hwyla pointed out that Lily almost had to have been a prefect in SWM. I’d been wanting someone to bring that up.
Warning: Lily-bashing ahead. At least I can't come up with any way to have Lily look good in SWM if she's really a prefect as well as Snape's supposed best friend.
Is it credible that Lily, a scant year later chosen to be Head Girl, was NOT a prefect in SWM?
Can anyone make a case (without violently contorting) that she was not?
Yet if she was: what does that say about her behavior in SWM? It was her perfectly duty as much as Lupin’s to discipline James and Sirius—both to stop their misbehavior, to punish them, and to prevent (one hopes, although in this case probably futilely) recidivism. Why isn’t Lily in there docking house points from Gryffindor and issuing detentions?
I mean, imagine if Hermione had found Cormac McLaggen and a couple of his friends ganging up on Ron. Or Percy witnessing several Gryffindors setting on Penelope. Would either of them credibly react as Lily does?
We know what we think of Prefect Lupin’s cowardice in not stopping his friends. But at least we understand his motives.
Lily’s motives…. Is she guilty of more favoritism than Snape at his worst, unwilling to punish her own house? (At least the Slytherins, as Whitehand points out, actually make considerable effort to make sure Snape doesn’t directly see their worst misbehavior. James checked to make sure Lily was watching before he started in on Snape!)
Is she a coward like Lupin, whose girlfriends have made her aware they will ostracize her if she punishes the wrong people (two popular, rich, good-looking Gryff boys, one a Quidditch star) or takes too many house points?
Is this James’s way of getting Lily to commit publicly to engaging him one-on-one rather than prefect-to-misbehaving student?
Or is she simply too weak to enforce her authority?
I can’t come up with any way to have Lily be a prefect and not look worse than Lupin.
And I can’t come up with any plausible reason why the future Head Girl wouldn’t have been Prefect.
(Oh fine, I can so. Mary Sue Macdonald, who was Lily's superior in all conceivable and inconceivable ways, was Gryffindor prefect fifth year and a shoo-in for Head Girl in Seventh. But Mulciber, who adored her, killed her sixth year in a fit of jealous rage--you'll be happy to know DD prevented his being expelled. Alternatively, the MoM pulled her from school to serve as head of the DMLE to lead the fight against You-Know-Who. She asked (with her dying breath or from her new position of power) that her mantle be passed to her lowly friend Lily, as a symbol of hope for Muggleborns that despite their inferior blood and abilities,they too might be granted a position of power if they pleased their superiors. The End.)
Bad fanfic aside, discuss?
I’m glad Hwyla pointed out that Lily almost had to have been a prefect in SWM. I’d been wanting someone to bring that up.
Warning: Lily-bashing ahead. At least I can't come up with any way to have Lily look good in SWM if she's really a prefect as well as Snape's supposed best friend.
Is it credible that Lily, a scant year later chosen to be Head Girl, was NOT a prefect in SWM?
Can anyone make a case (without violently contorting) that she was not?
Yet if she was: what does that say about her behavior in SWM? It was her perfectly duty as much as Lupin’s to discipline James and Sirius—both to stop their misbehavior, to punish them, and to prevent (one hopes, although in this case probably futilely) recidivism. Why isn’t Lily in there docking house points from Gryffindor and issuing detentions?
I mean, imagine if Hermione had found Cormac McLaggen and a couple of his friends ganging up on Ron. Or Percy witnessing several Gryffindors setting on Penelope. Would either of them credibly react as Lily does?
We know what we think of Prefect Lupin’s cowardice in not stopping his friends. But at least we understand his motives.
Lily’s motives…. Is she guilty of more favoritism than Snape at his worst, unwilling to punish her own house? (At least the Slytherins, as Whitehand points out, actually make considerable effort to make sure Snape doesn’t directly see their worst misbehavior. James checked to make sure Lily was watching before he started in on Snape!)
Is she a coward like Lupin, whose girlfriends have made her aware they will ostracize her if she punishes the wrong people (two popular, rich, good-looking Gryff boys, one a Quidditch star) or takes too many house points?
Is this James’s way of getting Lily to commit publicly to engaging him one-on-one rather than prefect-to-misbehaving student?
Or is she simply too weak to enforce her authority?
I can’t come up with any way to have Lily be a prefect and not look worse than Lupin.
And I can’t come up with any plausible reason why the future Head Girl wouldn’t have been Prefect.
(Oh fine, I can so. Mary Sue Macdonald, who was Lily's superior in all conceivable and inconceivable ways, was Gryffindor prefect fifth year and a shoo-in for Head Girl in Seventh. But Mulciber, who adored her, killed her sixth year in a fit of jealous rage--you'll be happy to know DD prevented his being expelled. Alternatively, the MoM pulled her from school to serve as head of the DMLE to lead the fight against You-Know-Who. She asked (with her dying breath or from her new position of power) that her mantle be passed to her lowly friend Lily, as a symbol of hope for Muggleborns that despite their inferior blood and abilities,they too might be granted a position of power if they pleased their superiors. The End.)
Bad fanfic aside, discuss?
Re: divided loyalties
I get that you want to apply the incidents we see in canon to their characters as a whole, which I think is a little over-generalizing, but if you're going to, for Merlin's sake do the same for Severus.
-butterbeergirl on LJ
Re: divided loyalties
Re: divided loyalties
It's not about what "Lily and her friends consider 'dark,'" it's made pretty clear throughout the series that Dark Magic (capital "D," capital "M") is in a separate magical league than your average hex. For example, the Tickling Charm could probably be used to suffocate someone eventually, and the Memory Charm, if overused, can certainly cause lasting or at least short term damage (the Muggle Roberts at the Quidditch Cup campsite, the backfiring on Lockhart), but it is ridiculous to put either of these spells in the same category as, say, the Imperius Curse, which with only one casting puts a large amount of control in the caster's hands, and can only be used for one thing. It's not about whether Severus thinks a spell is "Dark" or not either - Dark Magic is not classified by the user, it's something inherent in spells, I think that's been made pretty clear throughout the series. While I suppose since we, through Harry's ears, were just listening to Lily say "Dark Magic" in that conversation with Severus about Mulciber and Mary McDonald, there's no way to know that she actually meant Dark Magic and not just "dark magic," as in something creepy or uncomfortable, but since we have the luxury of reading what JKR intended for us to read on the page, it says right there "Dark Magic." Classified. A standard term in the wizarding world, and one not thrown around lightly. Inherently sinister in the spell. And Severus doesn't try to deny it.
So yes, any hex that is considered Dark Magic is inherently worse than one that isn't. It's about the negative energy drawn from the caster. It's not that non-Dark spells can't be used for harm - they certainly can! That's all people use in, for instance, the dueling scenes we see. But it's ridiculous to argue that Lily thinking something is creepy amounts to it being "dark," and therefore evil, when it's pretty well-established in canon that Dark Magic is something set in stone.
-butterbeergirl on LJ
Re: divided loyalties
I'm saying do the same for Severus. Sev turns a blind eye or possibly at the worst observes and does not stop in his companions' hexing (with a Dark Magic spell - which thrives on evil energy in the caster and causes lasting psychological and magical damage in the victim) of another student, and openly associates with people who plan to join a movement centered around the advent of Dark Magic, and a belief system that Lily, someone who is supposed to be his friend, is inherently inferior. Why don't you cast the same associative judgments on him? That's the whole point of this story, emotions like hurt and fear dominating Lily's thought process and leading her to end the friendship, and emotions like a sense of betrayal and strong jealousy dominating Severus's and eventually giving him the final push down a path in which he had already taken an interest, long before SWM.
-butterbeergirl on LJ
Re: divided loyalties
Wrong. Severus wasn't even there when Mulciber attempted whatever it was. Lily asks if he had heard about it. He does condone the action after the fact. And I disagree with you that because it was Dark magic it causes lasting psychological and magical damage to the victim, this is *not* canon. For instance the Sectumsempra Harry cast on Draco was completely healed by a counterspell and the application of dittany. The Sectumsempra Severus cast on James very likely left no lasting damage because we know Harry saw pictures of James as an adult and he never made any connection between what he saw in SWM and remembering his father had a scar that could have been explained by Severus' spell.
and openly associates with people who plan to join a movement centered around the advent of Dark Magic
Nothing wrong with that. Dark Magic is the Potterverse equivalent of modern physics. Bill Weasley knows and applies Dark Magic in his work. Albus Dumbledore couldn't have figured out the meaning of Lily's sacrificial protection and couldn't have added another protection on top of it without knowing Dark Magic. Nor could he have figured out that Riddle's use of Harry's blood made Harry unkillable as long as Riddle had said body without knowing Dark Magic. Knowledge and dabbling in Dark Magic is exciting, powerful and can be used for good or bad purposes, depending on the situation. Like all magic, it requires caution and good judgment.
Nor do we know if there was anything in Lily's speculations regarding his or his friends' plans *at that moment*. Eventually they did join in, but we do not know when they decided to do so.
and a belief system that Lily, someone who is supposed to be his friend, is inherently inferior.
While this is a reason for Lily to object to the Death Eaters, my observation of the Wizarding World and its attitude to Muggles I think no wizarding-raised person really believes in true equality of Muggle-borns. But that is a discussion better left for a different time. I agree that a 16 year old wouldn't be able to understand that kind of subtlety, so for Lily it would make a difference. (I think Hermione of the epilogue should be able to realize it and to realize how much she herself has bought into it in her younger years - if she allows herself the retrospection.)
Re: divided loyalties
BTW Terri makes the argument that Levicorpus is Dark because it requires a special spell to reverse its effects. Only those who mistakenly equate dark with evil mistake it for a non-Dark spell because it doesn't appear 'evil'.
And I disagree that it is ridiculous to put Memory Charms and Confundus in the same category as the Imperius Curse. They are all equal forms of mind-rape that can be used for the same purpose. (As are love potions and other emotion/mind-controlling potions.)
Re: divided loyalties
Hmm... I'll go through this line by line, because there are a lot of ideas in that one sentence.
We know that she used the term "Dark Magic,"
Yes.
and we while the specific supernatural or whatever you call it parameters are never defined,
I'm not sure what you mean -- do you just mean that we aren't given a specific system for classifying magic as Dark or not? In that case, I agree.
we tend to know that Dark Magic refers to a spell that requires some dark or negative energy from the caster
Bellatrix says this about the Cruciatus. Some people say she's talking about all three Unforgivables; some don't. If you want to extend this to Dark Magic in general, you *can*, but that isn't stated outright in the text.
No more than the speculations that Terri's been coming up with are stated outright in the text, of course. All of these various possibilities are *interesting*, including the one you're stating here. But none of them are explicitly stated as true in the text.
and that destroys part of them when they cast it
Could you provide a quote for this one? I'm not sure what you're referring to. I mean, I'm sure that casting the Cruciatus doesn't do wonders for the caster's personality, but that's true of non-magical torture, too. But I don't think that the text talks about this.
Unless you're talking about murder splitting the soul? But that's specific to murder, not Dark Magic that doesn't kill, and it isn't about killing with *magic*, it's about murder, however you do it. That doesn't sound like what you're talking about, but I can't think of what you are referring to, at the moment.
and can only be used to harm.
Again, could you provide a quote? The Cruciatus and AK can only harm, of course, but I can't think of anywhere in the books where someone says that Dark Magic in general can only be used to harm.
Even the Imperius *could* be used to restrain someone in a situation where Stunning them could be a problem. I'm basing this on a real-life incident where the police used a stun gun on someone on the roof of a building, threatening to jump or something similar. (He was only a danger to himself.) Using the stun gun knocked him out... causing him to fall off the roof. Something like the Imperius could have gotten him away safely.
Of course, you can argue that the police wouldn't have had the right to override his free will with something like the Imperius, but stunning him overrode his free will just as thoroughly.
I'm not saying that the Imperius is a *good* spell, by any means, but there are situations where a very careful, *restrained* use of the spell might actually do good. And that's an Unforgivable, which is definitely among the spells classified as Dark Magic.
Lynn
Re: divided loyalties
Now, I think also what tends to go on with this is that we automatically assume on some level that an author wishing to convey a character as being a certain way will make sure to give us "screen time" of a character acting in that way, and that when we have only glimpses of a character (rather than a fuller portrayal as with Severus) we tend to assume that we are seeing the character at "default," in their normal personality, most of the time. That is, that we should not be *expected* to speculate that the character really is rather different than how they appear to be (than the evidence the author chooses to give us suggests), and find excuses for why the character was behaving in that way in every scene we get. Which, I feel, is what we are being asked to do if we are supposed to see Lily as really a close friend of Severus and dearly caring about his wellbeing and everything, when her presentation in the scenes JKR chooses to show us are so ambiguous on that front that many people don't find evidence of a real friendship at all. If you want to read her that way, speculation included, that's fine. But many of us don't find support for that view in canon - when we *do* find support for our views of Severus by comparing the many different instances we see him in canon.
With Severus, we don't have to take any particular scene as "default" because we are shown enough of him to have a slightly more nuanced picture of him in which to place those scenes. With Lily, we don't have enough for such a nuanced picture and so any nuancing of those incidents is going to be *pure speculation* - which some of us are happy with and some are not.