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There was one comment I wanted to pull out from the recent Lily threads for separate discussion.
I’m glad Hwyla pointed out that Lily almost had to have been a prefect in SWM. I’d been wanting someone to bring that up.
Warning: Lily-bashing ahead. At least I can't come up with any way to have Lily look good in SWM if she's really a prefect as well as Snape's supposed best friend.
Is it credible that Lily, a scant year later chosen to be Head Girl, was NOT a prefect in SWM?
Can anyone make a case (without violently contorting) that she was not?
Yet if she was: what does that say about her behavior in SWM? It was her perfectly duty as much as Lupin’s to discipline James and Sirius—both to stop their misbehavior, to punish them, and to prevent (one hopes, although in this case probably futilely) recidivism. Why isn’t Lily in there docking house points from Gryffindor and issuing detentions?
I mean, imagine if Hermione had found Cormac McLaggen and a couple of his friends ganging up on Ron. Or Percy witnessing several Gryffindors setting on Penelope. Would either of them credibly react as Lily does?
We know what we think of Prefect Lupin’s cowardice in not stopping his friends. But at least we understand his motives.
Lily’s motives…. Is she guilty of more favoritism than Snape at his worst, unwilling to punish her own house? (At least the Slytherins, as Whitehand points out, actually make considerable effort to make sure Snape doesn’t directly see their worst misbehavior. James checked to make sure Lily was watching before he started in on Snape!)
Is she a coward like Lupin, whose girlfriends have made her aware they will ostracize her if she punishes the wrong people (two popular, rich, good-looking Gryff boys, one a Quidditch star) or takes too many house points?
Is this James’s way of getting Lily to commit publicly to engaging him one-on-one rather than prefect-to-misbehaving student?
Or is she simply too weak to enforce her authority?
I can’t come up with any way to have Lily be a prefect and not look worse than Lupin.
And I can’t come up with any plausible reason why the future Head Girl wouldn’t have been Prefect.
(Oh fine, I can so. Mary Sue Macdonald, who was Lily's superior in all conceivable and inconceivable ways, was Gryffindor prefect fifth year and a shoo-in for Head Girl in Seventh. But Mulciber, who adored her, killed her sixth year in a fit of jealous rage--you'll be happy to know DD prevented his being expelled. Alternatively, the MoM pulled her from school to serve as head of the DMLE to lead the fight against You-Know-Who. She asked (with her dying breath or from her new position of power) that her mantle be passed to her lowly friend Lily, as a symbol of hope for Muggleborns that despite their inferior blood and abilities,they too might be granted a position of power if they pleased their superiors. The End.)
Bad fanfic aside, discuss?
I’m glad Hwyla pointed out that Lily almost had to have been a prefect in SWM. I’d been wanting someone to bring that up.
Warning: Lily-bashing ahead. At least I can't come up with any way to have Lily look good in SWM if she's really a prefect as well as Snape's supposed best friend.
Is it credible that Lily, a scant year later chosen to be Head Girl, was NOT a prefect in SWM?
Can anyone make a case (without violently contorting) that she was not?
Yet if she was: what does that say about her behavior in SWM? It was her perfectly duty as much as Lupin’s to discipline James and Sirius—both to stop their misbehavior, to punish them, and to prevent (one hopes, although in this case probably futilely) recidivism. Why isn’t Lily in there docking house points from Gryffindor and issuing detentions?
I mean, imagine if Hermione had found Cormac McLaggen and a couple of his friends ganging up on Ron. Or Percy witnessing several Gryffindors setting on Penelope. Would either of them credibly react as Lily does?
We know what we think of Prefect Lupin’s cowardice in not stopping his friends. But at least we understand his motives.
Lily’s motives…. Is she guilty of more favoritism than Snape at his worst, unwilling to punish her own house? (At least the Slytherins, as Whitehand points out, actually make considerable effort to make sure Snape doesn’t directly see their worst misbehavior. James checked to make sure Lily was watching before he started in on Snape!)
Is she a coward like Lupin, whose girlfriends have made her aware they will ostracize her if she punishes the wrong people (two popular, rich, good-looking Gryff boys, one a Quidditch star) or takes too many house points?
Is this James’s way of getting Lily to commit publicly to engaging him one-on-one rather than prefect-to-misbehaving student?
Or is she simply too weak to enforce her authority?
I can’t come up with any way to have Lily be a prefect and not look worse than Lupin.
And I can’t come up with any plausible reason why the future Head Girl wouldn’t have been Prefect.
(Oh fine, I can so. Mary Sue Macdonald, who was Lily's superior in all conceivable and inconceivable ways, was Gryffindor prefect fifth year and a shoo-in for Head Girl in Seventh. But Mulciber, who adored her, killed her sixth year in a fit of jealous rage--you'll be happy to know DD prevented his being expelled. Alternatively, the MoM pulled her from school to serve as head of the DMLE to lead the fight against You-Know-Who. She asked (with her dying breath or from her new position of power) that her mantle be passed to her lowly friend Lily, as a symbol of hope for Muggleborns that despite their inferior blood and abilities,they too might be granted a position of power if they pleased their superiors. The End.)
Bad fanfic aside, discuss?
Just one small thing-
Are you an introvert yourself? I always come out as such, though not strongly so, and I can tell you this is absolutely wrong. Introverts are often quite sociable in small groups; they like, want and need friends just as much as extroverts. They are, perhaps, likely to have only a few friends to whom they are extremely close. The loss of such a friend is a real blow. This would be especially true of Severus because it's clear that Lily was his oldest friend, and possibly his truest.
Summing up - Introverts need people, too. They need them just as much as extroverts, and possibly more. But they relate to them differently, and, unlike extroverts, need time alone.
Re: Just one small thing-
Also, wrt to Severus here: it's not just the 'being alone' thing, it's the *actively being shunned by others* thing. Which is a slightly different kettle of fish of course.
Re: Just one small thing-
Also, wrt to Severus here: it's not just the 'being alone' thing, it's the *actively being shunned by others* thing. Which is a slightly different kettle of fish of course.
I really think I must be very, very introverted (maybe not so many people, even in the Introvert camp, are quite so skewed as I am), because in school, if I had 1 good friend, I was good. Well, good enough. The rest could shun me. And they did. (I was even bullied regularly, during my pariah-dom. So I feel like I can really identify with Severus's situation.) It sucked, but it wasn't impossible to deal with. Boy-howdy, did it suck though. But it wasn't totally and completely terrible with at least 1 good friend. When I had zero friends...ooh, that was bad. I survived that period, but it was the worst.
I do see where you're coming from now. My own experience colors my view, so my questions are: Do you think that being shunned to that increased degree would have been unliviable for Severus? Would it have broken him to the point that he might as well have stuck with Mulciber and crew and gave up Lily? Or was giving up either one so equally bad, he couldn't choose?
PS: My deepest apologies for any misunderstanding on the whole introvert issue.
Re: Just one small thing-
Sure, I don't think he'd commit suicide if he was suddenly shunned - but it would be even more hellish than his current situation, and he would need Lily even more than he already does. And he is already questioning if she is still his friend.
Re: Just one small thing-
In my view, I don't think Lily understands the chain reaction that Severus's rejection of Mulciber (and whoever else is considered to be on par with him) will have. I don't think she understands how bad it could/will get, nor that he will have more trouble than friend loss. I don't think she has a clue that the entire House might turn against him. She's not thought it all the way through, or she's rather naive about it, or both, I think.
but it would be even more hellish than his current situation, and he would need Lily even more than he already does. And he is already questioning if she is still his friend.
I totally agree. He would need reason to believe that he had, or would have, Lily firmly in his camp. ...This is a job for fanfic! *ba-da da-da-da!*
Re: Just one small thing-
I don't think I explained myself very well, is what happened. ^_^; My emphasis is on the *such* part of such a terrible fate. It would be a bad fate. A sucky fate. Even a terrible fate. (I've lived through almost that very same thing...except I started out with zero friends at school and moved up to one, and then three at maximum. Whereas Severus started out with one, gained more in his House, and then would have dropped back to one under the Lily-path theory.) It wouldn't be the end of the world, imo. It would be livable, if highly unpleasant. I was a pariah in middle school (I was the weird kid that almost nobody gets, and I refused to 'play the game' to be popular.) I had one friend for a year before I got two more. I was happy having that one friend. That one friend made it bearable. Two more was even more bearable. Not that it didn't still suck like a sucky thing, to be the pariah.
They are, perhaps, likely to have only a few friends to whom they are extremely close. The loss of such a friend is a real blow. This would be especially true of Severus because it's clear that Lily was his oldest friend, and possibly his truest.
Yes, this is the primary reason why I think it would 'not be *such* a terrible fate' for Severus to sacrifice the other (less deep) friendships to hang on to Lily. Friendship-wise, I believe the loss of Lily was more of a blow than losing Mulciber and company would have been. Even the loss of Lily was livable, but I think it sucked way more, IMHO.
My deepest apologies for the misunderstanding. As a fellow introvert, I know that we like, want, and need friends. I have noticed that I don't like, want, or need *as many* friends as my extroverted associates. Nor do I need company near as often, and nor does it tend to give me energy. (I need to recharge from company, with alone time. I need to recharge less from contact with one of my closest friends and family, but still eventually a recharging needs to be done.) That's why I like socializing on the net so much...it's like being alone and yet social at the same time. At least for me, anyway.
Hopefully I've managed to extract that foot and explain myself better this time? *gives sad doe eyes*
Re: Just one small thing-
But, actually, I don't think Rowling has thought through her world all that well - she is a genius, and extremely inventive, but she doesn't seem aware of the implications of things, IMHO. Consider: this is a school in which children are taught to alter their appearance (eventually) through transfiguration. It's a world in which kids can buy mind-altering drugs in joke shops! A livejournaller called cmwinters had a hard look at this and wrote a fic (truly dark and horrible) about the games some of the Slytherins might have been playing with Lily and her reputation using Polyjuice and Imperio, among other nasty tricks. She had Sev yelling "Mudblood" in order to protect Lily, because the other Slytherins were targeting her specifically for being his friend. Which - makes sense, actually, given how protective Severus is generally, and how devoted to Lily. Not canon, but it does make sense.
Cmwinters' theory, of course, is just that - a theory. What is canon is that Sev had to live in the Slytherin dorm. He had to sleep there. And Lucius, his patron/protector, was long gone. For him to have cut himself off from his Slytherin friends would have made his life a living hell. He wouldn't have a single place in Hogwarts where he was safe from attack, and would have only one defender. And - we never, after the train scene, see Lily defending Sev. She's usually attacking him for something. (No, she doesn't defend him in SWM. Not the way I would expect someone to defend her "best friend". That's my problem with her there.) Also, as others, have pointed out, isolating someone from their friends is a classic abusive technique. That's what Lily tires to do, and it might well have caused Sev to hear some warning bells. I'm not claiming - not at all - that Lily actually is abusive to Sev, but her behavior is often borderline, and he might well reject her warnings, in part, because he'd seen a similar pattern with his parents. Because, especially after DH, Severus comes across as an abuse victim. He always did, to me.
Sorry for the length, and I'm afraid I'm way off track! I do understand you now.
Re: Just one small thing-
No problem! ;) *is relieved*
And yeah, I shudder to think what would happen at Hogwarts if Hogwarts were real! Yikes!
For him to have cut himself off from his Slytherin friends would have made his life a living hell.
Even given my interpretation, this is something I'll be dealing with in the Snily fic I'm working on. I'm thinking he would have to do something to scare the crap out of his fellow Slytherins, to survive. Something that would intimidate them enough, that they wouldn't mess with him (or wouldn't try it very often, at least). (Hmm, I probably should have mentioned that in previous discussions, as part of my theory that it would be survivable. Oops.)
Re: Just one small thing-
Re: Just one small thing-
If you aren't planning on reading it (or don't care about being spoiled), highlight the text below in brackets, and I'll spill...
*[Sectumsempra. He can do serious scary damage with it (non-verbally and very quickly), and yet heal it completely enough, so that whoever went up to the Hospital Wing for dittany, wouldn't attract an investigation. (Also, Madam Pomfrey is known for not asking questions.) There would be no need for anyone but the Slytherins to know what really happened, as long as the incident happens in the Slytherin common room. If Lily did find out, well, my Lily would be concerned and worried about the use of Dark Magic, but if it was in self defense and Mulciber (or whoever) did something suitably heinous to Severus to provoke it, she'd accept it. Don't worry, there will be no maiming or permanent damage of Severus...but it might be an illegal spell that is cast on him.
Note: I believe that Severus cast Sectumsempra on James exactly as he intended in SWM, so I think he's capable of going all out with it, if he wants. He can do a lot or a little damage with it, I reckon.
Note2: I figure that none of the Slytherins would be willing to kill Severus (they don't want to be expelled and none of them are killers yet). I figure if he threatened to 'eviscerate them good and not heal them next time, if they attacked him again', then they'd leave him alone physically. Severus would still take precautions and be wary, of course.]*
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(nb if you're seeing this in email notification, I've replaced the opening angle brackets in the explanation with the "&" entity code so IJ won't actually try to parse them as HTML as in the sample, but obviously they should be brackets)