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"Where do Vanished objects go?"
"Into nonbeing, which is to say, everything."
In their 5th year Harry and his classmates learn to Vanish living beings - first snails, then mice. While Vanishing a mammal is difficult and requires more concentration than Vanishing an invertebrate it is still within grasp of the general trained wizard. And what happens to the mouse? It ceases to exist. From McGonagall's reply to the Ravenclaw common room question, it seems to be an irreversible transition. Does this mean that with just a bit more concentration anyone with E or higher on their Transfiguration OWL knows how to magically kill a human being? How is Vanishing different from AK (apart from not leaving a body behind)? Why aren't the students warned against doing it the way Crouch Jr warns them of a mandatory life sentence for performing Unforgivables on human beings?
"Into nonbeing, which is to say, everything."
In their 5th year Harry and his classmates learn to Vanish living beings - first snails, then mice. While Vanishing a mammal is difficult and requires more concentration than Vanishing an invertebrate it is still within grasp of the general trained wizard. And what happens to the mouse? It ceases to exist. From McGonagall's reply to the Ravenclaw common room question, it seems to be an irreversible transition. Does this mean that with just a bit more concentration anyone with E or higher on their Transfiguration OWL knows how to magically kill a human being? How is Vanishing different from AK (apart from not leaving a body behind)? Why aren't the students warned against doing it the way Crouch Jr warns them of a mandatory life sentence for performing Unforgivables on human beings?
Until DH and the Ravenclaw door question, I had always assumed that Vanished objects could just be un-Vanished. In my own fic (because Vanishing is so useful), I've chosen to write as if McG's answer to the door isn't literal, but just intended as philosophical windiness b/c that's what the Door requires. But of course, it's just another example of JKR not having a coherent sense of her universe from book to book and letting the plot or joke demands of the moment determine a throw-away detail that would have real consequences in her world if she stopped to think about it.
This is one of the things about HP that really bugs me as a fan of fantasy fiction - the utter shoddiness and un-thought-throughness of the Potterverse, despite all the charming little details. It's like being invited into a richly-decorated parlour for a fancy tea and discovering that the cups are plastic and the whole room is a shallow and hasty cardboard-and-tape set. That starts to fall down halfway through.
IMHO the entire idea of having a nearly-separate, isolated world run almost entirely by and for people for whom natural laws (like physics,etc.) work completely differently is not thought through nearly enough by JKR.
For instance: take the Tongue-Tying curse. The HPL gives the essential description as: "Binds the target's tongue to keep him or her from talking about some specific subject." Now, if such a curse exists and is known and usable (and we see that it is)...WHAT ON EARTH is up with Severus' little double-agent role? Why wouldn't one or both of his masters 1) cast it on him to prevent him giving away true, useful information, and/or 2) assume that the other has cast it on him and so he is INCAPABLE of revealing true, useful information? It's pointless to have a human spy under such circumstances, and once you figure that out the only way you can continue to suspend disbelief and enjoy the story as given is to attribute a phenomenal level of stupidity to Dumbles, Voldemort, and all of their followers who know or suspect Sev's role (to not use or suggest the curse).
Unfortunately, assuming utter idiocy on the part of the characters seems to be about the only way to make sense of half the story as given. Sigh.
Oh, definitely. Your Tongue-Tying curse example is a perfect one, and there are any number of others. I read a lot of speculative fiction, too, and one of my usual demands is that the given universe display an internal coherence. Set up any world you want, authors -- but then make it function according to its own laws. I hate when people dismiss inconsistencies by saying, "well, but it's fantasy" (and then looking at me with concern, as if they suspect me of believing it's literal) -- as if writing fantasy / speculation absolves an author of the need for logic or plausilbiity within the framework of the universe that s/he set up. I had some similar problems with City of Ember, which took a fascinating premise for a speculative world and then too often violated its own tenets and psychology.
JKR violates not just her magical universe, but character consistency, too. One of the things that's always bothered me about McGonagall, for instance, is her cruel punishment of Neville after he loses the Gryffindor passwords in PoA. It doesn't fit with much of her character before or after (she may be "irascible and inflexible," as Harry thinks, but she's usually touted as "fair" and generally honorable). The cruelty is gratuitous -- surely JKR could have come up with another plausible reason for Neville to be in the corridor and a more consistent way of indicating McG's fear and anger re: Sirius. It seems like just another throw-away, done for momentary effect only.
With Snape, we often get a similar effect of inconsistency, but achieved in the opposite fashion: he's made to seem cruel when he isn't. His objections to Lupin being allowed to teach are well-founded in many ways, but they're presented as further evidence of his perfidy and general untrustworthiness.
Originally I thought that that was a reading that worked logically, but then I thought about it more and found that it wasn't quite working for me. That explanation only works if you have both masters SIMULTANEOUSLY accepting him as a double-agent from the get-go - because otherwise the one master would have no reason to believe that the other had NOT put the curse on him. And that (at least to me) is not clear in canon, due to JKR's vagueness.
If, for example, Voldie sent him in with the intention of having him spy, but without the idea that he would pretend to be Dumbles' agent (as seems likely from his ordering Severus into the DADA post - you can't tell me he didn't expect useful info from that as well as the fulfillment of another, 1-year mission) he would likely have put the curse on Sev to prevent him (purposefully or accidentally) sharing anything of importance. And also, why would he have serious reason to expect that Dumbles would not put the curse on any new hire coming in with a past as shady as Severus,' just as a precaution? (Dumbles might not DO it, but why would Voldie not EXPECT him to do it?)
That is, the lack of the Tongue-Tying curse on Sev works ONCE you as the reader are ALREADY in that situation with him; it's the getting there without it that I find problematic. (Hope that makes sense?)
Late 1979 until spring 1980: Prophecy. On that night Severus was merely hanging out at The Hog's Head. If there was a plan for him to apply for the DADA job it was derailed by the prophecy.
Late 1980 or early 1981: Hilltop meeting.
Summer 1981: Voldemort sending Severus to apply for DADA and serve as his spy.
Since by the time of the 1981 interview Voldemort might have thought Dumbledore might have already suspected Severus, he could have tried sending him under the cover of repentant DE, not knowing he already repented.
I was using a different timeline, in which he would have failed the DADA interview before the hilltop, sometime in 1980. We know he was hired to teach Potions in 1981, so presumably either directly after the hilltop meeting, or sometime between then and Fall 1981, Dumbles managed to 'encourage' Slughorn to retire and filled the post with Severus so as to 1) have an excuse to be in contact with him and 2) to make him look better in Voldemort's eyes (getting a post at Hogwarts, even if it's not DADA). I find the convenient timing of an opening other than DADA, in an area of specialization for Severus, a little TOO convenient otherwise.
But either works. JKR's not exactly clear on the subject.
As it turned out, both Dumbledore and Voldmeort had a reason to want Severus at Hogwarts in September 1981. Dumbledore to watch over him, meet with him etc and Voldemort to implement the later stages of the take-over plan that would have gone into effect had he been successful at killing Harry. So Dumbledore convinced Slughorn to retire and Voldemort sent Severus to interview. And Dumbledore probably anticipated Voldmeort sending Severus to teach/spy/kill in any case.
In SpinnersEnd, Snape (more or less) marks that as the beginning of his spying for Voldy, by telling Bella that he had 16 years of info to give Voldy when he returned.
Then we also have Sybill complaining about how 'pushy' he was and that he was apparently looking for a job when he overheard the prophecy.
The way I see it, June is really too late to get the job. Albus knew by then the job was cursed and probably began interviewing long before the end of a school year. And Snape probably used the excuse of reminding Albus that he was available for work to explain why he was waiting just outside the door of another interview (Sybill's). How else to explain that Sybill knew he was looking for employment?
So, he was too late for DADA in '79-'80. Sybill hears him remind Albus that he's still hoping for the DADA job AFTER '79-'80 has started (probably just to look less like he's eavesdropping). Snape 'apparently' runs to Albus in late winter/early spring '80 (I know not everyone agrees with me on this date, but I find it much more plausible that he turned while Lily was pregnant than when Harry was 7 or 8 months old and the book text does not state explicitly that Harry had already been born) and then he finally gets the potions job in '81-'82 after he has worked with Albus for over a year as a spy. -- Hwyla
He certainly wasn't going to be interviewed at The Hog's Head.
And once he overheard the prophecy all plans had to be revised.
As I said, Voldmort may have sent Severus to interview for the '79-'80 school year, but that interview never took place. The only time Severus actually did interview for a teaching job was for the '81-'82 year, and as Ministry records show he applied for DADA but was hired for Potions.
I agree that he wasn't actually at the Hog's Head for an interview.
It is after the school year has begun - and from my figuring, the very same school year that he had tried to get a position (but had apparently been too late). It makes very good sense that IF one has applied for a job and one still HOPES to be considered for that job then when one happens to see the person responsible for hiring, one would go speak with him and remind him that one is still interested - especially since it is only a few months later.
I do not believe that is actually what Snape WAS doing. He was obviously eavesdropping. After all, Voldy ordered him to spy on Albus and the man has just gone to an upstairs room with a young woman. But it is a reasonable excuse for him to try when he was caught. Especially since Sybil comes away with the impression that he was looking for a job, but was also very 'pushing' and 'thrusting'.
Since she was not aware that Snape was spying AND she seems to have found him very forceful in his methods of acquiring a job, then it sounds to me as if she thought his sudden appearance in the middle of her successful interview was the result of his listening in for tips on how to succeed himself. We know he was there. We're pretty sure he must have tried SOME kind of explanation, after all, there's no indication that Voldy ever told him that he could quit spying on Albus - at least not at that time.
There is no reason to suppose that his wanting 'tips' means that he has not yet interviewed. It just as easily means he had an unsuccessful interview but not so unsuccessful that it was implied he would never be hired. By that point in time, it should have been obvious to any Hogwarts student that there was always a new DADA teacher every year. Therefore, just being turned down because a teacher had already been hired, doesn't mean one cannot reapply next year.
After all, Snape apparently does exactly that every year (as Ministry records show). That does not mean that the Ministry necessarily keeps track of every applicant. Dolores has Ministry info on every TEACHER and as a teacher they keep track of his repeated application for DADA. That doesn't automatically mean they keep track of every applicant for the job. -- Hwyla
I place the prophecy as late as spring 1980 but could have been several months earlier. I don't see a need to place it particularly early. In fact, since I believe the war escalated sometime around early 1979 (causing the drop in wizarding birth rate and increasing dissatisfaction with the Ministry, leading to the appointment of Milicent Bagnold as Minister in 1980 and the arrival of Crouch to the top of DMLE - and the enactment of his extreme policies). With this in mind I think the earliest Voldmeort would be seeking to land a DADA teacher as a spy would be for the '80-'81 year, but he might have waited even longer to really bring the Ministry to its knees.
I find it plausible that Severus wasn't even looking for a teaching job for the '80-'81 year. I also find it plausible that he was but his interview was scheduled for a later time (say a few days later) and the prophecy made the whole thing moot. Of course he may have had an interview that failed a few weeks earlier but I don't see why that would be a necessary interpretation. Definitely not for the '79-'80 year. Not when he only left school in June '78. What credentials did he have?
The '16 years of information on Dumbledore' is obviously a mistake because whatever information Severus had on Dumbledore before Godric's Hollow was already reported to Voldemort, there was no need to report it again after Voldmeort's return. (Though if Dumbledore and Severus came up with some scheme involving disinformation from the early days Severus could have 'remembered' to report it to the returned Voldemort.)
Just to clarify more: After reviewing some more of my timelines, I have decided to place Kreacher's trip to the cave during Christmas break of '78. This allows Regulus to be at home to get Kreacher as well as to spend a few weeks researching Horcruxes at home and to die in January '79. Voldemort's increased confidence in his immortality after having placed Slytherin's locket in such a well protected location would then be the reason to increase the intensity of his attacks. This timing also fits with Regulus' idealism at the time of his recruitment - he really had reason to believe he wasn't joining a bunch of mass murderers.
What do you make of Sirius' claim in June 1994 that Voldemort has been hiding for 15 years? (You can reply on this point there as well.)