InsaneJournal

Tweak says, "It's for my prince."

Doop (xdoop) wrote in scans_daily,
@ 2009-09-16 20:05:00

Current mood:	tired
Entry tags:	char: batgirl/oracle/barbara gordon, char: spoiler/robin/batgirl/steph brown, publisher: dc comics, title: batgirl

Batgirl #2

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daningram
2009-09-17 01:16 am UTC (link)

Well then, I'd have to ask what you've seen ;)

I mean in this issue, she caused a gas tank to explode, catching one guy. He would be chunks were it not for plot armor.

I don't think training would help Steph, really. It's a sad fact that some people just *don't* improve, don't change and cannot be better than they are. Spoiler really strikes me as one of those people. I mean, being a crime fighter in Gotham oughta be hard than putting on a funky outfit and taking gymnastics after school.

The person ought to be exception in some way, and Steph simply isn't. Nothing wrong with that, but she should really be out of her league.

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	nevermore999 2009-09-17 01:27 am UTC (link)
	Clearly she is going to improve, seeing as this is her title and all. And in the preview, it's pretty clear she caused the tank to explode on purpose. In the Bat-universe, that just doesn't kill people. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

daningram
2009-09-17 01:31 am UTC (link)

Even if she does, I can't blame Babs for not waiting before trying to make her retire. Spoiler's been in the game for years, was on the scene before Cass and will probably only start to improve and show some basic ability after Babs starts mentoring her.

Everyone acts like Babs is being a bitch, but it's not at all hard to see why she's doing what she's doing, and why she's right.

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jlbarnett
2009-09-17 01:33 am UTC (link)

I'm sorry but plot armor counts. It's common enough that the stuff where the armor doesn't show up to teach some hero a "lesson" that sticks out.

How's Tim exceptional? I know he's smart but he constantly faces his opponents in physical combat. And if it's cause he trained with Lady Shiva, well start getting others training. If Steph spent half the time she spent listening to people telling her to stop improving instead she'd be as good as anyone.

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daningram
2009-09-17 01:39 am UTC (link)

Tim is exceptional because he's wise beyond his years. He figured out who Batman and Robin were, helped Dick solve a mystery and became Robin out of his own sense of justice than any trauma. He's also good at applying his intelligence to combat, as shown when he beat Lady Shiva and King Snake.

In comparison, Steph won't listen to anyone who annoys her, and in over a decade in publishing I don't think she's beaten a single big threat by herself without major help (though I may be wrong). Even Tim, who has the least combat training of all, faced and overcame King Snake, Lady Shiva (in a sparring match) and KGBeast (when he was still something of a threat), to say nothing of the times when he's faced off against Joker, Two-Face, etc.

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	xdoop 2009-09-17 01:40 am UTC (link)
	Didn't she defeat that Shiva disciple in Batgirl #26? (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	daningram 2009-09-17 01:42 am UTC (link)
	With Ghost Cass' help, it seemed. Honestly, IMO, Steph has never really stepped up and out as a crimefighter. And she's had years! I think doubts about her ability are justified. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	nevermore999 2009-09-17 01:51 am UTC (link)
	Ghost Cass...wasn't real. It was a personification of both her doubts and her motivation. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	daningram 2009-09-17 02:01 am UTC (link)
	Or Astral projection ;) The point is, Steph didn't really win the fights on her. She allowed her doubts to overcome her and needed outside motivation in a life or death situation. And to date, it was the biggest solo victory for her. Her track record is simply uninspired, it shouldn't be hard to see why no one has much faith in her ability despite years in action. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	jlbarnett 2009-09-17 01:42 am UTC (link)
	Secret tried to kill her once. She handled herself fine facing a foe she really couldn't touch until Tim talked her down. (Reply to this) (Parent)

reshelved
2009-09-19 04:03 am UTC (link)

Sorry, what? If you don't like her, fine, but your reasoning is biased by your dislike. In my world sneaking out at night into high-crime areas to photograph vigilantes is in no way a more mature act than dressing up to try to foil your dad's criminal plans. Lemme show you how your bias looks by showing you how Tim reads to me, with my bias: honestly, IMO, Tim became Robin to help out some dudes he'd idolised since he was practically in diapers. He imprinted on Dick because of personal trauma. He continues being Robin because he doesn't feel they'd like him if he weren't efficient and useful. He's intelligent and he knows how to put up a logical façade, but unprocessed emotions drive him.

He is an exceptional kid: exceptionally sneaky. Even as a little boy, he managed to tail Batman without being noticed. He can keep secrets and change his persona based on his surroundings, which is very useful in their line of work. But, man, he is not wise beyond his years. Emotionally, I think he would struggle to be at the same level as his peers - if he were to go beyond the mission at hand. (Like Bruce, he has pretty good superficial/goal-driven social skills.)

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daningram
2009-09-20 03:18 pm UTC (link)

It's not bias, simply recognizing facts.

Tim is exceptionally intelligent, both in terms of technical ability and emotionally. When his parents were held hostage, he stayed behind and allowed Batman to rescue them. When King Snake came to Gotham for a rematch, Robin allowed Batman to handle it n combat. He became Robin feeling that Batman needed a partner to balance him out, and retired from the rle fairly convincingly until War Games came around.

When he's applied his intelligence in combat, he's beaten King Snake (second most dangerous martial artist), KGBeast and Shiva in a sparring match. He's defied Batman's orders to save him from Scarecrow too.

Unfortunately for Spoiler, for almost her entire career, she served as a foil to show the abilities of others. Tim's good choices outweigh hers by miles. Yes, Tim's placed himself at risk, but he's also never overestimated his ability or leapt without looking.

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