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Tweak says, "BLADE RUNNER 2049 BEST PICTURE"

cyberghostface (cyberghostface) wrote in scans_daily,
@ 2009-08-07 13:02:00

Entry tags:

char: dr. doom/victor von doom, char: mr. fantastic/reed richards, char: the thing/ben grimm, event: ultimatum

Ultimatum: Fantastic Four Requiem

One of the more controversial scenes in Ultimatum was the Thing crushing Dr. Doom's head. A scene from Requiem shows how Ben reached that decision.

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	mullon 2009-08-07 05:13 pm UTC (link)
	Well, I guess that makes a bit more sense. But it just so weird on top of all the other deaths in that one issue. (Reply to this)

	taggerung301 2009-08-07 05:29 pm UTC (link)
	can't really say that I blame Ben there seems a little out of character, but after all of the shit that happened in Ultimatum (and I mean the terrible things that happened to the world, not the series itself), that retribution doesn't seem too out of place (Reply to this) (Thread)

	sd_mouser 2009-08-07 06:18 pm UTC (link)
	Since the change Ben's been trying his best to not be mad at his best friend for making him a monster. Now he finds out that the one REALLY responsible it the TRUE monster. That killing him really IS the right thing to do. It's not like he was looking for an excuse, this is just the final nail him the coffin he built himself. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

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taggerung301, 2009-08-07 06:22 pm UTC

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lynxara, 2009-08-08 03:42 pm UTC

	darkknightjrk 2009-08-07 05:31 pm UTC (link)
	Okay, now that is a good scene--Ben's motivation to kill him makes a lot more sense. But I'd think some mention would've been said in, y'know, the actual main story. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	readeriif 2009-08-07 05:42 pm UTC (link)
	Well, something had to be axed in order to fulfill the quota of gratuitous violence. What's something like plot and reasoning compared to gore and sensationalism, eh? (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

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lultam, 2009-08-07 05:53 pm UTC

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lynxara, 2009-08-08 08:14 pm UTC

billy_vagrant
2009-08-07 05:34 pm UTC (link)

Wow. Now, I usually don't like to waste time complaining about the storylines I don't like, but Ultimatum has been ... a special case. Everything about it has been so ... "blargh," from all the pointless character death to the series of "rape the dog" moments. And even given the context, I'm having a hard time seeing Ben Grimm as a bare-handed murderer, regardless of what Reed tells him he discovered via non-specified Science-ing.
However, the part that really sticks in my craw for some reason, is that Reed said "Douchey." For whatever reason, I just can't stand that Reed said "Douchey."

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taggerung301
2009-08-07 05:55 pm UTC (link)

I agree and disagree with you here

I wholeheartedly agree that "Douchey" is not a word Reed would use

I disagree that Ben wouldn't kill Doom. I knew Doom was going to die. The second I read that he was the one who pretty much caused all of this, I knew that someone was going to finish him off since everyone else and their brother seemed to be going down with the ship. I figured that it would either be the Fantastic Four or the Ultimates who did the deed. My money was more on someone like Nick Fury taking Doom down, but the Thing obviously proved to be just as capable.

Doom is pretty much responsible for killing thousands (maybe millions? I don't know the number here) of people around the world because of what he started. It wasn't like they had just foiled some grand scheme of his and just avoided catastrophe - Ben can probably see bodies outside of his window in New York. (The one strong point of Ultimatum, in my opinion, is that it accurately portrayed just how much carnage and destruction would come about if people with extreme super-powers decided to go at each other tooth and claw)

Since he fought against doom with the FF so many times, Ben probably felt somewhat obligated to do it. Doom was "his" villian, so to speak, so I'm guessing that he felt like it was his responsibility to end him.

And as for the "bare-handed murderer" . . . well, I can't really see any other way for Ben to kill Doom. His powers are basically his strength and invincibility.

But that's just my perception
how do you see it?

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billy_vagrant, 2009-08-08 02:31 am UTC

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taggerung301, 2009-08-08 05:51 pm UTC

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lynxara, 2009-08-08 08:15 pm UTC

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taggerung301, 2009-08-08 09:56 pm UTC

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lynxara, 2009-08-08 10:05 pm UTC

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taggerung301, 2009-08-08 10:34 pm UTC

legba
2009-08-07 05:35 pm UTC (link)

This doesn't agree with me.

Reed is super smart, and he knows Ben has always been there to haul his ass out of problems. And since they became metahumans, Ben has shown that he trusts Reed's judgement to the point where he won't question his directions.

So given the dialogue, there's no way that Reed isn't giving Ben a covert order to assassinate Doom. He's laying out the whole situation, making it extremely clear that Doom needs to die, that this would be a good thing, but that he's too weak to do so. If only someone could come and haul his butt out of the swirly/kill Doom!

At best he's manipulating his life-long friend into doing his dirty work for him, at worst the Reed/Ben relationship just went from strong friend/smart friend to master/minion.

Ben killing Doom never sat that well with me in the first place, but this doesn't do anything to make me feel better about it.

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	taggerung301 2009-08-07 06:23 pm UTC (link)
	i see what your saying, but unless there is more evidence in later panels showing that Reed was maniuplating Ben, I would just say that Reed was being oblivious Reed is super smart, but from what I can tell, he can actually miss out on a lot of obvious things (Reply to this) (Parent)

	nezchan 2009-08-07 06:28 pm UTC (link)
	Will no one rid me of this meddlesome priest? Still, this whole thing still comes off as the Thing being made to do something horrible in Ultimatum and the writer of FF having to come up with a reason for it. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

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neuhallidae, 2009-08-07 06:58 pm UTC

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nezchan, 2009-08-07 07:07 pm UTC

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legba, 2009-08-07 07:33 pm UTC

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ashtoreth, 2009-08-08 02:21 am UTC

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lbd_nytetrayn, 2009-08-08 06:43 am UTC

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lynxara, 2009-08-08 03:45 pm UTC

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lbd_nytetrayn, 2009-08-08 07:57 pm UTC

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lynxara, 2009-08-08 08:13 pm UTC

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proteus_lives, 2009-08-08 07:12 am UTC

unknownscribler
2009-08-07 07:02 pm UTC (link)

Yeah, that was the vibe I was getting from that too -- Reed, realizing his limitations, effectively killed Doom by proxy.

However, I think both Ben and Reed knew that even knowing it had to be done Reed would never be able to outright ask Ben to do it. And think it speaks volumes that (a)he doesn't have to, and (b)Ben's willing to do the deed himself. Though in all honesty I don't think any of the 4 would be able to bring themselves to bring the problem to an arse-hat like Fury or anyone associated with him given what happened when he and Doom teamed up to fuck with Reed's dimensional probes. Ultimately it was a Fantastic 4 problem and Ben was the only one at the end in a position to do anything about it.

And snuffing Doom was utterly the right thing to do. Fuck all that psycho history stuff, Ultimatum was something he could never ever be allowed to walk away from.

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nezchan, 2009-08-07 07:09 pm UTC

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legba, 2009-08-07 07:23 pm UTC

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taggerung301, 2009-08-07 07:37 pm UTC

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tavella, 2009-08-07 09:42 pm UTC

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legba, 2009-08-07 10:14 pm UTC

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tavella, 2009-08-07 10:20 pm UTC

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lynxara, 2009-08-08 03:46 pm UTC

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tavella, 2009-08-08 08:07 pm UTC

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lynxara, 2009-08-08 08:22 pm UTC

	esc0 2009-08-08 02:11 am UTC (link)
	Yea I read it as Reed trying to manipulate Ben into considering killing Doom (Reply to this) (Parent)

	xammax 2009-08-07 05:35 pm UTC (link)
	Wow... a death that makes sense, and was given the actual weight and time it deserves. Not in this company poser. (Reply to this)

	(Anonymous) 2009-08-07 06:06 pm UTC (link)
	Kudos to the artist who gave Ben that amazing last panel. It can't be easy to give a man with a giant rock face such pointed emotionality. That whole last page is just amazing. (Reply to this)

	valtyr.dreamwidth.org 2009-08-07 06:29 pm UTC (link)
	I bloody hate it when they use SCIENCE! to justify immoral actions. I didn't like them using psychohistory to justify Civil War, and I don't like it now. Whenever people use science to justify doing stuff they know is wrong it ends badly. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	As much as I liked Isaac Asimov's Foundation series as a kid ... box_in_the_box 2009-08-07 08:09 pm UTC (link)
	... I realize that I can't fucking stand it now, precisely because of the psychohistory, and worse yet, far too many people have taken psychohistory to heart in their own stories. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

Re: As much as I liked Isaac Asimov's Foundation series as a kid ... -

valtyr.dreamwidth.org, 2009-08-08 12:05 am UTC

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mxlm, 2009-08-07 10:57 pm UTC

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valtyr.dreamwidth.org, 2009-08-08 12:01 am UTC

	colonel_green 2009-08-07 07:04 pm UTC (link)
	Wow, that feels in character and has some real weight to it. It's like the exact opposite of Loeb's story. (Reply to this)

	thanekos 2009-08-07 07:17 pm UTC (link)
	this + Ultimate Dormammu = pretty neat read (Reply to this)

	halloweenjack 2009-08-07 08:48 pm UTC (link)
	This was actually good. Joe Pokaski must be the Anti-Loeb. (Reply to this)

	xdoop 2009-08-07 10:12 pm UTC (link)
	Is Ultimate!Doom more evil than 616!Doom? Because I can't see 616!Doom wiping out entire races like Reed mentions. (Reply to this)

	zordboy 2009-08-08 12:53 am UTC (link)
	I just... don't trust Reed and science. Indeed, you know, any time I now here, "Science has told me all the possible alternatives!" it's like, oh come on now. To be fair, someone needed to bite it for inflicting this garbage on the world. Whatever. (Reply to this) (Thread)

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ashtoreth, 2009-08-08 02:24 am UTC

	ashtoreth 2009-08-08 02:27 am UTC (link)
	I will never approve of humanity's defenders just going off and assassinating whomever they feel like without some kind of authority. Period. That said, why is Ben wearing different clothes when he exits Doom's castle? Even given the rip that would indicate a blast that took off the top half, I don't see the white stripe in the middle. :/ (Reply to this) (Thread)

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zegim, 2009-08-08 04:44 am UTC

	cmdr_zoom 2009-08-08 03:14 am UTC (link)
	"She's a hero, you see. She's not like us." "Us?" (Reply to this)

	proteus_lives 2009-08-08 07:13 am UTC (link)
	Always hated UltDoom. He was faaaar too one-dimensional. (Reply to this) (Thread)

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lynxara, 2009-08-08 03:48 pm UTC

naebler
2009-08-08 11:30 pm UTC (link)

I didn't like Ultimatum. I enjoyed the early Ultimate line but I found Ultimatum lacking and rather over the top.

That being said, I think this is one of the truest scenes of Ben Grimm I have ever seen. He knows his best friend is a good person, misguided and often distractable, inside he is a good person. Ben has spent his whole childhood and life in an attempt to protect Reed from choices that would break him or hurt him. So he, the "Monster" on the team, as is a repeated theme through out the Ultimate line, protects his friend from becoming like him with one last action. Out of all the suck and needless bullshit of this line I have to say this one moment is something I find completely IC for Ultimate Ben Grimm, and even something I would see 616 Grimm doing.

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