InsaneJournal

Tweak says, "No, Alf, no!"

kingrockwell (kingrockwell) wrote in scans_daily,
@ 2009-07-06 02:12:00

Entry tags:

char: question/renee montoya, char: question/vic sage, creator: greg rucka, creator: joe bennett, creator: keith giffen, publisher: dc comics, title: 52

Vic and Cigarettes, not good friends.
So, I've had a bit of a crazy week, which is why my next It's Not About The Answers post has been delayed, but two things that kind of slipped in struck me. The first is that I started smoking again because this has been a crazy week, and I needed it. The second is I started reading 52 because I hadn't bothered with the parts that don't involve Vic and Renee before.

Taken together, this is kind of funny, and makes my affection for the series even funnier.

This is typical Vic. He meets an enemy and starts to dig in. He finds everything he can about this new enemy to uncover whatever evils he can, and he uses that to expose this enemy, discredits it. But, no longer being in front of the cameras, he has to work with a smaller audience, work with what's in front of him. So, since he can't say all of this on television, he pesters Renee.

But with the constant lecturing, and developments that come later in the series (foreshadowed by Renee's line there), it's almost like he's lashing out, like this is the way his old anger is manifesting, through his new disposition, in the face of dying. Like he's trying to take the cause of it down with him, or something, even though he should've known the risks going in, and his old beliefs, if any bit of them remain, might contend that the responsibility for the actions which brought him to this point were his own.

So, while on the surface, Vic is lashing out against cigarettes, isn't he really just lashing out at himself? :D

I'll hopefully get the Blue Beetle #5-7 post done before this week's up. Things are lining up weirdly and I don't have nearly as much downtime as the vacation gave me, but we'll see.

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	gargoylekitty 2009-07-06 07:47 am UTC (link)
	I hadn't bothered with the parts that don't involve Vic and Renee before I am guilty of also doing this the first time I read each issue(saving the rest of the story until I had a couple issues of it to read together). (Reply to this)

jlroberson
2009-07-06 09:40 am UTC (link)

In regard to Vic: it wasn't smoking that killed him, was it? It was the gas he changed with.

I stopped smoking two weeks ago this Wednesday. I switched to this stuff called Snus, which is a hell of a lot less toxic than cigarette tobacco(it's cured differently; and by the way, I smoked American Spirit, which is supposedly additive-free), and has a much higher hit of nicotine but you can't stand to do it nearly as often. My thought was that if I just want the nicotine, why not minimize the damage. Especially as I live in a nonsmoking-fascist building and they were getting wise. (I considered the e-cigarette but I'm unsure about the solution you breathe)

One thing I've noticed, now that it's just the nicotine, that a lot of little discomforts in my body that have built up a long time, and that I couldn't find a reason for(and that have nothing to do with respiration, more like skin dryness, lousy digestion, etc.), have cleared up. It does a lot more than just make you cough.

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	arilou_skiff 2009-07-06 10:51 am UTC (link)
	On the other hand, Snus does tend to discolorate your teeth even more than smoking does. Although I guess that might be a fair trade. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

jlroberson
2009-07-06 11:08 am UTC (link)

Well, I also chew sugarless gum a lot, and brush my teeth 3 times a day. So hopefully that minimizes it. I dunno, there was always the massive amounts of coffee, so...they're already under attack. It would suck to get extra years, but with awful teeth.

I am interested in what anyone who's used e-cigs thinks.(I also dimly remember an Al Jaffee invention remarkably like them, but don't have that MAD anymore...)

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	kingrockwell 2009-07-06 01:56 pm UTC (link)
	I dunno after Snus in particular, but chewing tobacco has been known to causes mouth and throat cancer. I used to work at a gas station and had a customer who, him a chewer and me a smoker, joked with me that if it wasn't one thing it was another. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

Oh Believe Me, I Read Up on It Before Switching

jlroberson
2009-07-06 10:24 pm UTC (link)

Snus isn't the same as chewing tobacco. For one thing, it's cured in a way that's different--it's the curing process that's most responsible for creating active carcinogens. It's actually been studied pretty extensively in Sweden, where it's used a lot, and, there's no higher incidence that's been found of any kind of cancer among them versus the general population. The only scientists who object to Snus, it appears, are ones who object to any use of tobacco at all.

It's not totally safe. But it's probably the safest form tobacco takes. (and if I use more than one every two hours, I get sick to my stomach, so it's self-limiting) I just couldn't go cold turkey. Then my concentration would be so dead I would not be able to draw and would, well, only be capable of posting here!

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	Re: Oh Believe Me, I Read Up on It Before Switching seawolf10 2009-07-07 06:03 am UTC (link)
	Don't ever so much as put yourself in a situation where you might swallow it, though. Chewing tobacco's bad enough -- and if this Snus stuff hits harder than chewing tobacco, you'd probably start puking up bits of your digestive system. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	filbypott 2009-07-06 12:41 pm UTC (link)
	In regard to Vic: it wasn't smoking that killed him, was it? It was the gas he changed with. He had metastasized lung cancer, though they didn't explicitly say whether it was the smoking or the gas. Could have been either or both, but he attributed it to the smoking. (Reply to this) (Parent)

kingrockwell
2009-07-06 01:53 pm UTC (link)

I used to smoke Camel Turkish Royals, so the tax-hike hit me pretty hard. I couldn't smoke any other kind because I'd grown so used to the Royals everything else felt like air, and I had to light it with a wood match or I couldn't stand the flavor. A month and a half without broke of those two habits, so now I smoke Pall Mall, for ubiquity and price.
I have never heard of American Spirit.

As far as the cause of his lung cancer, it is attributed to smoking, though I always thought it would be a weird twist if it was the bonding gas. Renee's still using the gas, so if that was it they never stopped with it.

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I'm Going To Save You Money On Death

jlroberson
2009-07-06 10:18 pm UTC (link)

I probably shouldn't say this, but good lord you shouldn't be smoking Pall Malls. A suggestion: for the past seven years, I'd been making them. There's a little machine Rizla makes--not a rolling machine exactly--that costs about 5 bucks in most tobacco shops. With it you buy a can of tobacco--I suggest AS--and a box of tubes. They're not papers, they're empty cigarettes, complete with filters. You put the tobacco in the device, tamp it down a bit, put the tube on the end, and pull.(It works a little like making a sausage) Voila, perfectly good cigarette.

Saved me a fortune for a long time, and though the price went up it's still LOTS less expensive than buying them by the pack, and they're better smokes and not as damaging. Let me know if you try it & what you think.

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	volksjager 2009-07-06 12:09 pm UTC (link)
	That's clasic The Question , someone who probobly is his own worse enemy. Lots of self loathing. Then again there are few things worse than a EX-smoker... (Reply to this) (Thread)

	jlroberson 2009-07-06 12:45 pm UTC (link)
	If they're assholes to those that do. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	volksjager 2009-07-06 05:36 pm UTC (link)
	Yes. and others as well they can be all judgemental suddenly about everything. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	jlroberson 2009-07-06 10:28 pm UTC (link)
	I hope I don't do that. I have noticed I'm compelled now to look away when people smoke. But I would rather it didn't turn me into a prig. Almost two weeks and I'm not wanting them, though, so whew. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	mysteryfan 2009-07-06 01:30 pm UTC (link)
	I like the cigarette brand name... (Reply to this) (Thread)

kingrockwell
2009-07-06 02:03 pm UTC (link)

Coming up with fake cigarette brands for use in comics is always fun, I can hardly fault who ever did that one. Now how Renee's pulling that cigarette out of the pack bothers me, as it doesn't feel particularly natural, and if you can get the top of the pack to bend back that far it will usually have gotten too flimsy to stand the pack up. I'm not sure what level this failure occurred at, whether it was in Rucka's script, Giffen's breakdowns, or just Bennett's pencils, but it won't quit bugging me!

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	mysteryfan 2009-07-06 02:36 pm UTC (link)
	Not faulting. I like fake product brands of many kinds. No Laramie (and Laramie Jr.), but Guardian's pretty darn good. That's a well-rendered box and hand, plus smoking as story focus point, but the angle seems odd to me. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	kingrockwell 2009-07-06 05:43 pm UTC (link)
	It's the angle, but it's also how inorganic her movement feels because of that angle. The rendering I have no problem with, it's the movement. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	mysteryfan 2009-07-06 06:31 pm UTC (link)
	Oh yeah. Agreed. The angle of her movement. People don't pull out cigarettes like that. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	kingrockwell 2009-07-06 06:47 pm UTC (link)
	Yeah, that's exactly what's bugging me. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	jlroberson 2009-07-06 10:20 pm UTC (link)
	Tarantino has one: Apple Cigarettes. He tosses them into almost every film. (Reply to this) (Parent)

thebigapricot
2009-07-06 03:15 pm UTC (link)

I do love them together. And of course he's lashing out at himself. No one can have that level of cynicism without at least a dollop of self-hatred.

I like how Renee looks so cool smoking in that last panel. And then in the next one she sees Kate and she's all goofy.

See smoking doesn't make you cool, you make yourself cool.

Well, that's what they told us in school. And of course that didn't stop me from smoking. But it's bad, so quit.

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	jlbarnett 2009-07-06 05:37 pm UTC (link)
	actually she's looking smug, because she is really enjoying blowing that smoke in Vic's face to shut him up. (Reply to this) (Parent)

kingrockwell
2009-07-06 05:49 pm UTC (link)

The oh-god-it's-her panel does work in context, but I can't stand looking at it (and hence, cut it) because it's too close to the cupie-doll faces Bennett drew everyone with in Birds of Prey. His art is a lot more tolerable in 52 because he has Keith Giffen choosing his angles and Jack Jadson inking his work into something less ugly, but when I'm reminded that I'm still reading a book drawn by Joe Bennett I get bad flashbacks.

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	aaron_bourque 2009-07-06 04:03 pm UTC (link)
	That just makes me shake my head and wonder what in the fuck were people thinking putting all that shit in something meant for consumption. I mean, I know you don't eat it, but: POISON GASES. POISON METALS. INDUSTRIAL CORROSIVES. ETC. WHAT. THE. FUCK. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	jlroberson 2009-07-06 10:20 pm UTC (link)
	Believe it or not? To help the flavor. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	aaron_bourque 2009-07-07 12:53 am UTC (link)
	They couldn't have put, I dunno, sugar in it? (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	Actually, some companies make flavored cheap cigars. seawolf10 2009-07-07 06:15 am UTC (link)
	I find Phillies have the best taste -- click through all three pages of inventory, see if there's something you'd like. http://www.tophatcigar.com/a.cfm//Machine-Made-Cigars/Phillies-Cigars-Cheap-Cigars-Cigar-Tobacco//page/3/ Pipe tobacco is often flavored as well, if that's more up your alley. I can personally attest that it's also the cheapest smoking option. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	seawolf10 2009-07-07 06:08 am UTC (link)
	Yeah, that's incorrect. I've smoked cigarettes, cigars, and pipes. Cigarettes taste worst out of all three. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	jlroberson 2009-07-07 06:16 am UTC (link)
	I didn't say that was the result, it's the professed intent. (Reply to this) (Parent)

seawolf10
2009-07-07 06:06 am UTC (link)

Part of the toxic additives are from the insecticides sprayed on it when it's growing, and the process used to dry/cure/preserve the tobacco. The rest of the additives so the cigarette companies can use as little actual tobacco as possible -- keeps costs low, and all that.

Pipes are the best thing to smoke if you need a nicotine fix, and cigars are a close second. Just stay away from cigarettes.

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psychop_rex
2009-07-07 06:21 am UTC (link)

The fact that Vic died of lung cancer because he 'didn't quit soon enough' always struck me as a little off. According to Denny O'Neil, Vic quit smoking in college, took them up again for a brief period - and I mean brief - probably only a few weeks - years later, then forcibly quit cold turkey when he got dumped in the river and amnesiafied. That doesn't say when he started initially, of course, but if one assumes that he started in high school, say at fifteen, that would mean - hmm - about four or five years smoking, then he quit. He smoked fairly heavily during the few weeks that he took it up again out of stress, but he was probably a fairly light smoker initially if he could hack being the Question in the first place, which would take a fair degree of athleticism. Considering that immediately after getting amnesia he did a full year of strict martial arts and health food-type training, which it would seem he more or less stuck to for the rest of his life, and which would counteract a lot of the damage, and also considering that it was at least five years afterward that he actually contracted the disease, it seems unlikely to me that smoking was the cause of his cancer. My guess is that the fact that he HAD cancer made him hypersensitive to what might have been the possible causes of it - hence his ragging on Renee.

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